remap completed

[GT4 Zed]

good call, i might get rid of mine then if its not needed, i presume it would just do the same thing and cancel itself out with an uprev anyway

If you get the UpRev it's not needed at all, ...regardless of whether you're supercharged, turbocharged or N/A.

 

Edit: Hurry up already btw.

 

Don't be a chicken Gareth and get a throttle controller! It improves the experience. I have had it from long ago and also with Uprev and SC with no issues. Years ago I did a dyno pull with it to demonstrate it does not affect you figures but it did shift the curve slight to the left as expected since you increase the response.

So FYI it will work if you have Uprev or any other ecu. It dors not interfere with it. Your AFR always be on target.

It is not a power mod. All it does is to increase or decrease the throttle body response by altering the electronic signal from the pedal sensor to the TB.

With drive by wire throttles unlike the direct response of a cable throttle the is a small " lag" and also the OEM map limits throttle response in the lower 3 gears to prevent wheel spin in bad weather. (This is what the Uprev removes) The throttle controller fools the TB to open in varying degrees depending on the mode you select. At Sport 9 mode it gives you 100% opening on all the gears and creates the responsiveness that makes the car feel more powerful. Conversely at eco7 it dumbs down the signal and therefore the response so pressing the pedal all the way down results in little opening of the TB = little air = little fuel = low power = economy.

The ECU will still do it's thing depending on the air coming in and so the map is uncompromised. A lot of modern cars have a throttle controller inbuilt as standard eg the M button on the M3 though it also activated the EDC depending on your setting.

AFAICR the was a DE that had Uprev on std everything and it made similar power to a car with full bolt ons and UPrev. I'm still of the opinion that UPrev will optimise your car's performance mods or no mods but the throttle controller is a must and way cheaper and gives you the feeling of power which is what everyone is looking for.

The problem is people have been wanting huge power gains out of UPrev and get disappointed. You want power then go FI simples.

[GMballistic]

^^ Cheers for that Bennet. Always good to learn something new. Definitely something to consider then I guess.

 

Firstly Christmas though.

[chirag1988]

Must admit I was expecting to open this thread to see 'feels amazing worth every penny' - your gains are not particularly big so not surprised you can't feel anything.

 

The appeal of the uprev is the 'drivability' which I must admit I felt when I had mine done, but, it was no different to when I had the throttle controller on the car which cost me £65 and a 2 minute install. If I ever got a zed again I would not do the uprev simply because in my mind, its just not worth the money when there is a much cheaper option (for what I want in terms of low gear drive).

 

I wish they did the throttle controller for the HR engine, but unfortunately it's not available

 

 

Apexi do one for the HR

 

 

 

Similar experience for me when I had my previous 370 re-mapped. From the positive things I'd read from other 370 owners I think I was expecting too much. It didn't feel any different to me really, although I tried to tell myself it did. However, other 370 owners have felt a difference and are glad they had it done.

 

My 370z kept breaking down after having it UPREV'ed

 

 

Personally from my experience I'd say unless you going FI it's not worth the money, but a good idea if your fitting de-cats as the car will run a little leaner with no cats

 

Darren I had a look for the Apexi controller for the HR - it's around $200 plus whatever shipping to the UK would be...do you know anyone who's had it or any reviews about it?

[Tricky-Ricky]

Makes you wonder if people notice the lack of throttle limitation the most when going for up-rev, as its obviously going to make the car feel stronger when punching it in lower gears.

 

So for the difference in price it may suit some to just use a throttle controller to get what they want from the engine.

 

No response from the FI guys on my comments then?

[zippypooz]

good call, i might get rid of mine then if its not needed, i presume it would just do the same thing and cancel itself out with an uprev anyway

If you get the UpRev it's not needed at all, ...regardless of whether you're supercharged, turbocharged or N/A.

 

Edit: Hurry up already btw.

 

Don't be a chicken Gareth and get a throttle controller! It improves the experience. I have had it from long ago and also with Uprev and SC with no issues. Years ago I did a dyno pull with it to demonstrate it does not affect you figures but it did shift the curve slight to the left as expected since you increase the response.

So FYI it will work if you have Uprev or any other ecu. It dors not interfere with it. Your AFR always be on target.

It is not a power mod. All it does is to increase or decrease the throttle body response by altering the electronic signal from the pedal sensor to the TB.

With drive by wire throttles unlike the direct response of a cable throttle the is a small " lag" and also the OEM map limits throttle response in the lower 3 gears to prevent wheel spin in bad weather. (This is what the Uprev removes) The throttle controller fools the TB to open in varying degrees depending on the mode you select. At Sport 9 mode it gives you 100% opening on all the gears and creates the responsiveness that makes the car feel more powerful. Conversely at eco7 it dumbs down the signal and therefore the response so pressing the pedal all the way down results in little opening of the TB = little air = little fuel = low power = economy.

The ECU will still do it's thing depending on the air coming in and so the map is uncompromised. A lot of modern cars have a throttle controller inbuilt as standard eg the M button on the M3 though it also activated the EDC depending on your setting.

AFAICR the was a DE that had Uprev on std everything and it made similar power to a car with full bolt ons and UPrev. I'm still of the opinion that UPrev will optimise your car's performance mods or no mods but the throttle controller is a must and way cheaper and gives you the feeling of power which is what everyone is looking for.

The problem is people have been wanting huge power gains out of UPrev and get disappointed. You want power then go FI simples.

thanks for this, very informative and not too much technical bumph that i cant understand lol!! May look at doing this rather than uprev although without uprev my bolt-ons and de-cats a a little pointless i guess.

[jumping350]

Cheers for that info Bennet il keep my throttle controller then to complement the FI

[GT4 Zed]

All this talk of using Up-rev with a FI engine has got me thinking.....I remember Mark mentioning that the VQ ECU has not knock monitoring at over 5,000RPM now this would worry me greatly, (unless there is some way of reinstating it during up-rev tune? but I somehow doubt it)

 

Now I know from experience that you can map for safety and keep fueling on the rich side and the timing on the safe side of advanced when mapping, however it would worry me that there is no knock control should you get a bad batch of fuel or something else go wrong, I think I would always go for a decent stand alone ECU that has all the safety features.

 

You are right about this but the solution with UPrev is to fatten the map past 48krpm. It's more than ample except you are leaving some power on the table.

Bad fuel is a moot point and is unlikely to happen as if anything will not let you reach redline.

I have had water contaminated fuel from a Murco on the M5 around Taunton while playing Russian roulette with low fuel trying to get to Gordano services but chickened out as the fuel had been on ---- for over 25miles and was worried the hill into bristol will catch me out. Long and short the the car was spluttering for about 1 mile and finally died. Had to get the AA tow me to the services drained my tank filled with fresh fuel and after multiple attempts to start the car it finally cleared the injectors and drove ok after that to Worcester.

 

Knock control will not save you from fuel pump failure. You would need to spend a fortune on very high end ecu with failsafes at all level and it will still not save you from a catastrophic failure of some sort. Some high end drag cars run complex ecu with individual cylinder control and fsilsafes and still go bang! You can't get any better than this.

My point it that it's not a big issue apart from not optimising fueling at timing past the limit.

Ultimately we all know FI is a risk and you have to go in with your eyes open, same with normal road cars. My mate has spent a fortune on a low mileage 335D with all sorts going boom.

Another way to look at it is how many cars that have gone bang so far with FI? But there has been a spate of blown NA engines recently. I guess the causes are different but safety is safety. Poor oil or lack of is a bigger issue and once FI'ed you need to watch it like a hawk.

 

[Tricky-Ricky]

All this talk of using Up-rev with a FI engine has got me thinking.....I remember Mark mentioning that the VQ ECU has not knock monitoring at over 5,000RPM now this would worry me greatly, (unless there is some way of reinstating it during up-rev tune? but I somehow doubt it)

 

Now I know from experience that you can map for safety and keep fueling on the rich side and the timing on the safe side of advanced when mapping, however it would worry me that there is no knock control should you get a bad batch of fuel or something else go wrong, I think I would always go for a decent stand alone ECU that has all the safety features.

 

You are right about this but the solution with UPrev is to fatten the map past 48krpm. It's more than ample except you are leaving some power on the table.

Bad fuel is a moot point and is unlikely to happen as if anything will not let you reach redline.

I have had water contaminated fuel from a Murco on the M5 around Taunton while playing Russian roulette with low fuel trying to get to Gordano services but chickened out as the fuel had been on ---- for over 25miles and was worried the hill into bristol will catch me out. Long and short the the car was spluttering for about 1 mile and finally died. Had to get the AA tow me to the services drained my tank filled with fresh fuel and after multiple attempts to start the car it finally cleared the injectors and drove ok after that to Worcester.

 

Knock control will not save you from fuel pump failure. You would need to spend a fortune on very high end ecu with failsafes at all level and it will still not save you from a catastrophic failure of some sort. Some high end drag cars run complex ecu with individual cylinder control and fsilsafes and still go bang! You can't get any better than this.

My point it that it's not a big issue apart from not optimising fueling at timing past the limit.

Ultimately we all know FI is a risk and you have to go in with your eyes open, same with normal road cars. My mate has spent a fortune on a low mileage 335D with all sorts going boom.

Another way to look at it is how many cars that have gone bang so far with FI? But there has been a spate of blown NA engines recently. I guess the causes are different but safety is safety. Poor oil or lack of is a bigger issue and once FI'ed you need to watch it like a hawk.

 

 

That was my point, you have to play it safe with up-rev mapping as it uses the std knock control table that runs out at 5K RPM, with a decent stand alone ECU such as Syvecs or Link etc which are not that expensive in the scheme of things and can be had for £1200-1600 and have very comprehensive knock control and loads of other safety functions like over boost protection, along with individual cylinder adjust for fuel timing, in fact even mid priced piggyback that I have used have individual cylinder trim.

 

I would be far more concerned with bad quality fuel and over-boost protection than I would with bad oil, as most oils available are plenty good enough for an engine designed back in the ninety's which the VQ was,

 

Once your FI the main points for concern at high loads are Knock brought on by whatever IE det through over-boost, bad/low octane fuel, not water contamination as that wont reduce the octane count, unlike oil in the combustion mix (which is why I would always make sure I have remodeled the PCV system) the other is high EGTs which it seems nobody monitors on the VQ?

A dead fuel pump would be the least of my worries, in any case the ECUs I mentioned have fail safes for low fuel pressure,

the std ECU has no monitoring for this and very little else when pushing the motor beyond its design limits IE FI, on your average basic FI motor there are already safety functions built in to cover these eventualities, which is why I mentioned my concerns about the std ECU and up-rev, but I guess its all a case of what your prepared to spend your cash on.

[jamess115]

Having spent £££'s modding, im not even tempted to remap. To me its far too expensive for little or no end product.

[Dicky]

Think it's put me off now. May spend the £400 on a front end respray I will definitely see the benifit of that.

[spursmaddave]

Racing single mass clutch & lightened flywheel had far more effect on driveability than any other mod I did

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited December 6, 2014 by spursmaddave

[GT4 Zed]

All this talk of using Up-rev with a FI engine has got me thinking.....I remember Mark mentioning that the VQ ECU has not knock monitoring at over 5,000RPM now this would worry me greatly, (unless there is some way of reinstating it during up-rev tune? but I somehow doubt it)

 

Now I know from experience that you can map for safety and keep fueling on the rich side and the timing on the safe side of advanced when mapping, however it would worry me that there is no knock control should you get a bad batch of fuel or something else go wrong, I think I would always go for a decent stand alone ECU that has all the safety features.

 

You are right about this but the solution with UPrev is to fatten the map past 48krpm. It's more than ample except you are leaving some power on the table.

Bad fuel is a moot point and is unlikely to happen as if anything will not let you reach redline.

I have had water contaminated fuel from a Murco on the M5 around Taunton while playing Russian roulette with low fuel trying to get to Gordano services but chickened out as the fuel had been on ---- for over 25miles and was worried the hill into bristol will catch me out. Long and short the the car was spluttering for about 1 mile and finally died. Had to get the AA tow me to the services drained my tank filled with fresh fuel and after multiple attempts to start the car it finally cleared the injectors and drove ok after that to Worcester.

 

Knock control will not save you from fuel pump failure. You would need to spend a fortune on very high end ecu with failsafes at all level and it will still not save you from a catastrophic failure of some sort. Some high end drag cars run complex ecu with individual cylinder control and fsilsafes and still go bang! You can't get any better than this.

My point it that it's not a big issue apart from not optimising fueling at timing past the limit.

Ultimately we all know FI is a risk and you have to go in with your eyes open, same with normal road cars. My mate has spent a fortune on a low mileage 335D with all sorts going boom.

Another way to look at it is how many cars that have gone bang so far with FI? But there has been a spate of blown NA engines recently. I guess the causes are different but safety is safety. Poor oil or lack of is a bigger issue and once FI'ed you need to watch it like a hawk.

 

 

That was my point, you have to play it safe with up-rev mapping as it uses the std knock control table that runs out at 5K RPM, with a decent stand alone ECU such as Syvecs or Link etc which are not that expensive in the scheme of things and can be had for £1200-1600 and have very comprehensive knock control and loads of other safety functions like over boost protection, along with individual cylinder adjust for fuel timing, in fact even mid priced piggyback that I have used have individual cylinder trim.

 

I would be far more concerned with bad quality fuel and over-boost protection than I would with bad oil, as most oils available are plenty good enough for an engine designed back in the ninety's which the VQ was,

 

Once your FI the main points for concern at high loads are Knock brought on by whatever IE det through over-boost, bad/low octane fuel, not water contamination as that wont reduce the octane count, unlike oil in the combustion mix (which is why I would always make sure I have remodeled the PCV system) the other is high EGTs which it seems nobody monitors on the VQ?

A dead fuel pump would be the least of my worries, in any case the ECUs I mentioned have fail safes for low fuel pressure,

the std ECU has no monitoring for this and very little else when pushing the motor beyond its design limits IE FI, on your average basic FI motor there are already safety functions built in to cover these eventualities, which is why I mentioned my concerns about the std ECU and up-rev, but I guess its all a case of what your prepared to spend your cash on.

 

First off syvecs is not £1500-1600. The syvecs S6 (£1600 excluding vat) will only support one wideband = one bank effectively. The S8 will support dual widebands and costs £3500 excluding additional drivers and gizmos like Toucan.

Secondly you keep talking about bad fuel but I really don't know what you mean by this. My experience was water contamination. Can you give me an example to buttress your point? It's a very unlikely scenario and you will not be able to get to any "bad fue lsituation" to cause serious damage to the car .

To my knowledge no FI car has blown up due to bad fuel in the UK or US. Bad tune or poor maintenance has been the more likely culprit often.

You talk about mid level ECU and that but please specify because as I said before high end race/drag cars with complex ECU with failsafes still go boom so what's up with that?

How can you say water in fuel will not affect octane ratings. Any contaminant will either positively or negatively affect it eg water, N2O and same as with blowby-oil vapour. The difference is if it's accounted for in the tune or not.

You talk about remodelling the PCV but that not new tech and frankly it only improves your octane rating marginally but that will not cause catastrophic det at moderate to high hp. At extreme boost/hp levels I can understand. That's why every OEM car NA or boosted all can scavenge blow by through the intake system for second pass safely.

EGT is only very important for turbo applications same as over boost protection. Sc temps are 1/2 as much much lower are not a common feature in failures.

What I'm trying to say is that though some of your points are valid they are not that important in the grand scheme of things. Theory and real life are always miles apart.

 

[Tricky-Ricky]

Well fella if you want to play who knows best.... I have

been building cars/bikes and engines and tuning them

for the last 40 odd years and I am pretty confident in

most of my info other than quoting exact prices

I have seen plenty of FI engines damaged through bad

fuel, but I am not going into scenario for the sake of

argument, suffice to say that it happens.

Secondly if you fuel supply is contaminated with water

and you try and run the engine, most of the time it will

run as the petrol sit on top of the water, so unless you

have very low fuel the pump pick up will not pick up the

water due to the position,

further to this have you never heard or used water

injection? its using a fine metered spray in the intake or

plenum to provide both charge cooling and in cylinder

cooling, which is very efficient and allows the ECU to be

mapped for a little more power, or just left to provide a

little safety margin especially on FI engines.

You seem to place some distinction between

turbocharged and supercharged engines, yet they both

run with the same principal, the only difference is that a

SC engine will make boost earlier due to direct ratio to

engine RPM,

You obviously don't understand the principal of

combustion as EGT =exhaust gas temperature is just as

important in N/A as FI, it can be influenced by, and all of

the following and not just boost pressure,

Ignition timing, fuelling, compression ratio, fuel

quality/octane and boost,

 

People seem to labour under the false impression that

because a turbocharger is run from the exhaust its

going to be much hotter than a supercharger, but the

fact is that any compressed air is going to be hot from

simply being compressed......this is why you run a

suitably sized intercooler to reduce the temps to near

ambient and sometimes lower, (this is another reason

for running water injection)

 

Now on to the PCV system, adding oil to the

combustion process will lower the octane of the fuel

used, the reason for modifying it, lets take the VQ for

now, is because of the design of the plenum and the

fact that most engines draw the most oil vapour during

idle due to the high vacuum, this oil vapour pools in the

low point of the plenum base which is fine until you use

a large throttle opening and then close it again,

this causes turbulence and results in a quantity of oil

being drawn into the combustion chambers and burnt,

 

Now depending on the engine loading at this point it is

possible for this to result in det, on a std engine its

usually not much of a problem (but personally I will

always mod it to avoid this)

But with an FI engine no matter whether SC or turbo, if

this happens at the wrong time IE under high load and

not necessarily high RPM it can cause det, which is a

definite bad thing on a FI motor, so if you can avoid this

its always better to remodel the PCV system IMO,

you wont see a race engine with a recirc PCV system

for a good reason, and although the VQ is not, adding

boost is pushing it beyond its design parameters so the

more help you can get the better.

 

Finally you asked about ECUs and features, there are

quite a lot of low price ECUs about, but I'll give you an

example of a mid price piggyback made by Greddy, the

Emanage ultimate, as I'm sure you know a piggyback is

spliced into the std ECU and intercepts the signals from

the engine sensors IE, AFM/MAP, injector, ignition timing

etc etc, these signals are then modified and the result is

being able to fool the ECU and map the engine to

improve/adapt its performance,

Now the EMU has individual cylinder adjustments for

ignition timing and fuelling trim, for both RPM and load,

this is just an example as there are more that will do the

same at prices from about the same as an up-rev remap.

 

 

Oh! and just to address you drag racer scenario, they go

boom because they tuned to such a degree that they are

literally a bomb on wheels and are fuelled by nitro

methane which is as its name suggests very very

volatile, add to this they are run at the most boost

pressure they can get away with its hardly surprising

that the do blow up literally.

[GT4 Zed]

Hey fella, I have not questioned your credibility and if you read my post properly you would see that we are talking about the same things. No need to get defensive.

 

There is nothing new you are saying here and frankly my point was that not having knock control beyond 5k does not equate to total unsafety. The car as NA does seem to suffer adversely from it and the fueling and ignition targets beyond there do the job well which is what UPrev mirrors when FI.

 

FI on an NA design is inherently risky and that risk is borne by the owner of the said vehicle.

While I acknowledge that a stand alone device will be better does mean UPrev cannot cut it for the purposes will are using our cars for. Greddy e-manage and many other piggyback are not that superior to reflashes. It all comes down to cost and also using what you tuner is happy with.

 

FYI I put up a thread a long way back about how to modify the OEM PCV for FI cars so I understand how it work Same with water injection, EGT, piggy backs etc you are not telling me nothing new so stop waving your pinky.

 

I disagree with you about some of the points explanations you made and keep making but it was not the object of my first response to your post about knock control limits, so I will not try and correct you again because you obviously know it all. You keep talking the talk I will just walk the walk.

 

[Tricky-Ricky]

So we will have to agree to disagree then fella , but stop with all the facetious comments,

I was just trying to have a discussion with those that wish to discuss the topics, and not play silly games.

[glrnet]

Chill please guys.

[Tricky-Ricky]

Sorry! no problem, I have no wish to continue now.

[spursmaddave]

Some real rubbish being spouted about the upRev on this thread, anyone who can't tell the difference before & after must have a problem with the car or the tune wasn't done correctly. Lots of members over the years have had their Zeds done and been more than happy, so why all of a sudden is it getting such a slating? I guess £400 is a lot to spend on a cheap car like a Zed now, but when you couldn't find one for much under £10k it made more sense. Maybe after all these years of making money on upRevs the price should be coming down?

[Adrian@TORQEN]

Unless going FI, I wouldn't waste money on UpRev. Spend it on tyres, brake pads, brake fluid or fine ladies

[spursmaddave]

Unless going FI, I wouldn't waste money on UpRev. Spend it on tyres, brake pads, brake fluid or fine ladies

 

Adrian, advice from you on not wasting money?

[Darren-B]

Unless going FI, I wouldn't waste money on UpRev. Spend it on tyres, brake pads, brake fluid or fine ladies

 

Adrian, advice from you on not wasting money?

 

 

I think you misunderstood Dave.

 

£400 uprev or:

 

4xtyres= £1100

brake pads= £400

fluid = £50

Fine ladies (depending on where you goo) =£20 - £20k

 

Nice saving I'd say

[Rock_Steady]

400 pounds is what it is, regardless of what the Zed is worth an Uprev does what it says on the tin. Anyone who's been on this forum long enough and has done their homework knows it's never the same for any Zed. Do the mods, take it for an Uprev, cross your fingers and hope for the best. No one has been for an Uprev and came out with the figures they went in with.

 

As I said before, i'm still going for an Uprev.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Rock_Steady

[Bockaaarck]

It's just speculation but I wonder whether Uprev gains are more noticeable for those who drive on a lightish throttle using the torque and mid-range as their preferred driving style?

 

I noticed the difference, particularly the elimination of that "flat spot" (for want of a better description). I also noted smoother response. However, I also wanted to ensure car was mapped properly given the mods I'd had (particularly the high flow cats).

 

You may have something there. I tend to drive with very smooth throttle modulation so that may be it. I was taught to drive that way and always have done.

[Rock_Steady]

If anything, at least you know your car has a decent map by a reputable company and is running how it "should be"

[docwra]

Chill please guys.

 

Quite. Pretty sad to see two of the most knowledgeable guys on the forum digging at each other but I spose thats forums for you.

 

Ill throw my tuppence in - there is decent knock protection available for relatively low monies on standalone, and TBF if youve spent the money on an FI setup youd be a fool not to get decent management.

 

I would also add that while I loved the throttle controller to start with I stopped using it, particularly on track and while doing skids as I found it removed some of the throttle control, which makes sense I suppose