Improving suspension / handling without lowering

[wmr1980]

Hi chaps,

 

I'm not particularly keen on lowering cars, certainly in London it's not fun. Furthermore, the ride quality/stiffness is pretty good as it is OEM. I understand the point of lowering to lower the centre of gravity and stiffening up helps prevent roll - but can make it more skittish.

 

However, since my car is only a weekend toy but also used as a GT, i.e. long trips in the UK and abroad often around the Alps or other parts of France, as well as occasional track days I'd be keen to hear your thoughts on upgrading the suspension/handling characteristics.

 

I actually think it handles really well as is, I've upgraded the bushes on parts of the car, which does help. I think the steering is not bad, relatively precise, and since upgrading the LSD it's actually made the handling far more precise and predictable and controllable. So perhaps as stock the suspension and geometry is perfectly good enough.

 

I'm not after spending any more money on the Zed at the moment as I've rekindled my love since the last tweaks (clutch and LSD), however I am keen to hear on your opinions of the Zed and its behaviour. :)s

[RobPhoboS]

Good tyres (MPSS for ex)

Bilstein B6 shocks (on OEM springs or slightly lower springs like the Tein S)

Eibach adjustable anti-roll-bar

+ Adjustable droplinks IF slightly lowered

Geo

 

(I also have other bits and pieces but I'd say that is a nice feel)

[Ekona]

Basically, exactly what Rob said. But to try and expand...

 

 

You can get a massive amount of change of handling feel (that's a peculiar term in it's own right, as everyone has a different idea of it!) just by altering the geo. You can have two cars, one very benign and one very precise, on the exact same OEM setup. It very much depends on exactly what you're after.

 

Do you want better turn in? Less slide from the rear? Less tyre wear? Stability in a straight line? Have a think. There'll be a set of numbers out there to give you that without buying other parts, unless you want/need extreme camber etc.

 

To give you an example, my 645 is about as barge as you can get. It wafts well, but it's certainly not a sports car. That said, there's a lovely balance to the chassis with plenty of feel so I had a custom geo put on it. Plenty of toe out at the front with as much neg camber as possible, and the rear was a fraction of toe out but with the tyres standing quite upright. That turned the car from stable barge to agile GT, as the rear is now much more mobile (which is what I wanted) and the front end just turns in perfectly. Certainly. I'd be changing that before buying anything else.

 

 

If you're after physical changes like softer over bumps or less roll in the corners, sadly you're going to have to cough up for extra bits. With the 350Z, I found doing the ARBs alone was quite a pleasant experience, and if that's enough then great. If not, then something like the BC Racing damper & spring set would be worth a look, as you can easily adjust the damping between road and track whilst still having the car sitting quite high up. My MR2 is a 80/20 track/road car, and much like you I don't feel the need to have it slammed to the floor as that wouldn't work on UK roads.

[nissanman312]

Dan with the sort of geo you describe to you still get decent tyre wear?

[Ekona]

Yes and no. I don't expect to get 20K miles out of a set, but if they'll last me a year then that's a price worth paying for a car that handles as I want it to.

 

As an aside, the BMW has now been taken by the wife who is using it as her car and she has no issues with driving said car with a fairly aggressive geo, as I know some people do get worried that they will make their car too twitchy.

[wmr1980]

Excellent replies. I quite like my Eagle F1 Asym 2 as they give good feedback - of course MPSS are best

 

Geo was set up the way I like, but that was before the LSD, now with the LSD there is a little more propensity for under steer initially, but am able to get on the throttle earlier so that it mitigates it but that balance could be improved - so good shout I hadn't really considered that, you've helped make me think about it.

 

I don't like cars which are excessively twitchy, unless it's a track car (this is a Sporty GT after all!) - I've had very very nervous cars in the past (with very low lock to lock ratio) and it's great, but not what I'm after now.

 

Not bothered about softer over bumps as it's okay as it is, and I like the stiffness it currently offers - I actually find the Zed really comfortable on long journeys, and still behaves well when pushed so don't want to compromise that.

 

Very good point about just basic geo - I need to experiment a bit. Being a RWD car I always find that under acceleration or constant speed since the car is pushing the front, which I think (it's been a while since I've studied this) means that the bushes push in the control arms making the tyres want to go "toe out"? On my previous RWD cars I seem to remember dialling in a small amount of "toe in" on the front tyres to even it out - I'm 99% sure that's what I did.

 

How adjustable are the Zeds geo in standard format? Presumably they have positive caster? I had the geo done about a year ago and I can't remember the readings.

 

I've always liked ARBS on my cars but didn't know if the Zed responded well to it or not.

 

To be fair I think I have (thanks to your help) answered my own question. Get the geo checked and dial it in to reflect what I'm keen on accepting that tyre wear will be compromised a little if I decide to change the toe/camber combo. The kaaz diff has transformed how it handles when dealing with corners so will need to take that into consideration.

Edited May 5, 2015 by wmr1980

[RobPhoboS]

IF you want to adjust the geo properly, you're going to require adjustable parts - upper camber arms etc

So technically you don't need to have new shocks but you will still need to spend a little anyway.

 

What mileage is your car ?

 

I ask because my OEM shocks had died at some point, and it was pretty much just riding on the springs which felt kind of hard.

Now that I have the B6's on there, it feels SOOO much better (I installed parts progressively, so I could feel the changes incrementally).

[nissanman312]

Good to hear your thoughts on the diff they're is a couple of us in hear trying to decide if it's a good move or not

 

I have put the arb on my 370z and its great now

I think worth it for sure

[wmr1980]

IF you want to adjust the geo properly, you're going to require adjustable parts - upper camber arms etc

So technically you don't need to have new shocks but you will still need to spend a little anyway.

 

What mileage is your car ?

 

I ask because my OEM shocks had died at some point, and it was pretty much just riding on the springs which felt kind of hard.

Now that I have the B6's on there, it feels SOOO much better (I installed parts progressively, so I could feel the changes incrementally).

 

Hi Rob,

 

It's done 80k miles. Changed the bushes of the banana arms and installed new banana arms too. Changed a handful of other bushes on the front suspension but that's it.

 

Suspension seems okay still for the moment - but with its age I know a time will come that I will probably need to tweak it.

 

I already scrape on some bumps and roads in and around London (which is why I try and keep out of London with it, but it's hard to when you just love driving the thing!).

 

I'm happy to spend a bit - but first I should revise/review the geo. Out of the box the Zed is a very capable handling car - I guess I just want to make it suit me more? Or am I just being daft and should just appreciate it for how it is? Then again I've already thrown enough money at it to completely go against what I've just said!

 

Good to hear your thoughts on the diff they're is a couple of us in hear trying to decide if it's a good move or not

 

I have put the arb on my 370z and its great now

I think worth it for sure

 

Definitely worth it. Mechanical/clutch diffs are much more predictable and fun than viscous diffs. Completely transforms the car - even if you're not into drifting (I'm not really) you can get on the power so much earlier and have so much more control of the car with the throttle. The vidcous diff does start to lose its locking ability as it get warm.

[RobPhoboS]

If you've got some tools, I'd recommend taking the suspension off to test the shocks.

Once compressed (without the spring obv), the piston rod should return quite quickly, my ones varied, one took a short while and didn't fully come out, others didn't even move after about 15mins

No visible signs of anything wrong either.

 

So I'm just saying, because you may think it's ok, one or two could be knackered, it's worth baring in mind as it doesn't take too long to get them off and test.

 

In terms of what you want to do, up to you isn't it.

The car is compromised in terms of handling out of the factory, as it's not an out and out sports car but can be adjusted (with cash) to be more that way

As a side note, my car handles better for me, and rides more comfortably than it did before replacing lots of bits and pieces.

[wmr1980]

Okay food for thought thanks.

[-Bradders-]

You realise both of you are in the whattsapp group right lol?

[RobPhoboS]

More useful to post here - others can see it

[nissanman312]

Yes keep posting good info for others

[Bodyboarder81]

Wrm1980 - if your Zeds done 80k ( how old is it ?) you can bet your shocks are well past there best . As said b6 bilsteins /tein springs ( very mild drop ) eibach anti roll bars seem to be a great road usability set up . Plus good tyres of course .

 

Seen you went for the kaaz diff , what clutch did you go for ?

Edited May 5, 2015 by Bodyboarder81

[wmr1980]

You're probably right - will definitely give it a once over. It's probably why I started this thread, as I felt there was perhaps something "missing". IT's an early 2006 (55 plate) car.

 

Xtreme clutch + SMF - love it. Has made a big difference - the clutch was pretty worn anyway so it's bound to feel better now

 

Tyres are good (F1A2s).

 

When I have some time I will take the shocks off and give them a once over. I fear I'm going to spending yet more money on this bloody thing.

[Bodyboarder81]

Did you get alot more chatter with the smf and lunch combo?

[wmr1980]

Did you get alot more chatter with the smf and lunch combo?

 

I don't talk with my mouthful... (sorry just teasing about the typo "lunch" and chatter ).

 

To be honest I don't find it noisy at all - the chatter from the diff is a lot more apparent - especially around town. On big open roads/fast A roads you can tell.

 

The clutch is a lot more aggressive and responsive.

 

Happy to let you have a go/listen if ever you're in the SE London area - though I go down to Shoreham by Sea at least once a month

[Bodyboarder81]

Did you get alot more chatter with the smf and lunch combo?

 

I don't talk with my mouthful... (sorry just teasing about the typo "lunch" and chatter ).

 

To be honest I don't find it noisy at all - the chatter from the diff is a lot more apparent - especially around town. On big open roads/fast A roads you can tell.

 

The clutch is a lot more aggressive and responsive.

 

Happy to let you have a go/listen if ever you're in the SE London area - though I go down to Shoreham by Sea at least once a month

 

Ha ha lunch combo !!! Gotta love I pads !!

 

Thanks for the offer and feed back. I have been out in one with the same clutch as yours and to be honest it wasn't as bad as I was expecting . I guess because you have a plate style diff it makes a bit of noise , as I've heard the quaife diffs are pretty quite .