StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) your the person playing with a 5 year rule everyone else in talking about in a life time, Context dear boy 5 year rule came from Gangzoom talking about "by 2020" actually. Everyone else is talking about "in a life time" because everyone else has a more realisitic timescale in mind. ok so it is was your speculation i was talking about 2020 aswell then?? in regards to your coal question i have no solid proof on coal prices other than my closet interest of steam locomotives and speaking to people who fire and drive them at heritage railways that the cost of coal is almost 4-5 times what it was in the time of British railways. Edited June 30, 2015 by StevoD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 ok so it is was your speculation i was talking about 2020 aswell then?? As I recall it, it was based on Gangzoom proffering 2020 and your own comment of; i would agree with that as things stand at the moment in time, but with the future and prediction of fuel hitting £1.50 within 12 months and in a handful of years time battery capacity will increase i think that gap with become alot larger "A handfull" of years doesn't equate to 100 to me, which is how we got onto this whole supply & demand disagreement. Even "in a lifetime" doesn't quite equate to 100 to me though, but at least that's close enough to accept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) ok so it is was your speculation i was talking about 2020 aswell then?? As I recall it, it was based on Gangzoom proffering 2020 and your own comment of; i would agree with that as things stand at the moment in time, but with the future and prediction of fuel hitting £1.50 within 12 months and in a handful of years time battery capacity will increase i think that gap with become alot larger "A handfull" of years doesn't equate to 100 to me, which is how we got onto this whole supply & demand disagreement. Even "in a lifetime" doesn't quite equate to 100 to me though, but at least that's close enough to accept. Right and what wrong with that? i havent said the petrol wont exist and EV will bit it have i? I just said the cost of running Ev will be less than petrol than it is now? Also you think 100 years is to short to be a life time? and your questioning things im saying? Edited June 30, 2015 by StevoD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Right and what wrong with that? i havent said the petrol wont exist and EV will bit it have i? I just said the cost of running Ev will be less than petrol than it is now? Really? You want to go round in this circle again? Can you not just go back and re-read what I've already written rather than making us both type it all out again in slightly different words? It's hot, I'm tired, lazy.and this brick wall is starting to give me a headache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Right and what wrong with that? i havent said the petrol wont exist and EV will bit it have i? I just said the cost of running Ev will be less than petrol than it is now? Really? You want to go round in this circle again? Can you not just go back and re-read what I've already written rather than making us both type it all out again in slightly different words? It's hot, I'm tired, lazy.and this brick wall is starting to give me a headache. re-read it same points still stand At the end of the day all petrolheads are going to sit there and cry that its happening and be in denial, trying to find reasons its wont work, Be it claming we dont have the infrastructure claiming we cant progress that far in 100 years Petrol will be cheaper so we should stick with it but the real world that doesn't have time for dan in his v8 german whip, it will be driving around in cars which cost them peanuts to drive, Regardless if there right or wrong governments are pushing EV, no im not saying we will all be in a Ev in 2020 or even 2070 for that matter, As i have said we have a good few decades of hybrids before we go full EV and no i don't mean a horrible puris think along the lines of a golf gti with 1.4 litre engine and electric motor making 350bhp or a nissan 150sx with a 1.5 litre 3 cyl and a electric motor, But i would estimate that by 2070 the majority of new cars on the road are EV if not all that doesn't mean MR stuck in his ways in a classic 350Z doesnt enjoy driving it at a weekend to a classic car show or someone is struggling on in a 2050 ford focus 0.5 litre twin cylinder hybrid thats 20 years old The Leaf/zoe is the Ford model T of its type (similar years in there centenary too) now the same progression will apply and by 2115 something new will be on the horizon as EV wont be viable anymore Edited June 30, 2015 by StevoD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliveBoy Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 So gangzoom/stevo lets say you have persuaded me the tech will be there and ev's are the future and by "x" 80% of the vehicles on the road will be ev's, where will we get all the electricity to charge them and how much will electric cost by then, will the government then put duty on it to compensate for lack of revenue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 So gangzoom/stevo lets say you have persuaded me the tech will be there and ev's are the future and by "x" 80% of the vehicles on the road will be ev's, where will we get all the electricity to charge them and how much will electric cost by then, will the government then put duty on it to compensate for lack of revenue? this has been dicussed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 So gangzoom/stevo lets say you have persuaded me the tech will be there and ev's are the future and by "x" 80% of the vehicles on the road will be ev's, where will we get all the electricity to charge them and how much will electric cost by then, will the government then put duty on it to compensate for lack of revenue? this has been dicussed Its been skirted around as no one has an answer So where is the electric coming from and how much will it cost, less than a litre of fuel now to comparative mpg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 So gangzoom/stevo lets say you have persuaded me the tech will be there and ev's are the future and by "x" 80% of the vehicles on the road will be ev's, where will we get all the electricity to charge them and how much will electric cost by then, will the government then put duty on it to compensate for lack of revenue? this has been dicussed Its been skirted around as no one has an answer So where is the electric coming from and how much will it cost, less than a litre of fuel now to comparative mpg? Dunno but i imagine there was person just like you in the 1915 when the idea of oil burning vehicles started coming about said the same thing trying to be clever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 So gangzoom/stevo lets say you have persuaded me the tech will be there and ev's are the future and by "x" 80% of the vehicles on the road will be ev's, where will we get all the electricity to charge them and how much will electric cost by then, will the government then put duty on it to compensate for lack of revenue? this has been dicussed Its been skirted around as no one has an answer So where is the electric coming from and how much will it cost, less than a litre of fuel now to comparative mpg? Dunno but i imagine there was person just like you in the 1915 when the idea of oil burning vehicles started coming about said the same thing trying to be clever So how can you be so sure its the future then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 So gangzoom/stevo lets say you have persuaded me the tech will be there and ev's are the future and by "x" 80% of the vehicles on the road will be ev's, where will we get all the electricity to charge them and how much will electric cost by then, will the government then put duty on it to compensate for lack of revenue? this has been dicussed Its been skirted around as no one has an answer So where is the electric coming from and how much will it cost, less than a litre of fuel now to comparative mpg? Dunno but i imagine there was person just like you in the 1915 when the idea of oil burning vehicles started coming about said the same thing trying to be clever So how can you be so sure its the future then? Because its the next logical step Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 So gangzoom/stevo lets say you have persuaded me the tech will be there and ev's are the future and by "x" 80% of the vehicles on the road will be ev's, where will we get all the electricity to charge them and how much will electric cost by then, will the government then put duty on it to compensate for lack of revenue? this has been dicussed Its been skirted around as no one has an answer So where is the electric coming from and how much will it cost, less than a litre of fuel now to comparative mpg? Dunno but i imagine there was person just like you in the 1915 when the idea of oil burning vehicles started coming about said the same thing trying to be clever So how can you be so sure its the future then? Because its the next logical step Priceless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 What I struggle with more than Stevo's dodgy maths or Gangzoom's adoration for Tesla is how any petrolhead can be discussing the forthcoming potential domination by EVs as a GOOD thing. It's not. It's a horrible thing. They're passionless, no emotion, no involvement, no tinkering, no glorious noises, no smug satisfaction after a kick to the alternator gets them going again, no simple joy of an open road + lightweight car + manual 'box + just enough power to be fun, no strapping whopping great turbos to them just because you can, no fussing over the benefits of induction kit over panel filter, no struggle to get just right exhaust note, and no jaws dropping as you hear an Italian V12 drop two cogs and nail it past you for other reason than it sounds f*cking awesome. Ladies and gents, as a future that's about as appealing as sloppy seconds hanging out the back of Katie Hopkins in mid-tirade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 What I struggle with more than Stevo's dodgy maths or Gangzoom's adoration for Tesla is how any petrolhead can be discussing the forthcoming potential domination by EVs as a GOOD thing. It's not. It's a horrible thing. They're passionless, no emotion, no involvement, no tinkering, no glorious noises, no smug satisfaction after a kick to the alternator gets them going again, no simple joy of an open road + lightweight car + manual 'box + just enough power to be fun, no strapping whopping great turbos to them just because you can, no fussing over the benefits of induction kit over panel filter, no struggle to get just right exhaust note, and no jaws dropping as you hear an Italian V12 drop two cogs and nail it past you for other reason than it sounds f*cking awesome. Ladies and gents, as a future that's about as appealing as sloppy seconds hanging out the back of Katie Hopkins in mid-tirade. ^^^^ + a lot What was the biggest complaint about last years F1, lack of noise....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 So gangzoom/stevo lets say you have persuaded me the tech will be there and ev's are the future and by "x" 80% of the vehicles on the road will be ev's, where will we get all the electricity to charge them and how much will electric cost by then, will the government then put duty on it to compensate for lack of revenue? this has been dicussed Its been skirted around as no one has an answer So where is the electric coming from and how much will it cost, less than a litre of fuel now to comparative mpg? Dunno but i imagine there was person just like you in the 1915 when the idea of oil burning vehicles started coming about said the same thing trying to be clever So how can you be so sure its the future then? Because its the next logical step Priceless come on then Mr know it all what the future then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 So gangzoom/stevo lets say you have persuaded me the tech will be there and ev's are the future and by "x" 80% of the vehicles on the road will be ev's, where will we get all the electricity to charge them and how much will electric cost by then, will the government then put duty on it to compensate for lack of revenue? this has been dicussed Its been skirted around as no one has an answer So where is the electric coming from and how much will it cost, less than a litre of fuel now to comparative mpg? Dunno but i imagine there was person just like you in the 1915 when the idea of oil burning vehicles started coming about said the same thing trying to be clever So how can you be so sure its the future then? Because its the next logical step Priceless come on then Mr know it all what the future then I have no idea, i have never professed i have. I just simply believe at this time, for the many valid reasons presented from lots of people, i am not convinced, whats your problem with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 no your just a hypocrite You try to make look at me your picking on me post when you do it, yet now you call someone belief priceless/idea priceless Ilogikal aliveboy and ekona have actually made been fair in there points and returns all you can give is smerky comments like priceless and the crap you put in the second post your such a hypocrite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I have not been hypocritical, i have always said i dont think ev's are the future (not in out lifetime) and my points are fair (depreciation costs to fuel costs, battery tech, range etc etc), i havent picked on you, i have asked a question that you cant answer, i didnt say your beliefs were priceless, i said your comment of its the next logical step is priceless, its not an answer to anything, just because you believe it, doesnt mean everyone else must. If your going to believe in something so strongly (just like the op) at least be able to debate and answer alternative views without throwing all your toys out the pram because people dont agree Hey, i could just say, "your talking rubbish" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) They're passionless, no emotion, no involvement, no tinkering, no glorious noises, no smug satisfaction after a kick to the alternator gets them going again, no simple joy of an open road + lightweight car + manual 'box + just enough power to be fun, no strapping whopping great turbos to them just because you can, no fussing over the benefits of induction kit over panel filter, no struggle to get just right exhaust note, and no jaws dropping as you hear an Italian V12 drop two cogs and nail it past you for other reason than it sounds f*cking awesome. So is this why virtually every car manufacture is putting turbos on their performance car (and normal family run-arounds). The GT86 was designed just for people who wanted NA, lightweight car + manual gear box....It was well priced, well buit...Now if that is what all 'petrol heads' want than it should have sold like hot-cakes....Instead everyone went mental and started raving on about a 4wd, turbocharged Golf, with 4 exhausts (really??) and fake engine noise just to cap it off. Forget for a minute all the discussion about costs etc, just consider what you actually want in a 'fast' car.....Manufactures spend stupid amounts of money developing ever more complex power trains to that they can deliver faster 0-60 times along with better economy - a 8 speed gear auto-box now becoming 'standard' is testament to that...But why on earth do you need 8 gears?? Because the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) can only deliver optimum power in a very narrow power range, so without gears, your limited to a very low range of speeds. Than you have the issue of 'throttle lag', so as you press on the pedal and demand power, in order for that power to be generated, in an ICE engine you have to wait for the fuel pump to deliver more fuel to the combustion chamber, wait for the cylinder head to compress the fuel and air, wait for a spark to ignite, and finally wait for the resulting explosion to push the cylinder down and deliver motion.....All great and good, because that's what we are use too. So ICE drivetrains are hindered inherently by the need for gears, and throttle lag = This is physics you cannot get around it, hence the every more complex DGS/anti-lag systems. Now consider how an electric motor works - You don't need gears because power delivery and efficiency is pretty much 90% through out it's entire rev range - which goes from 1 - 140,000 (compared to ICE engine that at most delivery <20% energy efficiency in a 2000 rpm power band). When you ask for more power from an electric motor, electrical current flows into the conducting loops at higher rates, and the electromagnetic forces generated causes motion. So the rate at which power can increase (ie: Acceleration) is limited only by how quickly you can move charge from the battery to the motor.....Last time I checked electrical charges moves at the speed of light in perfect vacuum so your loss some speed in air ....But essentially the speed at which an electric motor can deliver max power is limited by how fast you can smash the throttle with your foot I appreciate the need for noise and drama, after all people still spend millions on horse racing, that does nothing for me, but people love it....Though I can imagine riding a horse at 40mph is probably a lot more exciting than driving any V12 at any speed. For some people they will always want noise/drama, which is fine, but for the majority I suspect an EV that can deliver more performance than an ICE car, for 1/10 the running costs will be a much more tempting preposition. What will motor-sport look like in the future?? I have no idea, but I can tell you I enjoyed playing Wipeout just as much as any driving sim. Remember the current EV are only generation 1 devices (Like the original iPhone). If Tesla a company that has little history in car building can already mass produce a 691bhp EV saloon, just 12 years after the company was founded, what on earth are they going come out with over the next 5 - 10 year.....Aside from MageLev trains, the current fastest high speed trains in the world are powered by Electric motors - The current output of these things stand at 12,900 BHP ICE powered diesel trains cannot anywhere near that kind of power-output. https://en.wikipedia...ailways_CRH380A The hinderance to EV motivation is power source - Which is why hydrogen fuel cell cars were seen as answer for a long time (These are still electric cars). BUT with the advent of cheaper and more powerful batteries, battery EVs cars have the potential to deliver performance figures no ICE powered machine can dream off. Apparently Tesla have pushed their machines to figures far above the quoted 691bhp, but aren't yet ready to deploy it in the market. It wouldn't surprise me if Tesla comes out with a 1000bhp machine just to aggravate Bugatti, the P85D came about because Elon Musk wanted his daily car to accelerate to 60mph just as quickly as his McLaren F1....So the 691bhp Model was just a side project - not a bad outcome I would say Rather than worry about the survival of V12 which only a minority of people are interested in (ie: members on 350z forums ), perhaps what we should be more worried about is how the 'mass public' whom upuntill now had access to 'fast' cars limited due to running costs/noise/lack of interest, will behave when give SO MUCH power. I suspect most of us on the forum have gone from lower power cars up to higher power machines, and I hope most of us here have a healthy respect of when/where to use excess power on public roads, and know the consequences.....BUT average Joe blogs whom upuntill how is use to thrashing a 2.0 TDI A3 whilst following you with-in 1 inch of your rear bumper because they have no real interest in cars, and think they can stop in 1 meter at 70 mph....Do you really want these guys behind a silent 691bhp machine ... This video sums it up, look the reaction of the guy on the delivery scooter 50 seconds in, his pulling out just after the P85D has gone full throttle in a pedestrian/built up area....If you did that in a V12 Lambo etc, all the noise/drama will attract so much attention people will know your about to behave like a T***T. But in a P85D, hardly anyone turns a head, until your about smash into them at 60mph+, the comment from the guy sitting in the front seat 'why do people buy Ferrari's' sums up my concerns. 691bhp in the hands of a guy who doesn't understand why people buy Ferrari's ... I'm amazed there hasn't been some horrendous accident in the states yet involving a P85D, but sooner or later it'll come, and than we'll have a new law to govern the max power-out put of EVs in some zone, a bit like the 'temporary' national speed limit that was set up after a few people went to fast on the M1 when it first opened Edited June 30, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) I have not been hypocritical, i have always said i dont think ev's are the future (not in out lifetime) and my points are fair (depreciation costs to fuel costs, battery tech, range etc etc), i havent picked on you, i have asked a question that you cant answer, i didnt say your beliefs were priceless, i said your comment of its the next logical step is priceless, its not an answer to anything, just because you believe it, doesnt mean everyone else must. If your going to believe in something so strongly (just like the op) at least be able to debate and answer alternative views without throwing all your toys out the pram because people dont agree Hey, i could just say, "your talking rubbish" Missing the point i see your little cry baby post of Internal combustion and quit being offensive, its pissing me off !!!!!! Fronted and followed by your post being offensive is what is hypocritical ,not your view But then saying that this is going very much the way the thread regarding homosexualty with you went, everything but your view was irrelevant and if people disagree with you you having nothing to do but be rude and offensive, a pull cheap shots like your priceless comment, rather than giving a competitive argument Very Narrow minded approach, If you dont have an idea or vision for the future how can you knock someone who has, at least the others could give a vision of there future rather than just knocking someone else and then going pffft i have no idea Edited June 30, 2015 by StevoD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I will leave you to it, as always, your welcome to pm me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) So gangzoom/stevo lets say you have persuaded me the tech will be there and ev's are the future and by "x" 80% of the vehicles on the road will be ev's, where will we get all the electricity to charge them and how much will electric cost by then, will the government then put duty on it to compensate for lack of revenue? this has been dicussed Its been skirted around as no one has an answer So where is the electric coming from and how much will it cost, less than a litre of fuel now to comparative mpg? No one has an answer because no one knows. Grid capacity is already a concern for energy companies without EVs. Hence the push for more and more renewable power generation. Like I've said, I didn't know a small solar panel on my house will actually generate all the electricity I'll ever need for domestic use - but you need to pair up the solar panel with a battery pack. If 20% of houses did this, suddenly your free up a lot of the strain on the grid. Equally I didn't know wind turbines are having to be turned off because they generate too much electricity at certain times.....Again battery technology to help 'smooth' out the inherent peaks/troughs in solar/wind energy sources will help. This is probably why Utility companies have bought up $800 million worth of Tesla 'Power-walls', from an energy company point of view, renewable sources such as wind and solar are cheap/free once set-up, so if they can make these renewable sources work better and start replacing coal/gas/nuclear power stations, they are in for a BIG jump in profits. After all wind/sun is 'free', unlike coal/gas/nuclear power stations which are very expensive to run....Let's just hope no-one from the government has been watching the Simpsons and come up with a 'sun' tax http://bgr.com/2015/05/08/tesla-powerpack-powerwall-battery-sales-estimate/ In the long-run, who knows, but that's part of the excitement As for absolute economy the Tesla P85D has an 'e' mpg of 88/84 - according to US measures, which is as good as it gets interms of accuracy. The Leaf 126/102 mpg = So the smaller, lighter, slower EV is more economical, nothing changes there compared with ICE cars. Edited June 30, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The ICE is inefficient, noisy, old hat, thirsty, dirty, and smelly. And I love them and hope they never die. Electric motors may be able to deliver 100% power and torque instantly at zero rpm, but all that means is you either need to limit it electronically with fancy traction control systems, or you sit there spinning wheels and wasting energy. The latter is pointless, and the former just further removes the driver from involvement. For the record, I don't hugely like fancy traction systems and torque vectoring in ICE cars either (I'm looking at you, GT-R and 488!), but at least they have the benefit of making pleasing noises and smells. Much like how the Cayenne supported the 911 and Boxster, I'll be happy if EVs exist alongside ICE to allow them to carry on being awesome. The nightmare is if they replace them altogether. Might as well make them all driverless and trundle along at 50mph everywhere, at least they'll be serving their ultimate goal then. Because that's where the EV is heading, and if you love the technology that much you'll be sharing that goal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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