A quick update on my electric Nissan :)

[ilogikal1]

i would agree with that as things stand at the moment in time, but with the future and prediction of fuel hitting £1.50 within 12 months and in a handful of years time battery capacity will increase i think that gap with become alot larger

 

But at the same time, demand for petrol will decrease as demand for EV's increase. Supply & demand dictates that EV prices will subsequently increase whilst petrol price will decrease. Thus nullifying that gap again.

Edited June 30, 2015 by ilogikal1

[Stutopia]

I'll be amazed if by 2020 VW/Nissan/GM don't all have a 200-300 mile range EV, in family hatchback form, that costs the same/less than an equivalent ICE car.

 

I'm intrigued, what makes you think that a combination of new technology and all the extensive R&D that goes with that will mean that the resulting product will become cheaper in the mid-term? Currently the Leaf is virtually double the price of the Micra, how will ploughing a lot of money into developing an EV that can still only do circa half the range of the comparable ICE bring down the price of said EV? Or do you suppose that the price of the increasingly reduntant ICE car will double as a result of selling in fewer numbers?

 

The depreciation and high purchase price is only an issue if you plant to actually own the thing, I'm not convinced that most people own thier cars outright, I don't have the stats but from the look of my car park at work and talking to colleagues, most are paying some sort of monthly payment. So if you can pay the same per month as you can for and ICE vehicle, but have virtually no fuel bills and no road tax (are they cheap to insure?), does it matter that it's not yours? Also, you get a new one every few years, which with the pace of change is perfect for the EV model of ownership as a second car, which let's face it is the only way you'd have one. You'd need a proper car as well.

[StevoD]

i would agree with that as things stand at the moment in time, but with the future and prediction of fuel hitting £1.50 within 12 months and in a handful of years time battery capacity will increase i think that gap with become alot larger

 

But at the same time, demand for petrol will decrease as demand for EV's increase. Supply & demand dictates that EV prices will subsequently increase whilst petrol price will decrease. Thus nullifying that gap again.

 

try buying 4 star cheap

[ilogikal1]

try buying 4 star cheap

 

Okay.

 

Retailers offering leaded petrol (specification equivalent to the old 4-star petrol): As well as being a member of the FBHVC, producers, importers and distributors of leaded petrol must hold a permit from the Secretary of State of Transport in order to comply with Motor Fuel(Composition and Content) Regulations 1999.

This UK legislation can be viewed at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/. In order to apply for a permit please contact International Vehicle standards at the Department for Transport at ivs.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk Anglo American Oil Company Ltd BH20 7QE 01929 551567 Dawson Engineering (Burley) Ltd* BH24 4EB 01425 402388 Nick’s Tyres CM15 9SB 01277 280329 Maple Garage HU11 4NA 01964 670392 Redhall Garage Ltd LE67 8HG 01530 222323 R E Mills Motor Engineers LE7 7NU 0116 230 2295 Renlut Properties Limited LL12 8DY 01978 352428 W Ganderton & Sons MK18 1AF 01280 813109 Stoke Row Garage** RG9 5QL 01491 680411 Park End Motor & Engineering Co. Ltd SE13 6TR 020 8697 2865 Esso Garage SG3 6JB Platts of Marlow SL7 2NJ 01628 890909 H J Taylor WR12 7PL 01386 852338

 

Now, why am I doing that again?

[StevoD]

try buying 4 star cheap

 

Okay.

 

Retailers offering leaded petrol (specification equivalent to the old 4-star petrol): As well as being a member of the FBHVC, producers, importers and distributors of leaded petrol must hold a permit from the Secretary of State of Transport in order to comply with Motor Fuel(Composition and Content) Regulations 1999.

This UK legislation can be viewed at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/. In order to apply for a permit please contact International Vehicle standards at the Department for Transport at ivs.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk Anglo American Oil Company Ltd BH20 7QE 01929 551567 Dawson Engineering (Burley) Ltd* BH24 4EB 01425 402388 Nick’s Tyres CM15 9SB 01277 280329 Maple Garage HU11 4NA 01964 670392 Redhall Garage Ltd LE67 8HG 01530 222323 R E Mills Motor Engineers LE7 7NU 0116 230 2295 Renlut Properties Limited LL12 8DY 01978 352428 W Ganderton & Sons MK18 1AF 01280 813109 Stoke Row Garage** RG9 5QL 01491 680411 Park End Motor & Engineering Co. Ltd SE13 6TR 020 8697 2865 Esso Garage SG3 6JB Platts of Marlow SL7 2NJ 01628 890909 H J Taylor WR12 7PL 01386 852338

 

Now, why am I doing that again?

 

Can you highlight the price i cant see it

[AliveBoy]

try buying 4 star cheap

 

Okay.

 

Retailers offering leaded petrol (specification equivalent to the old 4-star petrol): As well as being a member of the FBHVC, producers, importers and distributors of leaded petrol must hold a permit from the Secretary of State of Transport in order to comply with Motor Fuel(Composition and Content) Regulations 1999.

This UK legislation can be viewed at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/. In order to apply for a permit please contact International Vehicle standards at the Department for Transport at ivs.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk Anglo American Oil Company Ltd BH20 7QE 01929 551567 Dawson Engineering (Burley) Ltd* BH24 4EB 01425 402388 Nick’s Tyres CM15 9SB 01277 280329 Maple Garage HU11 4NA 01964 670392 Redhall Garage Ltd LE67 8HG 01530 222323 R E Mills Motor Engineers LE7 7NU 0116 230 2295 Renlut Properties Limited LL12 8DY 01978 352428 W Ganderton & Sons MK18 1AF 01280 813109 Stoke Row Garage** RG9 5QL 01491 680411 Park End Motor & Engineering Co. Ltd SE13 6TR 020 8697 2865 Esso Garage SG3 6JB Platts of Marlow SL7 2NJ 01628 890909 H J Taylor WR12 7PL 01386 852338

 

Now, why am I doing that again?

 

Can you highlight the price i cant see it

 

He's saying barely anyone is allowed to sell it, not that they're choosing not to sell it, so it's a different scenario.

[ilogikal1]

Can you highlight the price i cant see it

 

No, I'm a little too busy to go round phoning companies for prices of a redundant fuel type, especially one which decline was directly relating to legislation rather than a choice of alternatives, you know like we were talking about before 4 Star tangeant.

 

Unless you're implying that with the meteoric rise of EV's in the next 5 years that the Government is going to all-but-outlaw petrol along the way as well?

 

(Or what he said^^ )

[StevoD]

Can you highlight the price i cant see it

 

No, I'm a little too busy to go round phoning companies for prices of a redundant fuel type, especially one which decline was directly relating to legislation rather than a choice of alternatives, you know like we were talking about before 4 Star tangeant.

 

Unless you're implying that with the meteoric rise of EV's in the next 5 years that the Government is going to all-but-outlaw petrol along the way as well?

 

(Or what he said^^ )

 

you can still buy 4 star and last time i saw it was around 1.90-2.00 a litre, so your point of less demand lowers the price is erm invalid

[StevoD]

try buying 4 star cheap

 

Okay.

 

Retailers offering leaded petrol (specification equivalent to the old 4-star petrol): As well as being a member of the FBHVC, producers, importers and distributors of leaded petrol must hold a permit from the Secretary of State of Transport in order to comply with Motor Fuel(Composition and Content) Regulations 1999.

This UK legislation can be viewed at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/. In order to apply for a permit please contact International Vehicle standards at the Department for Transport at ivs.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk Anglo American Oil Company Ltd BH20 7QE 01929 551567 Dawson Engineering (Burley) Ltd* BH24 4EB 01425 402388 Nick’s Tyres CM15 9SB 01277 280329 Maple Garage HU11 4NA 01964 670392 Redhall Garage Ltd LE67 8HG 01530 222323 R E Mills Motor Engineers LE7 7NU 0116 230 2295 Renlut Properties Limited LL12 8DY 01978 352428 W Ganderton & Sons MK18 1AF 01280 813109 Stoke Row Garage** RG9 5QL 01491 680411 Park End Motor & Engineering Co. Ltd SE13 6TR 020 8697 2865 Esso Garage SG3 6JB Platts of Marlow SL7 2NJ 01628 890909 H J Taylor WR12 7PL 01386 852338

 

Now, why am I doing that again?

 

Can you highlight the price i cant see it

 

He's saying barely anyone is allowed to sell it, not that they're choosing not to sell it, so it's a different scenario.

 

its not though is it his point was as petrol wont be needed its price will drop 4 star isnt need its price went up as its a luxury a hard to find item,

 

If anyone thinks there will be 10,000 garages selling petrol in the UK when 80% of road users have converted into Ev i think your mad (its an opinion so its allowed), it will become a luxury item and we will pay threw the nose for

 

 

you sell 1 million barrels and make profit which for arguments sake is 10,000

now you struggle selling 200,000 and you need to make the same 10,000 profit but on 80% less stock only one way that's happening

Edited June 30, 2015 by StevoD

[Jetpilot]

Currently the Leaf is virtually double the price of the Micra, how will ploughing a lot of money into developing an EV that can still only do circa half the range of the comparable ICE bring down the price of said EV?

This is why buying cheap cars with big engines is fun: Fuel may cost you more, but you can get a hell of a lot of the stuff for the £££ you save!

 

Also taking into account of the example given of a 30k depreciation on a Tesla, it would "cost" you less to run an old smoker

 

But then all cars depreciate?

 

and where did the 30K depreciation come from on Autotrader

 

Do they? A mate of mine bought a GT3 a year and a half ago (above list), smoked round in it for that time and recently sold it for a profit, i know what i would prefer to own for a year and a half and so do you Same goes for another local fella, bought and Aventador, did the Gumball in it amongst other things, sold at a profit

 

The example was given by the op

 

If this "argument" as you put it, i prefer debate, there is not one reason to persuade me to get into one, they are not necessarily cheaper to run, their carbon footprint compared to ice is very very wishy washy, no more fun to drive etc Just its the future "allegedly" and unless your nostradamus, there isnt one person on here who can predict that

Edited June 30, 2015 by Jetpilot

[ilogikal1]

so your point of less demand lowers the price is erm invalid

 

Yeah, I mean it's not like supply and demand is an established economic principal or anything.

 

What you've found is one exampe of supply driven pricing, which tends to be a long term effect. You seem to be thinking long term, whilst I'm talking mid-term - largley because we're not even close to 80% of road users driving EV's and it'll be a while before we are.

Think of it in terms of diesel, which used to be cheaper than petrol, demand for diesel went up and the price followed at a larger rate than the less in-demand petrol which is now cheaper than diesel.

[ilogikal1]

you sell 1 million barrels and make profit which for arguments sake is 10,000

now you struggle selling 200,000 and you need to make the same 10,000 profit but on 80% less stock only one way that's happening

 

Most (sensible) businesses will opt for the smaller profit rather than pricing themselves so high chasing the same profit that they drive all their customers to the alternative and put themselves out of business altogether.

[StevoD]

you sell 1 million barrels and make profit which for arguments sake is 10,000

now you struggle selling 200,000 and you need to make the same 10,000 profit but on 80% less stock only one way that's happening

 

Most (sensible) businesses will opt for the smaller profit rather than pricing themselves so high chasing the same profit that they drive all their customers to the alternative and put themselves out of business altogether.

 

Not sure share holders would agree

[StevoD]

so your point of less demand lowers the price is erm invalid

 

Yeah, I mean it's not like supply and demand is an established economic principal or anything.

 

What you've found is one exampe of supply driven pricing, which tends to be a long term effect. You seem to be thinking long term, whilst I'm talking mid-term - largley because we're not even close to 80% of road users driving EV's and it'll be a while before we are.

Think of it in terms of diesel, which used to be cheaper than petrol, demand for diesel went up and the price followed at a larger rate than the less in-demand petrol which is now cheaper than diesel.

 

Water vs coke ?

Travelodge vs Hilton ?

Lidl vs waitrose

 

Supply and demand only works in cases like Apple where it's a desired or luxury item, supply and demand only reallly works when the supply is less of demand

 

Because less people buy jaguars than Ford's doesn't swap the price

 

So if you only have 10% of the supplier of petrol it will go up as less competation

 

 

 

 

 

[AliveBoy]

you sell 1 million barrels and make profit which for arguments sake is 10,000

now you struggle selling 200,000 and you need to make the same 10,000 profit but on 80% less stock only one way that's happening

 

Most (sensible) businesses will opt for the smaller profit rather than pricing themselves so high chasing the same profit that they drive all their customers to the alternative and put themselves out of business altogether.

 

Not sure share holders would agree

 

Course they will, lets make an example, if asda sell 100 tooth brushes for £1 and tesco sells 75 of the identical tooth brushes for £1.33, they will both have sold £100 worth of tooth brushes.

 

Now, as Asda are selling more tooth brushes than tesco, they can buy them in at a lower price, lets say 10p each compared to tesco's 15p each.

 

Asda - cost £10, sales £100, profit £90

Tesco - cost £11.25, sales £99.75, profit £88.50

 

sometimes selling for less works better

 

 

oh and steve, comparing ford to jaguar isn't right, supply and demand only works for comparing the same (or nearly the same) products. comparing a budget car to a luxury car doesn't work.

Edited June 30, 2015 by AliveBoy

[Ekona]

EVs don't make noise and they don't smell, ergo I never want one.

 

If I ever have a choice between manned EV and unmanned ICE, I'm going for a gun to shoot myself with.

[StevoD]

you sell 1 million barrels and make profit which for arguments sake is 10,000

now you struggle selling 200,000 and you need to make the same 10,000 profit but on 80% less stock only one way that's happening

 

Most (sensible) businesses will opt for the smaller profit rather than pricing themselves so high chasing the same profit that they drive all their customers to the alternative and put themselves out of business altogether.

 

Not sure share holders would agree

 

Course they will, lets make an example, if asda sell 100 tooth brushes for £1 and tesco sells 75 of the identical tooth brushes for £1.33, they will both have sold £100 worth of tooth brushes.

 

Now, as Asda are selling more tooth brushes than tesco, they can buy them in at a lower price, lets say 10p each compared to tesco's 15p each.

 

Asda - cost £10, sales £100 profit £90

Tesco - cost £11.25, sales £99.75 profit £88.50

 

sometimes selling for less works better

 

I have never heard of company who is happy to have a lower profit margin than last year ever

[brillomaster]

EVs don't make noise and they don't smell, ergo I never want one.

 

If I ever have a choice between manned EV and unmanned ICE, I'm going for a gun to shoot myself with.

 

what about if your options were a noisy, smelly, slow old American V8, or a silent, odourless, fast new European EV?

 

hmmm on second thoughts you'd go for the V8 lol. but my point is, different people value different things, some people like noisy smelly cars, some like quiet refined cars. To be honest dan seeing as you've just bought an old man barge, you were leaning towards the 'softly spoken, but carry a big stick' approach?

[Ekona]

Ah, but I also have the tiny buzzy irritating little Jap sports car too, I'm not sure I could live the 645 if I didn't own that as well.

 

Different strokes for different folks, absolutely. It's why some people STILL buy base Astras, after all!

[StevoD]

dan seeing as you've just bought an old man barge, you were leaning towards the 'softly spoken, but carry a big stick' approach?

 

this just confirms my theory of dan he goes to london on the pride parade day in a technicolour bmw talks to me about sucking on a pink one and now hes showing you his big stick

 

 

 

But like you said Us petrol heads of many areas of globe are so small and insignificant in our numbers that the world will learn towards EV faster and faster

Edited June 30, 2015 by StevoD

[mouthwash]

What are you all talking about?

[gangzoom]

I'm not preaching to anyone...

 

The reason I started looking at EVs is because I wanted something faster (and more reliable) than my 360bhp+ BMW 335i. On the shopping list were things like the XJR supersport and F10 M5's....But although I can stomach £50k of a used car I cannot justify £1k/month on going running costs on fuel/servicing/warranties etc

 

Hence when I saw you could get a 400bhp EV saloon with 300 mile range that costs under £10 to fuel I was interested....

 

Regarding EV costs, a 691bhp P85D starts at £79k, this is actually cheaper/same figure as a 500bhp+ super saloon from BMW/Merc.

 

On reliability Tesla give you a 8 year unlimited miles drivetrain warranty new, which is far more than any ICE car, and you don't even have to service the thing!!...mainly because there is nothing to service. Even a used Tesla S bought from Tesla comes with a 4 year, 50,000 mile warranty, again far more than the normal 1 year warranty you get from BMW/Merc.

 

The Leaf was a 'impulse' buy. I saw a thread on Pistonheads, did the numbers and realised selling the BMW now, will get me into a Tesla far quicker.

 

My Leaf is essentially on a lease hire contract, which equates to £260/month ALL In (That's everything, insurance, servicing and deposit etc). You find there are hardly any ICE hatchbacks for similar costs - Most require at least 6 month deposit, my Leaf deal was ZERO (0) deposit.

 

My logic was quite simple, if I really hated the Leaf it would just be cheap way to save money for 2 years, but as it turns out I love the EV drivetrain much more than I thought, and though it's saving me money now, it's tempting me more and more just to go for the 691 BHP Model S rather than the 'normal' 400 BHP version...

 

I genuinely believe EVs will become mainstream much quicker than people think. Unlike the fabled 'hydrogen fuel cell' car, battery EVs are making real progress and with the exception of Toyota most car manufacturers are investing heavily in the technology.

 

I appreciate all the sceptics and doubters, but if I've yet to see anyone actually complaining about how EVs drive....Reviewers moan about charging infurstruce, but that number is growing quickly. There are now over 3000 charging locations in the UK, and the numbers are increasing.

 

https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/

 

Local councils are running EV buses, one even caught on fire recently ...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-33273548

 

All the predictions about horrendous battery degradation, not been able to lower costs etc are simply not true, Taxi companies are seeing useful range even after 100k.

 

 

Every one is an adult here and can make up their own minds, but I get the feeling a lot of people have so many pre-held misconceptions about EVs that it's something they might not even consider looking at the details of one, regardless how much sense it makes....But again if we all just focussed on making rational decisions we'll all be driving £500 bangers

 

The only point I'm making with these threads is the fact I personally am loving EV ownership, even with the limited range/power of the Leaf, it's convinced me the future of the ICE as form of motivation is well and truly limited.

Edited June 30, 2015 by gangzoom

[Ekona]

you don't even have to service the thing!!...mainly because there is nothing to service.

Utter bobbins. Of course there's things to service! Please don't tell me that EV owners in general (not you, I'm sure you wouldn't as you're not daft) genuinely believe that they can buy one of these things and never worry about taking it to a garage for an annual look over? I can't believe people that buy these would be home mechanics either, as a rule.

[gangzoom]

you don't even have to service the thing!!...mainly because there is nothing to service.

Utter bobbins. Of course there's things to service! Please don't tell me that EV owners in general (not you, I'm sure you wouldn't as you're not daft) genuinely believe that they can buy one of these things and never worry about taking it to a garage for an annual look over? I can't believe people that buy these would be home mechanics either, as a rule.

 

What do you want to service???

 

There is no oil to change, no filters, brakes wear slowly due to regen. Even the 'coolant' doesn't require changing on the Leaf till 125k. Electric motors theses days are probably one of the most reliable appliances around, so unlike turbo charged ICE units which we all know are 'sensitive' at the best of times.

 

Yes suspension/tyres wear, but you hardly need to 'service' one to anywhere near the same degree as any ICE car.

[StevoD]

you don't even have to service the thing!!...mainly because there is nothing to service.

Utter bobbins. Of course there's things to service! Please don't tell me that EV owners in general (not you, I'm sure you wouldn't as you're not daft) genuinely believe that they can buy one of these things and never worry about taking it to a garage for an annual look over? I can't believe people that buy these would be home mechanics either, as a rule.

 

What do you want to service???

 

There is no oil to change, no filters, brakes wear slowly due to regen. Even the 'coolant' doesn't require changing on the Leaf till 125k. Electric motors theses days are probably one of the most reliable appliances around, so unlike turbo charged ICE units which we all know are 'sensitive' at the best of times.

 

Yes suspension/tyres wear, but you hardly need to 'service' one to anywhere near the same degree as any ICE car.

 

i guess brakes tyres lights, suspension more inspection than service but still need to be serviced

Edited June 30, 2015 by StevoD