gangzoom Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Don't forget hydrogen fuel cells also need platinum as a catalyst, so by nature is costly to mass produce. Unlike batteries, which don't use any precious metals at all in their production... It never ceases to amaze me just how blinkered you come across on this topic, it's quite mesmerising at times. Batteries are far easier to mass produce than hydrogen fuel stacks. Lithium and Cobalt are more abundant than Platinum - Ask your wife/significant other if what precious metal ring they rather have - Lithium or Platinum. I'm blinkered about EVs because once you start really looking into the arguments regarding moving away from fossil fuels than the solution is actually very clear and obvious. Don't take my word for it, go and read the research/papers your self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 It's not clear and obvious though, that's kinda the point. EVs have their place, clearly. They can be quick, they can improve their range, they can charge in seconds, they might one day even be light. However, they can never replicate the passion of an ICE. Ever. For me, that's the difference between driving for fun and mere transportation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeezeebaba Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I had a Sinclair C5 once, does that count Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) Don't take my word for it, go and read the research/papers your self. Rest assured I've not just taken your word for anything you've said so far on this topic. You seem to consistently say that any alternative wont work because of reasons X, Y & Z whilst simultaneously completely overlooking that reasons Y & Z apply to EV's, albeit in differing degrees both lesser and greater. It was entertaining at first but it's starting to wear thin to be honest. As Ekona said, it's not "clear and obvious" as identified by every single argument put forward against EV's in this thread for a start. The solution is actually very complex and confused, hence the continued reliance on fossil fuels on a massive scale. Edited July 4, 2015 by ilogikal1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 You seem to consistently say that any alternative wont work because of reasons X, Y & Z whilst simultaneously completely overlooking that reasons Y & Z apply to EV's, albeit in differing degrees both lesser and greater. It was entertaining at first but it's starting to wear thin to be honest. Feel free to ignore me as a crazy mad man wasting his time and money on something pointless 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Feel free to ignore me as a crazy mad man wasting his time and money on something pointless I'd rather continue to question the parts I have a different understanding or view of to try and understand where you're actually coming from, if you don't object that is? I'm not just trying to be a smart arse ****, I'm actually trying to understand why you're (seemingly) unwilling to acknowledge that EV's aren't now, and probably never will be, a perfect solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) I'm not just trying to be a smart arse ****, I'm actually trying to understand why you're (seemingly) unwilling to acknowledge that EV's aren't now, and probably never will be, a perfect solution. What do you mean unwilling to acknowledge what?? As far as I'm aware am the only person on this forum using an EV day to day, the Leaf has covered more than 1600 miles now in just over 3 months. I've yet to come across a single issue with regards to 'range anxiety'. Yes it's not very good if you want to cover 200 miles non-stop, but that the kind of trip I only do 5% of the time. Having two cars in the family mean that's a none issue anyway. In the next 20 months if I can persuade my wife I'll happily get rid of our Lexus for Tesla. I have no concerns at all about two battery EVs on our driveway - Given a Model S has close to 300 mile range if needed. As far as I'm concerned even the current generation EVs are already good enough to replace our old ICE cars. I'll carry on updating people with my EV experience. If you think am talking rubbish you can simply ignore me, as I've said before its my money I'm spending/wasting Edited July 4, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I'm not just trying to be a smart arse ****, I'm actually trying to understand why you're (seemingly) unwilling to acknowledge that EV's aren't now, and probably never will be, a perfect solution. What do you mean unwilling to acknowledge what?? That thing I said in the rest of the sentence... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spursmaddave Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 It's not clear and obvious though, that's kinda the point. EVs have their place, clearly. They can be quick, they can improve their range, they can charge in seconds, they might one day even be light. However, they can never replicate the passion of an ICE. Ever. For me, that's the difference between driving for fun and mere transportation. Much like a motor car could never replicate the passion and excitement of riding a horse... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) I'm not just trying to be a smart arse ****, I'm actually trying to understand why you're (seemingly) unwilling to acknowledge that EV's aren't now, and probably never will be, a perfect solution. What do you mean unwilling to acknowledge what?? That thing I said in the rest of the sentence... You mean the abit about EVs not been the perfect solution etc.... Again I point out I OWN and USE an EV everyday for the last 3 months, and I now no intention of spending a single £ on any ICE car ever again. EVs may not be 'perfect' but for me and through my experience of living with one they are a far more 'perfect' than any ICE car I've owned before. I'm slowly managing to convince my wife of this. She even admitted this weekend that the Leaf is quieter to drive than her Lexus. Personally I would rather replace the Lexus with a Tesla, rather than hand the Leaf back for a Tesla. Everyone is free to make up their own minds, my views and decisions are based on my personal experiences, which is what I'm sharing with people. You don't have to like it, but please don't try to make out I have no idea what I'm talking about. I may not be a chemist or engineer by trade but studied maths, chemistry and physics at A-level (Achieved A grades on all three topics - we didn't have A* grades back than ), and mechanical/aeronautical engineering at Cambridge with a view of trying to get a job at JPL was one of my 'fall back' career options. Though you can argue Imperial or MIT are just as good/better than Cambridge these days. So I'm pretty confident in my ability to critically appraise scientific literature- which actually is one of my day to day jobs. I don't know about you guys, but I certainly don't enjoy throwing away money, and when it comes to making £50K + purchasing decision, it's not something I'll do without ALOT of thought and consideration - Hence all the research I've done into Tesla. If it was your £50K would you not do the same?? My only 'doubt' about Tesla comes from my own indecision about spending an 'affordable' amount of money on lower spec 320bhp 70D Model S, or just go mental and try to gather up enough funds for the 691bhp P85D....I'm waiting for Tesla UK to get hold of a RHD P85D, and than I'll book a test drive. But will be bringing my wife along to make sure I don't do something silly, like buy a £80K+ car on the spot with money I don't have Edited July 5, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 That's a tenuous analogy, but in essence that's exactly what I'm saying. I haven't ridden for years, but even I can see why the horsey people enjoy hacking across the countryside rather than bimbling around in a car or on a bike.It's the level of involvement, I think, and it's also why having a manual 'box is usually so much more exciting than having a car with paddles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) For those interested here are some of the scientific literature on battery development and fuel cell development - You will need institution/subscription access to 'Nature' but your local library should be able get PDF copies if you request them - 'Nature' for those who don't know, is the most prestigious peer reviewed scientific journal on the planet - Its 'impact factor' is more than that of a leading medical journal like the 'Lancet'....Most established Professors dream of getting a Nature publication, so what they print is about as accurate as it gets with our current 'peer review' system. http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v5/n4/full/nclimate2564.html http://www.nature.com/news/the-rechargeable-revolution-a-better-battery-1.14815 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v414/n6861/full/414345a0.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v486/n7401/full/nature11115.html So as I've said, don't take my word for any thing, do your own research into the topic and than come up with your own opinions.... Edited July 5, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Doing my own little research and certainly not to the depth you have, I found the link below informative (sorry if this is a repost) http://www.edisontec...ectricCars.html I guess they will get there in the end with something that is affordable by all, but can I ever see me losing my petrolhead obsession...............nah, unless I lose my hearing - I like the noise from the good ole sporty petrol engines too much 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Isnt this like anything in life, if you want to believe something, you will, that is no personal dig at the op by the way, we are all guilty of it. Hell, some people believe walking down a beach taking out innocent people with an ak47 will result in a better world. I admire the op's enthusiasm, its not for me though, if battery tech, grid supply etc can all advance, why not hydrogen fuel cells, its just another problem to overcome, same as ev shortcomings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Essentially the point I was trying to express, the enthusiasm for the Leaf and Tesla appears to have overcome the objectivity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I still also maintain whilst there are such revenues to be gained from oil, be that companies, goverments, even entire countries, we will never see a truly viable alternative on any front, be that battery, hydrogen etc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 Essentially the point I was trying to express, the enthusiasm for the Leaf and Tesla appears to have overcome the objectivity. I'm clearly very enthusiastic, but that because when you look at the objective evidence, the solution is very obvious, hence my enthusiasm. Read the papers I've cited and draw your own conclusions - Those papers are by far the most un-biased and purely scientific literature on the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) Great looking car 120 mile range and $529k dollars, not so great being purely factual Edited July 5, 2015 by Jetpilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I'm clearly very enthusiastic, but that because when you look at the objective evidence, the solution is very obvious, hence my enthusiasm. Read the papers I've cited and draw your own conclusions - Those papers are by far the most un-biased and purely scientific literature on the topic. The solution to what? To a method of mass-transportation? Yes, I'll go with that. To increasing the lifespan of my hobby? No, it's the death sentence to motoring as it takes away everything that makes driving cars fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) I'm clearly very enthusiastic, but that because when you look at the objective evidence, the solution is very obvious, hence my enthusiasm. Read the papers I've cited and draw your own conclusions - Those papers are by far the most un-biased and purely scientific literature on the topic. I have read plenty of material on the subject, both biased one way or the other and impartial and I have drawn my own conclusions. I'm still not convinced that EV's are the solution so it's not "very obvious", it's not even slightly obvious - and I consider my own opinion to be objective because I have no vested interest in EV's being the solution or just being an alternative to ICE. Currently, as the technology stands today, EV's are merely an alternative to ICE suitable for a certain cross-section of the market, they are not currently the one sole solution for the whole market. That might change in the future, but the speculation about where that technology could be in the future is actually no different to the speculation about where ICE could be, or hydrogen fuel cells could be, or even any other alternative - currently known or not. The concept that EV's are the be all and end all is flawed. The concept that EV's could be a viable solution is in it's infancy, until the technology is readily available (not just a mid-to-long term plan of one company that may or may not actually get there) it's just not a solution; it's merely a theory. Edited July 5, 2015 by ilogikal1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 That is a bit spesh, great vid If you could get one for a sensible monthly payment, I could be tempted to turn sandal wearer 120 miles a day is way more than the average daily car commute, I wouldn't fancy a European Road Trip much though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Us petrol dinosaurs are no different to the reaction of many of the drivers/owners of horse-drawn carriages, once the 'carriages' offered more horsepower than the four-legged variety. But the good news is they are still around so there is hope for us who like the noise and gears etc and who might still be around when EV is the norm...........neigh? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 the reaction of many of the drivers/owners of horse-drawn carriages This seems to be a commonly used "discussion" point, but there is a massive difference, the motor vehicle was ground breaking compared to the horse and infinitely better on every level (barring perhaps environmentally), the battery powered ev is not better than ice, ev's have been around for many many years as per your post number 184 link, the only advancement is because of environmental pressure groups, not because it is in any way any shape or form revolutionary, as per horse to car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 waits for the single horsepower owners to throw in their two-pennies worth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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