AJRFulton Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) I would have thought they need "evidence" (photo etc) not just their word. If a police officer can randomly say someone was doing something when they werent the country would be in a world of trouble. That's exactly right, and it's been the case for years. You can be done for speeding if one police officer forms an opinion of you being over the limit. Corroborating evidence isn't actually required for that. I honestly find that crazy. In my case here, if this was something other than a road traffic case, and a prosecution lawyer presented this evidence after having it submitted by a highly decorated and reputable professional (that wasn't a police officer)..... it would be laughed out of court after being torn to pieces by the defence. As said, it is only a £100 fine, and whilst not an insignificant amount.... it isn't really going to affect me too much. However, it's the sense of injustice - I know I was wearing a belt and I know they couldn't see if I was or not from their vantage point 20 odd metres behind me, that makes me want to fight it. Although I am starting to concede that it probably will prove futile and just need to bend over and take it - which genuinely angers me! The fact the police officer who mainly did the talking was needlessly obnoxious, sarcastic and a little rude/abrupt with his tone towards me (without actually saying anything out of order) just makes me think they were being vindictive after taking a dislike to me. It may well of been a genuine mistake from them, but it makes me wonder. I got the sense he loved giving me the fine and putting me in my place. I can relate to that, I've had bad days at work and have a job description that can make life harder for people I dislike if I choose to (work under health and safety). However... I'm not a public servant, and making life harder for people just means I am being anal and want things done by the book, not issuing them with a fine! Edited June 5, 2014 by AJRFulton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gudzy Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Its justifiable that you're angry, I'm angry about it and I'm not out of pocket because of it! I think you are just going to have to pay it though but I would write letters complaining about it too as has been mentioned. It will probably make you feel better about the situation if nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraziekatz1 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 This has just made me so angry....I think you did really well for not decking the officers, not sure I could show such restraint. I hope there is something you can do and don't forget what goes around comes around.....they'll get theirs when it's due. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spursmaddave Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhackyWill Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Having read this thread most of the day, as it also angers me having posted my experience at Tesco, just lucky I spotted a CCTV camera at the entrance and he could not nick me, as he knew without having to look at the CCTV that I WAS wearing a seat belt. Anyway we did a little experiment this afternoon with my 350Z and you cannot see if the driver is wearing a seat belt or not from the rear or indeed if the passenger is wearing one, you have to be almost level with the drivers door before you can see the belt in position, so if they stopped you from behind saying you were not wearing a belt, they must be a rare breed of police who can see around corners...!! Try this yourself and video it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJRFulton Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 See when writing a letter, I'll post it up here first, but... Should I go something like this. Short introduction as to why I am writing Explain my journey and why I was making it Explain how/why I was stopped. Explain why I am aggrieved by this (detail officer name) Explain my reasoning as to being aggrieved (I was wearing a belt, and don't believe they can even see the seatbelt mounts in a following car) Explain the officer was condescending, arrogant and abrupt Close with a paragraph stating I intend to pay the fine as I believe I have no chance of winning in court, but make it clear I find this very unfair. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chubbster Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 See when writing a letter, I'll post it up here first, but... Should I go something like this. Short introduction as to why I am writing Explain my journey and why I was making it Explain how/why I was stopped. Explain why I am aggrieved by this (detail officer name) Explain my reasoning as to being aggrieved (I was wearing a belt, and don't believe they can even see the seatbelt mounts in a following car) Explain the officer was condescending, arrogant and abrupt Close with a paragraph stating I intend to pay the fine as I believe I have no chance of winning in court, but make it clear I find this very unfair. Perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhackyWill Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 See when writing a letter, I'll post it up here first, but... Should I go something like this. Short introduction as to why I am writing Explain my journey and why I was making it Explain how/why I was stopped. Explain why I am aggrieved by this (detail officer name) Explain my reasoning as to being aggrieved (I was wearing a belt, and don't believe they can even see the seatbelt mounts in a following car) Explain the officer was condescending, arrogant and abrupt Close with a paragraph stating I intend to pay the fine as I believe I have no chance of winning in court, but make it clear I find this very unfair. Why bother if your going to pay the fine, tell them you intend to take legal advice on this and you await their response to this letter ...If you tell them you intend to pay the fine they will put in the "tare up and laugh file"..!! Let them respond, you have not said you wont pay the fine you just want a response to your letter this will go to the Constabulary Local Inspector for a comment, before they reply to you. God Luck mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJRFulton Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) See when writing a letter, I'll post it up here first, but... Should I go something like this. Short introduction as to why I am writing Explain my journey and why I was making it Explain how/why I was stopped. Explain why I am aggrieved by this (detail officer name) Explain my reasoning as to being aggrieved (I was wearing a belt, and don't believe they can even see the seatbelt mounts in a following car) Explain the officer was condescending, arrogant and abrupt Close with a paragraph stating I intend to pay the fine as I believe I have no chance of winning in court, but make it clear I find this very unfair. Why bother if your going to pay the fine, tell them you intend to take legal advice on this and you await their response to this letter ...If you tell them you intend to pay the fine they will put in the "tare up and laugh file"..!! Let them respond, you have not said you wont pay the fine you just want a response to your letter this will go to the Constabulary Local Inspector for a comment, before they reply to you. God Luck mate. Problem is I've what 28 days to pay... what do I do if it takes more than 28 days for them to respond to me? I don't really want a £100 fine to double or worse. I've kinda accepted that I've no chance of beating them on this, and all I can do is voice my displeasure. Edited June 5, 2014 by AJRFulton 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 See when writing a letter, I'll post it up here first, but... Should I go something like this. Short introduction as to why I am writing Explain my journey and why I was making it Explain how/why I was stopped. Explain why I am aggrieved by this (detail officer name) Explain my reasoning as to being aggrieved (I was wearing a belt, and don't believe they can even see the seatbelt mounts in a following car) Explain the officer was condescending, arrogant and abrupt Close with a paragraph stating I intend to pay the fine as I believe I have no chance of winning in court, but make it clear I find this very unfair, knowing it is two officers words against mine were I to challenge the alleged offence. Maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhackyWill Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 See when writing a letter, I'll post it up here first, but... Should I go something like this. Short introduction as to why I am writing Explain my journey and why I was making it Explain how/why I was stopped. Explain why I am aggrieved by this (detail officer name) Explain my reasoning as to being aggrieved (I was wearing a belt, and don't believe they can even see the seatbelt mounts in a following car) Explain the officer was condescending, arrogant and abrupt Close with a paragraph stating I intend to pay the fine as I believe I have no chance of winning in court, but make it clear I find this very unfair. Why bother if your going to pay the fine, tell them you intend to take legal advice on this and you await their response to this letter ...If you tell them you intend to pay the fine they will put in the "tare up and laugh file"..!! Let them respond, you have not said you wont pay the fine you just want a response to your letter this will go to the Constabulary Local Inspector for a comment, before they reply to you. God Luck mate. Problem is I've what 28 days to pay... what do I do if it takes more than 28 days for them to respond to me? I don't really want a £100 fine to double or worse. I've kinda accepted that I've no chance of beating them on this, and all I can do is voice my displeasure. Surely you have now put it into dispute by querying their decision. Please check this out as I'm not saying this will work, best to check it our legally. It does stop some offences if you query them and they have to reply. I think you have grounds to ask questions, and it will be interesting how the answer them. If they don't reply I would then ask "why", keep's adding fuel to your case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richy Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I thought the police had cameras in their car, and the film would be needed to prove their case if it went to court ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsexr Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Find out if you can appeal without it going to court. If not do the sensible thing and pay the fine but make a complaint. Explain you only paid the fine to avoid court but do not accept you are in the wrong. If you are innocent state your case as its easy nowadays with digital pictures and email. Bear in mind that others may have complained about this policeman and your complaint could be the one that makes them investigate him. Stand up for your principals but do it in a relaxed way using the tools at your disposal, that way it wont wind you up and think of the satisfaction when you prove the point that they could not see from behind. You dont need to pay for legal help just present your case yourself with your evidence stating what the guy said. If you get no joy then involve your MP. When you write to him he has to answer and you can explain that you are approaching it this way as legal costs to protest your innocence are too prohibitive. I`ve written to my MP twice and they have to see it through. Thats what they get paid for. Yes its hassle but take your time and make your point. Trouble with the world today is not many people can be bothered to make a stand over a principal. Just keep it in perspective and dont get wound up. If nothing else it will act as therapy for the anger you feel at the moment for being accused of lying. If you didnt, prove it..... It will be worth it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJRFulton Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 To whom it may concern,I am writing to you to document my displeasure at acquiring a £100 fixed penalty notice for not wearing a seatbelt whilst driving a motor vehicle. The journey in question took place on the 4th June 2014, when driving a white Nissan 370Z, registration *******, I left my home in Ayrshire at approximately 1830hrs to travel the 170mls to work for a client in Tyneside. This is a routine trip for me that I have made many times over the prior 10yrs, typically taking a little over 3hrs to travel at that time of night. Other than a short stop for fuel at the BP garage in my home town of Beith, I made no further stops until being flashed to pull over. It was on the A69 stint of this journey, in a stretch around the Bardon Mill area and whilst in a line of traffic behind a slower vehicle, that I noticed a BMW police car behind me. The car followed me for about 5 minutes before putting on the blue lights and pulling me over in a layby a few miles east bound at approximately 2100hrs. Police officer **** ****** approached my car and gestured to roll down the window, whilst the other officer appeared to be checking my tyres. The conversation between myself and officer ****** to this point seemed fairly routine, although I did feel officer ******* was being a little abrupt. Up until this point my assumption was that I had been pulled over as having a high powered car, coupled with being stuck behind slower traffic on a stretch of road that is known for accidents; your officers were pulling me over to remind me to drive safe and give my vehicle a random check – policing I would have absolutely no problem with at all. However, after taking my initial details, officer ****** told me to follow him to the back of the police car, where I was informed that I was going to be issued a penalty notice (number *********) for not wearing a seat belt. This came as a great surprise to me, as I know that I was wearing a seat belt. The officer then explained that he seen me put it on after I was pulled over, again this is completely incorrect; I was definitely wearing my seatbelt for the duration of my journey from Ayrshire, only taking it off when asked to leave the car. Even in the very slight chance that I had forgotten to fasten my belt on my departure, the car has an audible and visual seat belt warning system and it is unlikely I am not going to notice, or act on this in over 2hrs of driving. It also should be noted that from standing behind my car, it is in my opinion that is impossible to observe whether any occupant of the car is wearing a seat belt unless you are effectively looking in the back window (please see attached photographs). I would also like to complain about the mannerism of officer *******, whom I feel was condescending, abrupt and arrogant, with no provocation from myself. I appreciate that police officers have a hard job that I certainly do not envy, but I feel that there was absolutely no need for him to speak to me in the tone he did. I strongly feel that coupled with my perceived sense of injustice, his tone only added to my anger. There is what I have just now, I don't really know how to close the letter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chubbster Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 ...I would appreciate a response to this complaint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richy Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I wouldn't mention that you thought you were being pulled over for having a high powered car etc. Personally would just say that you were suprised to be pulled over but assumed it was just a routine check. Keep it simple. Send the letter recorded delivery and mention this in the letter. You wouldn't want them to deny receiving it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Don't complain about the attitude, it takes away from the fact that you're really complaining about the ticket. Write the letter as above, leaving out the attitude bits, then wait. If you hear from them before the 28 days, then great. If you don't, then pay the fine and then write another letter complaining about the lack of communication. If you still don't hear anything then you can write a further letter saying that they appear to be as rude as the coppers that stopped you 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rothers2901 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) I don't usually comment on such threads but. Don't wast your time writing the letter the summons office they don't deal with mitigating circumstances save it for court if you decide to contest the FPN. They are under no obligation to reply to you within the allotted time frame to which you have to respond to the ticket. This your responsibility to do so. Don't run the risk of not complying with your obligations because you haven't hear back from them in time. Pay the fine, don't pay the fine or request a court date to give your side of the events then raise the issues. It will be highly unlikely that you will succeed in your claim under these circumstances unless you can prove a procedural fault on behalf of the officer issuing the ticket. If you have a problem with how you were dealt with by the officer then complain about that separately through the correct channels. Life is like a good Sunday Breakfast. Sometimes when you drop your toast it lands butter side up (Great), sometimes butter side down (Crap) this is your butter side down moment unfortunately. Good luck in whatever you decided you may get a (butter side up) result. Edited June 6, 2014 by rothers2901 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhackyWill Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Butter side up or butter side down Rothers....Its just plainly not right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudman Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Have a read of this http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/complaints May be useful ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rothers2901 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Butter side up or butter side down Rothers....Its just plainly not right... Your quite right, but at the time and if the officers belief is such and is re-enforced by his observations such as leaning over the the other side of the car to get a wallet which looks as if the driver is fastening their seat belt what are they to do? Who says who is right? maybe AJRFulton wasn't wearing their seat belt? maybe the officer was mistaken? that's why you have options. Bear in mind that if you contest the ticket the the onus is on the prosecution and the burden of proof is beyond reasonable doubt and thus favours the defendant. If you could provide a reasonable argument that the officers were mistaken by way of a photograph with a driver in the drivers seat and a reasonable distance from behind then you could get a favourable decision. Let put things in perspective. £100 yes its a lot of money to have to pay if your in the right, no penalty points and not disclosable to the insurance. Go to court argue you case, have a day off work get a favourable decision (moral Victory) grea,t but still cost you £100 for loss of earnings plus a solicitor if you employ one. I just look at things objectively and realise sometimes life deals crappy cards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJRFulton Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) Even winning the case, proving the cops couldn't of seen me, do you still have to pay lawyers fees? Obviously going the court route is going to cost far more than just paying the fine. I'd need a hotel, travel to Newcastle, and a day off work. Even without lawyers fees that is over 500 quid. End of the day, for all the evidence I could gather with pictures of the car, distance travelled, audible alarm, etc. All evidence that would suggest it's unlikely I wasn't wearing a belt without being conclusive but.... would it count for anything against the word of a police officer? Edited June 6, 2014 by AJRFulton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rothers2901 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Yes your legal fees are you responsibility so would still have to pay Unless you fall into the bracket of being able to get legal aid which i doubt. You could only submit evidence at court as my earlier comment re the sommons office do not do mitigation. Your question (would it count of anything against the police officer?) if the evidence you can submit is such that you can show reasonable doubt then its not about who is beleived. Another point to consider is that Magistrates only make decisions on facts not law. So in the event that you could demonstrate reasonable dout and the officers can only say what they have seen then the possibility is there for you to have a favouable outcome. Its up to you whether you think the potential costs outway the moral victory. But please be cautious in your decision making. If you loose you will not only be made to pay an increased fine but court costs for the hearing. A cost for this type of hearing about the £600 figure but it is flexible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioneabee Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 so, if he wins, he can't claim court costs against them, but if he loses, then they can inflict their costs ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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