gangzoom Posted June 28, 2015 Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) Did someone mention a 0 to 60 time of about 3 secs for not too much money If I was skilful enough I would love a bike, unfortunately I have a hard enough time staying upright on a pedal bike at less than 20mph, on a 'proper' bike I think I would end up been a organ donor very quickly...BUT if I was into bikes,this things would be on my shopping list. One of the fastest bikes (regardless of power-source) up pikes hill climb already, I have no idea how anyone just doesn't bin it every corner, with no noise to help you judge speed/power, these things look like they could have just come out of something like Wipeout.... Edited June 28, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted June 28, 2015 Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) i also wonder how many years untill we can wirelessly charge a car as the tech for wireless phone charging is starting to trickle out so having a large charging pad in car parks/drive ways to charges cars all the time there not in use, or even at red lights to give a quick top up There's a trial route of EV buses in MK using wireless charging. http://www.mkweb.co....tail/story.html BMW is also using in their i8 Forumla E safety car, and working on a commercial version. http://gas2.org/2015...ss-ev-charging/ Problem with wireless charging is you loss 'some' efficiency. By all accounts the efficiency of power transfer from your house/grid to an EV battery via a wire is close to 98% efficiency. Wireless charging is currently around 90%, it may not sound like much, but over time thats a big loss in efficency. Surprisingly the plug-in part of the Leaf is so easy, its no harder than plugging in your smart phone. I don't think you necessary need wireless charging, what you need is FASTER charging to cover long trips. Tesla superchargers can already deliver 170 miles or range per 30 minutes of charge, Tesla have just introduced a new liquid cooled cable, and rumours have it they are targeting 100 miles of range per 10 minute of charge...Which is getting closer to conventional ICE fueling rates. http://www.greencarr...rging-even-more The VW/Audi group are fully committed to EV development, the top guy at Porsche is directly targeting Tesla...So an hybrid/electric 911 will be coming... “Tesla has built an exceptional car. They have a very pragmatic approach and set the standard, where we have to follow up now.†http://insideevs.com...rd-must-follow/ Toyota on the other hand are trying to raise $4 billion additional investment in hydrogen fuel cell car production, so like it or not there is a whole raft of changes in the automotive industry, what we are seeing now are early generation one machines, the days of the ICE are numbered - certainly in its current form as a main source of motivation, there may well be a role for ICE to act as 'generators' for range-extender EVs....and I for one cannot wait to see what's coming down the line for me to spend my money on In regards to electricity generation, on our next house I fully intend on getting a 4 KW solar array and partner it with a home battery storage - probably at least 10 kWh. Excluding car charging, we use about 10 kWh of electricity per day, from what I understand even here in sunny uk, a 4 KW solar system can generate over 3600 kWh over a year, so essentially that's your entire years electric energy needs met by using solar panels. Money-wise, this doesn't make sense, I make no pretences, the reason I want to go down the solar panel battery route is because I want to explore if it possible to go completely 'off' grid, so I'm willing to pay extra...But solar panel technology is also developing at a rapid rate, so who knows, it may become possible to even charge your car off solar energy alone. Edited June 28, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 When will people realise that CHANGE IS NOT GOOD!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted June 28, 2015 Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 I didnt say a diesel electric lorry wouldnt have range, we are talking ev's and if so, why dont we have diesel electric lorries? You asked the question....Here's your answer....Though depending on your definition of 'lifetime' you might never see on a road near you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) So in the last few days there's been a flurry of rumours/news about battery development. Whilst it's true it took Lithium-ion batteries 20 years+ to come to market, with the stakes so high, new Lithium-sulphur and cheaper/more dense Lithium-Ion barriers appear to be developed at immense rates by lots of different people.... I'll be amazed if by 2020 VW/Nissan/GM don't all have a 200-300 mile range EV, in family hatchback form, that costs the same/less than an equivalent ICE car. I appreciate some people cannot see the potential of EVs and look past the current generation of EVs on the road, but I was a betting man I would go and buy a shed load of Tesla/Nissan/GM stock now....But I'm not so, instead I'll just keep watching from the sideline, and try to decided the best time to jump in and commit some proper cash into an EV (The Leaf finance is so cheap it's almost a negligible financial cost). https://cleantechnic...sts-reportedly/ http://www.autocar.c...ry-breakthrough Edited June 30, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grundy Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 So in the last few days there's been a flurry of rumours/news about battery development. Whilst it's true it took Lithium-ion batteries 20 years+ to come to market, with the stakes so high, new Lithium-sulphur and cheaper/more dense Lithium-Ion barriers appear to be developed at immense rates by lots of different people.... I'll be amazed if by 2020 VW/Nissan/GM don't all have a 200-300 mile range EV, in family hatchback form, that costs the same/less than an equivalent ICE car. I appreciate some people cannot see the potential of EVs and look past the current generation of EVs on the road, but I was a betting man I would go and buy a shed load of Tesla/Nissan/GM stock now....But I'm not so, instead I'll just keep watching from the sideline, and try to decided the best time to jump in and commit some proper cash into an EV (The Leaf finance is so cheap it's almost a negligible financial cost). https://cleantechnic...sts-reportedly/ http://www.autocar.c...ry-breakthrough You know you're preaching to the wrong people right? People don't buy 350z's because they're cheap to run... People don't buy 350z's because they have a family... People don't buy 350z's because they're quiet and subtle... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
350 Russ Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 So in the last few days there's been a flurry of rumours/news about battery development. Whilst it's true it took Lithium-ion batteries 20 years+ to come to market, with the stakes so high, new Lithium-sulphur and cheaper/more dense Lithium-Ion barriers appear to be developed at immense rates by lots of different people.... I'll be amazed if by 2020 VW/Nissan/GM don't all have a 200-300 mile range EV, in family hatchback form, that costs the same/less than an equivalent ICE car. I appreciate some people cannot see the potential of EVs and look past the current generation of EVs on the road, but I was a betting man I would go and buy a shed load of Tesla/Nissan/GM stock now....But I'm not so, instead I'll just keep watching from the sideline, and try to decided the best time to jump in and commit some proper cash into an EV (The Leaf finance is so cheap it's almost a negligible financial cost). https://cleantechnic...sts-reportedly/ http://www.autocar.c...ry-breakthrough You know you're preaching to the wrong people right? People don't buy 350z's because they're cheap to run... People don't buy 350z's because they have a family... People don't buy 350z's because they're quiet and subtle... People on here have commuting cars aswell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I'll be amazed if by 2020 VW/Nissan/GM don't all have a 200-300 mile range EV, in family hatchback form, that costs the same/less than an equivalent ICE car. I'm intrigued, what makes you think that a combination of new technology and all the extensive R&D that goes with that will mean that the resulting product will become cheaper in the mid-term? Currently the Leaf is virtually double the price of the Micra, how will ploughing a lot of money into developing an EV that can still only do circa half the range of the comparable ICE bring down the price of said EV? Or do you suppose that the price of the increasingly reduntant ICE car will double as a result of selling in fewer numbers? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Ev will be king but in 50-60 years i think we have got a long period of hybrids before then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Currently the Leaf is virtually double the price of the Micra, how will ploughing a lot of money into developing an EV that can still only do circa half the range of the comparable ICE bring down the price of said EV? This is why buying cheap cars with big engines is fun: Fuel may cost you more, but you can get a hell of a lot of the stuff for the £££ you save! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Currently the Leaf is virtually double the price of the Micra, how will ploughing a lot of money into developing an EV that can still only do circa half the range of the comparable ICE bring down the price of said EV? This is why buying cheap cars with big engines is fun: Fuel may cost you more, but you can get a hell of a lot of the stuff for the £££ you save! Also taking into account of the example given of a 30k depreciation on a Tesla, it would "cost" you less to run an old smoker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brillomaster Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) I'll be amazed if by 2020 VW/Nissan/GM don't all have a 200-300 mile range EV, in family hatchback form, that costs the same/less than an equivalent ICE car. I'm intrigued, what makes you think that a combination of new technology and all the extensive R&D that goes with that will mean that the resulting product will become cheaper in the mid-term? Currently the Leaf is virtually double the price of the Micra, how will ploughing a lot of money into developing an EV that can still only do circa half the range of the comparable ICE bring down the price of said EV? Or do you suppose that the price of the increasingly reduntant ICE car will double as a result of selling in fewer numbers? new tech is always expensive at first, same as buying a new tv - few years back even a small LCD TV was £800, now you can get massive ones for peanuts. As for CRT TVs, they're now dead, replaced by better performing, more efficient alternatives. Same with Cassette decks (unless you drive a 350z ) only reason why EVs aren't mainstream now is the length of time and difficulty in charging, and an electric cars range. Once the battery and the charging technology comes on (which it will do, all batteries are now smaller and hold more charge than previously) then 90% of the cars on the road will be EVs. I mean think about it, if you have a car that has the equivalent of 200bhp, has a genuine 400mile range and is as easy to charge as a petrol car is now, yet it costs a tenth of the price to run, you'd be mad not to. Companies which use fleet cars will be all over it - just need a company to invest a bit in a fast charge system, and it can hugely reduce its company car bill. All it would need is for someone like BMW to put a decent electric engine in a 3 or 5 series and it will sell like hotcakes - at the moment I don't want an EV cos they're all eco wagon family hatchbacks with no power, but put a 150-200 kW engine in a 5 series for example, stuff it full of enough batteries to give it a reasonable range, and sales of 520ds would stop overnight. Similarly put a 300kW EV engine in a 350z and enough batteries for a 250mile range, i'd be all over that - would do a lot more miles as well. have to say, insta-torque from an electric engine is an appealing prospect, throttle response of a decent NA engine, torque hit like a turbo engine with no lag. as I say, only thing stopping me is that the EV car I want (powerful, RWD, looks good, designed to be sporty) doesn't exist yet. the BMW i8 is certainly the closest, looks great (IMO) rwd, powerful enough - just a bit pricey at the moment. the depreciation argument is not a valid one - all new cars are pricey and depreciate like stones - you can pick up a 3 year old M5 now that has lost £40,000 in depreciation already. Edited June 30, 2015 by brillomaster 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Currently the Leaf is virtually double the price of the Micra, how will ploughing a lot of money into developing an EV that can still only do circa half the range of the comparable ICE bring down the price of said EV? This is why buying cheap cars with big engines is fun: Fuel may cost you more, but you can get a hell of a lot of the stuff for the £££ you save! Also taking into account of the example given of a 30k depreciation on a Tesla, it would "cost" you less to run an old smoker But then all cars depreciate? so not a valid argument a looking on nissan used cars a Gtr Loses £20k in a year no point buying one of them either then if thats your argument we might as well all drive around in £300 gumtree bangers as they will always have the crap value and where did the 30K depreciation come from on Autotrader 2014 Telsa p85 with 11k on a the clock up for 64,950 list price is 79,000 Edited June 30, 2015 by StevoD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodyboarder81 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Currently the Leaf is virtually double the price of the Micra, how will ploughing a lot of money into developing an EV that can still only do circa half the range of the comparable ICE bring down the price of said EV? This is why buying cheap cars with big engines is fun: Fuel may cost you more, but you can get a hell of a lot of the stuff for the £££ you save! Also taking into account of the example given of a 30k depreciation on a Tesla, it would "cost" you less to run an old smoker But then all cars depreciate? so not a valid argument a looking on nissan used cars a Gtr Loses £20k in a year no point buying one of them either then if thats your argument we might as well all drive around in £300 gumtree bangers as they will always have the crap value Being a bit harsh on your self there stevo...... Your zed must be worth a tad more than £300 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Stuff I don't disagree that the prices of EV's will fall and that their popularity will increase, but in 5 years time? Maybe 15-20 years time, but in 5 years the technology will still be in the midst of being developed and improved rather than primarily being made affordable (IMO), I just don't see how the price of an EV is going to drop so significantly whilst also increasing the practicality so significantly at the same time in such a short period, hence then question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 How much will EVs depreciate? What are the costs of the batteries? Is anything serviceable? It's all great buying new or used under manufacturer warranty, but who is going to fix and repair these things in the future? Certainly not you or I, and main dealers are going to be creaming the money in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 How much will EVs depreciate? What are the costs of the batteries? Is anything serviceable? It's all great buying new or used under manufacturer warranty, but who is going to fix and repair these things in the future? Certainly not you or I, and main dealers are going to be creaming the money in. But who fixed the first computers, Tv, Washing machiens etc, it will be the same way as anything New starts out manufactures train people who leave over time and the skills roll down hill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Early electronics were incredibly simple, and any idiot with a soldering iron can repair them. Who repairs modern TVs? Well, you don't, you throw the PCB or screen away and fit a new one, which again is easy to do (well, the PCB is anyway!). It's a good point, but EVs have an awful lot of proprietary software and hardware controlling them. That kind of stuff isn't going to be made available now, or ever. In fairness the same applies with modern cars and ECUs, but an engine is an engine and up to a point you can easily go standalone. I do not believe that will ever be the case with EVs and their complex systems, as to reverse engineer that is going to be a nightmare if not impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliveBoy Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 How much will EVs depreciate? What are the costs of the batteries? Is anything serviceable? It's all great buying new or used under manufacturer warranty, but who is going to fix and repair these things in the future? Certainly not you or I, and main dealers are going to be creaming the money in. I've heard rumours that with the prius, if the batteries fail a few years after the warranty has expired, that's the end of the vehicle as they're so expensive to replace. Not exactly energy efficient! Also, What is the carbon footprint of making the cars? The batteries are made up of lots of very expensive rare earth metals, which are currently mostly found in China, so they have to go onto massive container ships to be transported around. Currently the only electric car with NO rare earth metals in it at all is the tesla model S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brillomaster Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 that's a fair point, EV dominance is probably going to take a while, and yeah certainly no option for the home mechanic, or even an independent garage. In fact it'll probably get to the point where the people who can afford it, don't repair their cars - they'll just become like tvs, when it stops working, you buy a new one rather than try and repair it. but there are loads of people who buy new cars on finance, then when the deal is up, hand the car back and get a new one. so for them an unrepairable EV car would be fine, run it for 3 years under warranty, then hand it back. but equally, (so I've heard) theres a lot less to go wrong on an electric motor, it can't actually be that difficult to take out the core and replace it, so actually once the network is set up, it might be fine. generally, when a ICE engine goes bang that's it - car is scrap in most cases. but with far less moving parts, I cant really see a problem with an electric engine being maintained up to a million miles without too many problems (speculating here a bit) independent garages for electric vehicles don't exist at the moment simply cos there is no demand for them - if EVs were commonplace, there would be plenty of garages appearing to service them cheaply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) I recall something about your lease the battery pack from them and then when it dies they replace it, which is trying copying and pasting and it jsut messed it up https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/zoe/battery-and-charging.html Edited June 30, 2015 by StevoD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 But that's a constant cost, which doesn't look that much cheaper than a tank full of 95 Ron... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 But that's a constant cost, which doesn't look that much cheaper than a tank full of 95 Ron... true but if you use more than one tank a month (i know i do) and included road duty servicing costs (ie cambelts plugs filters etc) in a fossil burner i dont think it is as high over a year another thing to think about didn't Audi make fuel for water recently or was that all a scam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I was looking at it that someone using a ZOE or A.N. Other small city car is unlikely to do big miles in a month, as it'll all be small journeys. If that's the case, then a 1L car will do a lot of miles to a single tank. Two tanks of fuel may well get you as far as a single monthly payment on the batteries would, without any of the downsides of knowing you have a limited range with restricted charging opportunities if you decide to venture out of town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) I was looking at it that someone using a ZOE or A.N. Other small city car is unlikely to do big miles in a month, as it'll all be small journeys. If that's the case, then a 1L car will do a lot of miles to a single tank. Two tanks of fuel may well get you as far as a single monthly payment on the batteries would, without any of the downsides of knowing you have a limited range with restricted charging opportunities if you decide to venture out of town. i would agree with that as things stand at the moment in time, but with the future and prediction of fuel hitting £1.50 within 12 months and in a handful of years time battery capacity will increase i think that gap with become alot larger another thing would you rather A electric EV car that human controlled or a fossil fuel car thats driverless Edited June 30, 2015 by StevoD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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