twobears Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I don't know much about zero hours contracts but I think they sound appalling. How can anyone plan their life around them? Fine for employers but terrible for employees. I feel sorry for anyone who cannot find a job with regular guaranteed hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Ekona, you have admitted that you wouldn't like to be subjected to a zero hours contract so why do you think it is alright for others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Warnes Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Its quite common for Long Haul Air Hostesses/Airport shift workers to have a second job 'zero hours contract' as it allows them to earn additional cash. Its probably the only positive thing about zero hours i can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 That's not what I said at all. If I had no other options as I had zero skills, I'd take one happily if it meant the chance of bringing money in. My point isn't whether they're right for everyone or not, my point is that if you remove the option then some people will have no work at all. Is that fair? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 (edited) I think you are being disingenuous Ekona to frame the question as if I am advocating taking bread from the mouths of the poor. I have no political axe to grind and am, in fact, completely apolitical because I have never found a politician of any hue that I can trust. To me, the fact that some people's only choice of employment is this precarious i.e. zero hours contract is plain wrong. It is easy to demonise the poor, to ostracise 'the other' be they 'foreigners' or of a lower educational standard than oneself but why shouldn't everyone be treated fairly? Zero hours contracts are NOT fair and I believe they should be outlawed and employers forced to create real jobs. Zero hours contracts mirror the situation during the great depression when unskilled labourers were forced to turn up to the docks or factories every day to see if they were chosen to work that day. Edited April 2, 2015 by twobears 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Welcome to the real world. You cannot get employers just to 'create real jobs' if by doing so it then puts their company at risk. Trust me, businesses actively seek out those who want to work, who are good at their jobs and who want to commit long-term, as it massively helps with strategic planning. If they cannot do so and have to look towards zero contracts just to be able to keep going then either they're a crap business that no-one wants to work for, or the available workforce just isn't up to scratch. Life isn't fair. Life is pretty crap most of the time. If you outlaw zero contracts, you WILL remove an employment option. You and I then take up the slack by higher benefit costs. Now, if you think that is fair and it's the right trade off to make, then that's fine: Politics is about differing opinions. If you want to get shot of them just because you don't think it's fair and haven't fully understood the dynamics and resulting effect, then I would say that's being naive. Not saying you're the latter, it's just poor phrasing on my part of the point I'm trying to make. You're one of the few people who can make eloquent political debate without resorting to "Because Maggie!" or "Because Blair!" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grundy Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Don't see the problem It's just like a stepping stone into a career/future prospects. A chance to prove your self and progress - Seems like volunteer work, but getting paid I disagree with the point of 'how can anyone plan there life around them' The majority of people who are on these, will be people who have been unemployed for a series of time. I can't really see them having multiple holidays across the world planned through out the year to consider, they are the sort of work hungry people who will want to grab any hours they can. It's an opportunity, not a degrading matter. Btw I'm just basing this on a lazy friend who has been unemployed since college and just lives on benefits - Never does anything other than sit's on his PC 90% of the time. Thus, no real life to worry about work getting in the way of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payco Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 How's Ethel Twobears ?. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Ethel is fine and dandy thank you Payco Oddly, she hasn't been in the neighbour's garden once since I posted on here so maybe she's hooked the coop up to my broadband somehow? I took a photo of her but can't find the cable to link my camera to the computer or I would post it in the pet thread re zero hours contracts, I think it is wrong to view them as starter jobs or something that only the long term unemployed, lazy and/or feckless end up with. From what I understand more and more jobs are now created as zero hours contracts and it is affecting people with families not just students or ne'er do wells. Like most people who pay taxes I don't relish the thought of paying out any more for social security bills but if it has to be done then I see it as a necessary evil, unless universal credit (not the one proposed by the government, the one where everyone gets given a basic 'wage') is introduced. As for living in the real world, I do, really I do. As an employer myself I would love to employ staff on zero hours contracts from a business point of view but my innate sense of justice won't allow me to. I have experience in many forms of employment from local government to global businesses, as well as my own humble embroidery and printing firm so I don't believe I am naive. I simply have a sense of social justice and can't bear to see people taken advantage of 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I own a recruitment company so Im pretty familiar with zero hours contracts, most of our guys are effectively on them as it allows much more flexibility. As I wrote on this very board the other day: zero hours contracts is just a formal version of casual work, you arent limited to only having one ZHC on the go at a time. We used to have a similar system, it was called "cash in hand" except you didnt get holiday, sick or pension and didnt have any rights. No offence but I dont think twobears understands the concept at all - if I run a restaurant and need 180 hours of waiters per week, I can put 4 people on 40 hour contracts and 1 on 20 hours ........ but I have to pay overtime if one of them is off sick, or on holiday, or training, or on maternity, or at a funeral or myriad other reasons. If I have 8 people on zero hours contracts, I can cover anything, they will average 22.5 hours per week and everyone has the flexibility to take other work, holidays etc. I can give the most hours to the hardest working staff, and I can operate a roster system so that its not the same people working Friday and Saturday nights. But the best bit is that all of my employees have rights - holiday pay, sick pay, minimum wage, tribunals etc. where if they were paid cash in had they wouldnt. As for demonise the poor, my lowest paid ZHC guy is on £18 per hour. Thats not "poor" by anyones standards, thats "flexible". And the alternative? Well, that would be cash in hand for casual work, is that really a better situation to be in? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 docwra, that all sounds great but are all zero hours contacts the same? I will admit to having no hands-on experience of them, only what I have read in the broadsheets (take a Tory and a Liberal one for balance ) and most people are described as on minimum wage rather than £18 ph and upwards. I am willing to learn but I am not sure that your recruitment company is typical is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 No, we arent typical by any means There is vast amounts of minimum wage work out there, pretty much any kind of unskilled labouring or production is minimum wage or just above, and youre right, the majority of people on ZHC's are lower paid workers but its by no means the divisive aspect that a lot of media are claiming. Sure, if you depend on a single ZHC for a very volatile employer it can be a feast or famine situation, but there is nothing stopping you picking up another ZHC, or another 3, or whatever suits you. If yorue good and work hard then IMO theres a very high likelihood of an employer converting to a full contract as well, as this is the only way to retain your services. The bottom line is that the employer is not being forced to pay for hours they dont need worked, the employee has the freedom to work when it suits them for any number of firms but everyone retains their rights if they are being exploited or treated unfairly. It also gives flexibility for parents, students, part time workers and even pensioners who want to do a bit but dont want to be tied to a 40 hour week .......... and HM Gov still gets the tax and NI thats due. The other option is cash in hand, the requirement for flexible workers will never go away, this is just a reasonably good way of regulating it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 docwra, that all sounds great but are all zero hours contacts the same? I will admit to having no hands-on experience of them, only what I have read in the broadsheets (take a Tory and a Liberal one for balance ) and most people are described as on minimum wage rather than £18 ph and upwards. I am willing to learn but I am not sure that your recruitment company is typical is it? My understanding is similar. Zero hours, no contract, no sick pay, no holiday pay, possible no job tomorrow. As Two Bears asks/suggest - are there a variety of differing Zero Hours Work offered by Employers ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sipar69 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Cameron completely ducked Paxman's question about whether he could live on a zero hours contract. (Not that politicians ducking questions is remarkable). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 It seems that it can work well for some people in that case but I'm not convinced it is beneficial for most people, although I can see it is always a boon for employers. In theory it would be fine to have several zero hours contracts simultaneously but what if you have young children/elderly parents/disabled relatives to care for and have to turn down work? I guess you would quickly find out that your ZHC meant just that and you would be offered no work in the future? If we assume that people are either working or dossing around then ZHCs don't seem too much of a problem but if people have families and mortgages or other unavoidable responsibilities then the picture doesn't look quite so rosy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 The worst of it is the ones which are zero hours but demand exclusitivity. So you might get no hours and be forbidden from other work. Which stinks. I'm much less averse to the non-exclusive ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 The worst of it is the ones which are zero hours but demand exclusitivity. So you might get no hours and be forbidden from other work. Which stinks. I'm much less averse to the non-exclusive ones. I believe the government are banning the exclusive ones as they are exploitative, not really much denying that. Zero hours, no contract, no sick pay, no holiday pay, possible no job tomorrow The "contract" bit in the name is kinda a giveaway, you do get sick pay at SSP and you should accrue holiday as well. Sure, you might not have a job tomorrow, but you also dont have to give notice if you want to leave. Cameron completely ducked Paxman's question about whether he could live on a zero hours contract. I dont know why he did TBH, if yopu already own your house (as I imagine he does) and dont have to pay a mortgage then they arent a problem, and they dont have to be minimum wage - with Camerons background he could be a consultant PR advisor to 2-3 different companies at the same time and do a bit of callcentre work on the side as well I think he didnt want to remind everyone that he knew he would ever be out of a job the day he started at Eton, its hardly the "common man" is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grundy Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 This is better than no work... If you can't commit to random hours, then don't take a ZHC? From what I've been reading, there is a pool of employees on ZHC, and that is for when one person says ' I can't make those hours do to XYZ' So they offer it to someone else in the pool. I doubt they get rid of you for turning down one piece of work. If you're in a situation where you need the money, you aren't going to turn down work, you will find other ways to allow you not to be busy - I.e. baby sitter, find someone to do a school run etc. Chances are most situations they give you a few days notice of your hours...so it gives you time to plan around it... Again, not seeing the issue, any work is better than no work. If you have other commitments, don't take ZHC and go find a part time job that suits yours hours... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Just to add into the mix, ZHC might suit some peoples lifestyle requirements. i.e they dont want to work everyday. I dont see people being forced into it, i guess like anything, every one has a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Don't see the problem It's just like a stepping stone into a career/future prospects. A chance to prove your self and progress - Seems like volunteer work, but getting paid I disagree with the point of 'how can anyone plan there life around them' The majority of people who are on these, will be people who have been unemployed for a series of time. I can't really see them having multiple holidays across the world planned through out the year to consider, they are the sort of work hungry people who will want to grab any hours they can. It's an opportunity, not a degrading matter. Btw I'm just basing this on a lazy friend who has been unemployed since college and just lives on benefits - Never does anything other than sit's on his PC 90% of the time. Thus, no real life to worry about work getting in the way of. So you then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraziekatz1 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 This is straight from my contract: "Hours of Work - You are expected to manage your working hours so as to fulfill the requirements and objectives of your job and as such you will have no standard working hours. You will, however, normally be expected to attend on a daily basis, Monday to Friday. In addition, you are expected to be available outside these hours, including at weekends, as the state of work requires." It's like the complete opposite of zero hours.....but just as vague! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaydnH Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 It was a Labour Idea! So companies took people on without long term commitment it got the unemployed numbers down statistically Now as with most things the party that thought it up thinks it is a bad idea and uses it against the government in the election! Politics eh? Does anyone have a source or reference to this being a Labour idea? I can't find anything in Google. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 This is straight from my contract: "Hours of Work - You are expected to manage your working hours so as to fulfill the requirements and objectives of your job and as such you will have no standard working hours. You will, however, normally be expected to attend on a daily basis, Monday to Friday. In addition, you are expected to be available outside these hours, including at weekends, as the state of work requires." It's like the complete opposite of zero hours.....but just as vague! That's an All Hours Contract In invisible ink on mine it says, "If you don't make yourself available whenever we want, your name goes on a blacklist and there'll be no more contracts EVER!". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyndzzz Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I'm an educated skilled employee on a ZHC through no fault of my own!! It just happens I work in the private care sector and this is the way the vast majority employ people. Whilst the majority of care workers are not highly educated they are often highly trained and skilled (don't believe everything you hear/read in the newspapers) and the ZHC is not as bad as Labour make it out to be but it's not a great thing either. I work with primarily lone parents trying to support their families, they can't "get off their arses" anymore than they currently do. Not being able to guarantee to earn enough to pay their rent or feed their kids is not a good thing. These people are doing their best, not scrounging off the state, willing and able to work and not unreliable kids. Prior to being in care I was in business finance and also grew up in a medium sized family business, I know all about business needs! The companies could offer a large proportion of their workforce a short contract of say 12 hours and still employ "bank" staff to cover as needed and to appeal to people who want a ZHC or don't need a contract. Businesses look good when they can employ 25% more people as do the Tories for saying more people are now employed. Obviously this is just my opinion having some experience on both sides of the fence 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock_Steady Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) Having a Zero hour contract is basically one day away from having no work. I agree with some of what Ekona has mentioned but if it were as easy as " i'll just won't work for two years and enrol on a course at uni/college " then this wouldn't be a problem at all, but it's not always like that. That is the " real world " We don't know the foibles involved in people's lives in order to make such a judgement. Zero hour contracts provide a situation where people who want to work can be taken advantage of to some degree. People who want to work shouldn't really be in that kind of situation. I think the government give enough ammunition to those who won't work. Zero hour contracts is not much of an incentive. Edited April 7, 2015 by Rock_Steady Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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