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Engine mods - no Before / After dynos?


Pritchard

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Wait a second before the flamethrowers come out...

 

I've just read through the ENTIRE 7 page 'Dyno Results Page' sticky. However, the ONLY before and after dynos i can see are before and after the remap, and NOT before and after the bolt on mods.

 

I only question this, as I am booked in with Mark @ Abbey in a couple of weeks and I am keen on getting a dyno run in before the bolt ons are done.

That should then give me 3 curves:

1. Arrival. (stock)

2. pre-ecu tune (all bolts ons fited)

3. after ecu tune.

 

I cant see anyone else that has done this?

 

I'm booked in for the the P3 service, plus the following:

'06 airbox (Velocity stack mod)

Plenum spacer

Sports cats

Y pipe

Uprev tune.

 

Currently done:

Lightweight flywheel

Non-resonated Cobra.

 

Thought it would be a nice graph to see? :)

Watch this space.

 

Pritchard

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I missed a bit off the end lol....

 

so, my point being. theres plenty of graphs showing the difference the ECU tuning does, but nothing of the ''full package'' as it were.

Im just a little confuzzled to think that I may be the first? surely there must be 'full story' dyno on here for one chaps car?

 

Pritchard

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If you are happy to pay for the extra dyno time, go for it. :thumbs:

This ^^.

It's not cheap dyno time and most people just get all their mods done first themselves or at a garage then go on the dyno to reap the rewards afterwards.

 

I understand why it would be beneficial to have a before & after certain mods are fitted (to see what's giving you the best gains) but in the real most people just don't have the money to burn.

 

Good luck Pritchard with your plans. :thumbs:

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You can bolt on what you want in the way of mods but unfortunately it will not make any difference without an uprev.

 

exactly my point. where is this dyno that says this??

I couldnt even find one during my searches on the US side.

 

 

Meh. I dont mind paying the extra dyno. as long as Mark hasnt got anything else on it.

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You can bolt on what you want in the way of mods but unfortunately it will not make any difference without an uprev.
this. The Ecu is a clever bugger and basically blocks any power from bolt on mods until a uprev.

 

The most beneficial graph would be an uprev after each bolt on.

 

Which then comes into a daft cost.

 

 

#teamtarmac

 

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You can bolt on what you want in the way of mods but unfortunately it will not make any difference without an uprev.
this. The Ecu is a clever bugger and basically blocks any power from bolt on mods until a uprev.

 

The most beneficial graph would be an uprev after each bolt on.

 

Which then comes into a daft cost.

 

 

#teamtarmac

 

mmm. So the ECU reads more airflow through the MAF, and so retards the timing to counter? Odd.

 

Well i'll run the extra dyno anyway. lets see what happens. :)

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Mark holds all of our maps stored, before and after so you can ask him.

 

Select the year of car, before Uprev, and then after bolt on's.

 

I'm sure he'll help you out and give you access to see what the potential is.

 

But do take into account the following.

 

1. Each car is different (age/mileage/service history) results all differ

2. Weather (different ambient temps provide different results)

3. You can't compare one zed to another

 

Hope that helps.

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In my own layman terms, as I understand it as I am not too bright on these things, if you slap on a better intake for example, the ECU has to dial it all back to stock otherwise you would simply have too much air for the mixture, it can't ramp up the fuel to make it all work correctly without the map. It was the same on my Skyline, you could wind up the turbo but you needed either custom or generic map on it to ensure the mixture was correct at the higher level of air before you saw any increases. So why spend money and time dyno'ing a car when even the guys that run the dyno say that without the map you see no difference?

 

Caveat, all the above could be nonsense but its how I would think it through!

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I say go for it, if you're curious and don't mind spending extra money on dyno time, then go for it.

 

I for one am curious as to exactly how the ecu dials back to stock - after all, it might take a few runs with the new stuff on to return to standard, so the first run immediately after the modifications are on may see short term gains, but then get dialled back, and then an uprev makes those gains permanent.

 

But if you do go for it be sure to post the results!

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if time permits, could you do:

 

dyno run 1 - no mods

Fit all modifications

dyno run 2 - immediately after modifications have gone on

 

then go for a half hour drive, nice mix of a roads, and dual carriageways, get the engine working and give the ecu a chance to make whatever adaptions its going to make then come back to garage...

 

dyno run 3 - with modifications, but ecu should have now reset everything

dyno run 4 - with uprev map in place.

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I've run 2 cars with remapped ECUs, one of which had a piggyback before binned it, (dont do this! lol) and a standalone on another.

 

my knowledge in the grand scheme of things is 0. So i am only repeating experience, not knowledge, from being on the receving end of dyos before:

 

An ECU has to monitor several inputs in order to adjust timing and fueling. 2 of the primary ones being air in, (MAF or MAP) and air out (O2 sensor, AFR)

 

You fit a new exhaust system and intakes, the ECU doesnt know that you have. All it knows is that the inputs have changed. in this scenario we would expect the AFR to be leaner than before due to more airflow in total, so the ECU compensates by correcting the fueling to bring the AFR to a level it deems acceptable, as per the configured map.

 

im just saying ive been on the receivng end of an ECU requiring new maps to fully utilise new mods. However gains are indeed seen without a new map, and the AFR is kept within normal limits but the ECU.. but never that an ECU is so ''thick'' (because, thats whats being said here in the above posts, not that its smart!) that it does not correct the outputs.

 

 

Just talking out loud. But its just i've not seen a dyno yet that proves this 'ecu counters mods' theory.

Hence why this thread got started :) where is this proof? lol.

 

Pritchard

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I too have experience in mapping, mostly turbo cars, but I talked to Mark when I was considering buying the Up-rev software to map myself (but decided not to bother in the end) but I was never clear on just how the std ECU is able to prevent making extra power from more airflow,

 

I do know it uses comparator maps and the threshold's within to accomplish the changes, but I am not sure how,

The problem I see is that quite how the fueling can be changed when extra air is seen, as unless the fueling is allowed to weaken with the extra airflow, which is not healthy for the engine, retarding timing is also not ideal, the only other thing I can think of is that the ECU is able to manipulate the lambda feedback voltage

Edited by Tricky-Ricky
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I too have expedience in mapping, mostly turbo cars, but I talked to Mark when I was considering buying the Up-rev software to map myself (but decided not to bother in the end) but I was never clear on just how the std ECU is able to prevent making extra power from more airflow,

 

I do know it uses comparator maps and the threshold's within to accomplish the changes, but I am not sure how,

The problem I see is that quite how the fueling can be changed when extra air is seen, as unless the fueling is allowed to weaken with the extra airflow, which is not healthy for the engine, retarding timing is also not ideal, the only other thing I can think of is that the ECU is able to manipulate the lambda feedback voltage

 

^^ This.

Same page. :)

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Unfortunately I no longer have the software to view the data logs, all I could find was an O2 log that is from a fairly hard drive, its scaled by TPS v AFM but you get an idea of AFRs, as you can see it doesn't run ideal power AFRs until its at fairly high load.O2log.png

Edited by Tricky-Ricky
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Tricky-Ricky

nice chart. :) are those the pot-map afrs?

 

 

 

 

If you mean post mapping AFRs? then no.

I would be very interested to see a post up-rev Innovate AFR with the same scale, but I don't think many people use Innovate wide-bands.

Edited by Tricky-Ricky
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