twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Good post hensh65 Hopefully your wife will start to earn a good wage once she's been working a bit longer though? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I was exaggerating the point on the fees btw I know lots of people were opposed to fee's at the time, but a large swath of the population were for it - I just don't think they appreciated at the time (I am talking back in 1994 not the debates on the £8k fees introduced in the last few years) the wheels they were putting in motion and where it would end up. As I said, if you want to get into a particular career you need to look at the entry requirements and meet them as best you can. I would imagine law firms would like people to have law degrees/education if they are going to take them on, doctors ideally should have the required educational qualifications which are usually degrees and car mechanics had what was required, which might be experience/vocational/training but not a degree. Are degree's essential, to give yourself the best chance of getting into a career where it is a pre-requisite yes I think they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fodder Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I think it also depends which industry. I work in the finance sector as an IT consultant. I wasn't very academic at all and left school as soon as I could. like others it was just classroom environments I found mundane even though I was in the top few in the upper band of classes for most subjects. I wanted to be a mechanic so I found a place willing to take me on and I thought that was going to be my life. Unfortunately I had a nasty injury which eventually meant I couldn't really cope with the physical work. I had to find another career so I enjoyed playing around with computers at home and I lucked out at an interview and got a job putting pc's on desks at a financial services company. I worked my way throught the various stages and now work designing and building systems to support applications with 300k+ users. I'm the exception to the rule in my place of work and if it wasn't for the fact various managers along the way hadn't noticed me and requested me to join their teams i wouldn't even stand a chance to get an interview due to lack of even A level education. The things is I'm a hard worker, I have a very good memory and I see things slightly different to most people making me a great troubleshooter. So in my case an initial bout of luck followed by hard graft worked for me but I know a degree is a requirement for most of the roles today. Oh and keep contact with folks who have moved on for whatever reason as you never know when they may be interviewing you or asked for their opinion of you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
370Ad Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I would say yes but not for the content of the degree more for the piece of paper. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22268809 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Are degree's essential, to give yourself the best chance of getting into a career where it is a pre-requisite yes I think they are. You might want to read that again fella! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Fodder, some elements of your life story sound very like those of my husband. He is one of the cleverest people I know but he hated the formal confines of school and has worked his way up to being on the board of a big company via the IT route and the talent that he has for it. Trouble is, people like you and him would probably be excluded from even applying for a job in IT these days. Definitely not right 370ad, many thanks for that link. Going to keep it open during my lesson so I can refer to it 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Bradders- Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I work in a uni, i work in IT, i've never been to uni or college at that. i left school and started working. im good at what i do, and now have 5/6 years experience behind me. dont have any grade or degrees to prove it though haha. i think in this day and age, its who you know, not what you know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 SuperStu, I agree with every single thing you say except the point that universities should provide vocational training. I think that universities should exist solely to educate the brightest and the best in academic subjects. Controversial? Not controversial, it's just branding IMO. I went to a university that used to be a polytechnic and studied Business and Technology. I feel that's more vocational than academic, but to all intents and purposes it's the same studying I would have done if it was a poly as if it was a uni. It took the same number of years as a degree and I worked hard, in stints, to get it. The only reason I believe they should all be under the brand of "university" is that it cuts down some of the two tier bull**** that some people have about assuming a university qualification is "better" than a vocational one, purely and simply because of the name of the institution and not the amount of study work put I achieving it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 That is also a very good point Bradders. Although it's always been thus. Are you saying that you got your job because of who you know, by the way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saihaynes Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I work in IT and left school at 16, never had any interest in getting a degree and would rather have the 15 plus years of experience and relevant industry qualifications (MCSE, VCP, CCNA etc) Work hard, continually develop your skillset and connect/ network with your peers and you can't go far wrong The only way in my eyes a degree is worthwhile career wise is if your chosen path requires it....just my two cents 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmac Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I must admit that I was a little fortunate getting my masters qualification. The MCA changed the rules when I had a chief officers ticket and forgot about long standing people like me. I pointed it out and after a few weeks they just gave me a masters ticket. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hensh65 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Good post hensh65 Hopefully your wife will start to earn a good wage once she's been working a bit longer though? I hope so, then I can be a house hubby spend all day detailing my car 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 I understand what you are saying SuperStu but I think that forcing all further educational provision under the 'university' umbrella devalues the lot, vocational and academic, because now no-one actually knows how rigorous the standards are. As you have seen on this thread alone, some people still set great store by the credentials of the educational establishment itself so trying to democratise education will always fail in my opinion. Of course we need to produce people with both academic and vocational qualifications but one has always been judged to be more worthy even though we know that plumbers, mechanics etc actually keep the world running and that calling for a moral philosopher would be no-one's first choice in an emergency Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fodder Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Fodder, some elements of your life story sound very like those of my husband. He is one of the cleverest people I know but he hated the formal confines of school and has worked his way up to being on the board of a big company via the IT route and the talent that he has for it. Trouble is, people like you and him would probably be excluded from even applying for a job in IT these days. Definitely not right 370ad, many thanks for that link. Going to keep it open during my lesson so I can refer to it can you tell English wasn't one of my best subjects? The opportunity for others to do the same is less likely in this industry and I try to keep this in mind if ever I'm asked an opinion about any candidates. There's been multiple times when I've been asked to move into managing people and I just think it's not for me. One of my old managers spent a lot of time and energy trying to convince me I'd make a superb manager and all the answers I have him made him even more convinced I would be but convinced myself I wouldnt That conversation is looming again shortly with another set of leaders so I'm bracing myself Well done to Mr Twobears as its always great to hear hard graft works 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Thanks Fodder If it's just lack of confidence that is holding you back from accepting a managerial role then I think you should get some training and give it a whirl but if it's really not for you then stand your ground My brother is the same. He got railroaded into management, hated it and asked for his old job back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyoldjanner Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Went to a grammar school were going to university was seen as the be all and end all and no other post school options were ever really discussed. Like most from my school I went to university (Cardiff) and hated it and ended up dropping out midway through the second year after getting a job as a projectionist (sadly now longer required after the digital revolution). Ended up working several years in low paid retail jobs after that before getting my current job. If I could rewind the clock I'd definitely choose to learn a trade rather than go to university. There are more people going to University than there are jobs that actually require having a degree these days. When I was earning minimum wage in the retail sector I worked with plenty of people with degrees who couldn't find a graduate job. I have also seen job adverts that state applicants must have a degree when the job itself really doesn't require one, I guess because so many people are coming out of university. However I would say there is a shift going on in some sectors towards skills rather than education. I work as civilian staff in the Police at the moment and they are far more interested in people being able to evidence things like communication, problem solving and team working skills than whether you have a degree or not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I understand what you are saying SuperStu but I think that forcing all further educational provision under the 'university' umbrella devalues the lot, vocational and academic, because now no-one actually knows how rigorous the standards are. As you have seen on this thread alone, some people still set great store by the credentials of the educational establishment itself so trying to democratise education will always fail in my opinion. Of course we need to produce people with both academic and vocational qualifications but one has always been judged to be more worthy even though we know that plumbers, mechanics etc actually keep the world running and that calling for a moral philosopher would be no-one's first choice in an emergency Yeah, I see what you're saying but I think judging a qualification by its origin not its content is one of the great barriers to social mobility. To me a set of three A stars from non selective school is worth the same as those same grades from a selective school. There are only a finite nunber of places available at "red brick" establishments, if these all go to the "best" people, that assumes there is only the exact same number of "best" people as there are spaces. Which is a daft assumption 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will370z Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 This will prove interesting reading and pretty much summarises the situation http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_337841.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 I understand what you are saying SuperStu but I think that forcing all further educational provision under the 'university' umbrella devalues the lot, vocational and academic, because now no-one actually knows how rigorous the standards are. As you have seen on this thread alone, some people still set great store by the credentials of the educational establishment itself so trying to democratise education will always fail in my opinion. Of course we need to produce people with both academic and vocational qualifications but one has always been judged to be more worthy even though we know that plumbers, mechanics etc actually keep the world running and that calling for a moral philosopher would be no-one's first choice in an emergency Yeah, I see what you're saying but I think judging a qualification by its origin not its content is one of the great barriers to social mobility. To me a set of three A stars from non selective school is worth the same as those same grades from a selective school. There are only a finite nunber of places available at "red brick" establishments, if these all go to the "best" people, that assumes there is only the exact same number of "best" people as there are spaces. Which is a daft assumption I agree with both assertions but many wouldn't. Half the battle I guess is that it is human nature to want to prove oneself (or one's offspring) 'better' than others. I think we all do it to a certain extent in at least some areas of our lives. Football wouldn't be half as much fun if the score always had to end up even!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Thanks Will Off to read and digest ready to spout out in Spanish in an hour's time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Hmm, after a quick glance at the key points it seems that attending a 'top' university probably will net you higher wages. Seems a shame that more male graduates succeed financially than female ones though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crb Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I've got a BEng in mechanical engineering and a MSc in Fluid dynamics....... And I own and run a flooring shop... Says it all really 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Its the way it goes sometimes! You set yourself up for a career then end up doing something else...no issue with that really, its hard to think you stay motivated doing the same thing for 50 years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbitstew Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) I was recruiting earlier this year for a developer for one of my teams. I spoke to a few recruitment agencies locally and they all said that because virtually everyone who approaches them looking for a job has a degree that a lot of the companies they deal with will now only accept people who have a degree from certain "top" universities, such as Oxford & Cambridge etc. So having a "degree" in order to get a job now adays apparently isnt good enough from some companies perspectives as every man & his dog has one. From the other side of things, as someone who did go to University myself I found it a total waste of time. Sure, the nightlife can be good but you have absolutely zero money to actually be able to afford to go out. I was living on £30 a week of my own personal savings as I didnt want to end up in debt and spent every spare minute working to help pay for it. I did a Computer Science degree which I thought would be the natural next follow on step from my A Level in Computer Science. However, it basically just covered the identical same stuff. There were people on the degree with no previous computer experience, so rather than it being a follow on learning experience, it was a complete waste of time so I jacked it in after 2 years and got myself a job. Of course by then a lot of my mates who left school at 16 were now earning a small fortune & driving flash cars as they got themselves into building trades. Funnily enough 20odd years on, those guys are still racking it in as building trades always seem to have loads of work. Over the years I gained all the experience "on the job" as it were and now have much more experience than someone who has just left uni. However, when I was last looking for work I found some companies would point blank not even consider me simply because I didnt have a degree. The funny thing was, they said that the degree didnt even have to be relevant to the job, as long as it was a degree. So I could have a hair dressing "degree" and they would happily consider me for an IT job. Mad! As an employer I have recruited more people than I can remember over the years and personally having a degree means nothing to me. I always go on experience and the persons personality/character. The only time it becomes relevant to me is if the employee has just (or recently) left uni and doesnt have much experience. Then his knowledge, course work and results help me to assess what type of experience or learning ability he has before I get him trained up in his new job. So in summary, I guess it depends upon which company you want to work for. If you want to work for some very established top big firm then you may find that they will only consider you if you have a degree from a top uni. Otherwise, you may well be okay without one. Edited November 21, 2014 by rabbitstew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Exactly that mate, for our grad roles at the company I work at we get 300+ applications per role. Its not possible to interview all of them to ascertain personality or get a feel for them (if anyone does have time then clearly they have the easiest job in the world). For grad roles i.e. getting their foot in the door early in their career I - clearly the easiest way to start cutting them down is appropriate degree/training and go from there - in the hundreds of CVs we receive for grad roles the experience is usually non-existent or not appropriate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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