Suspension enhancements - is this the correct order?

[ChrisB]

Interesting all this. I must say that I put Eibach ARBs on my JDM last year, and I absolutely love them! Really! Almost night and day, using settings soft front, medium rear, cornering is on rails now (and I love that).

 

I also bought a set of Zeta-S (but to my ETERNAL shame, I still haven't fitted them since last Autumn - too pretty to spoil over winter - can't take car off the road for too long - yadda yadda).

 

It's tricky getting dynamics right certainly I'm hoping the Zetas (when I eventually fit them) will take a bit of bump off my current JDM ride Adjustability is a good thing, although as people have mentioned on other threads, once a setting is found, 90% of the time it stays there. My old GTV6 was lowered and had spax dampers in the early 1990s. It seemed 14 (out of 30) clicks were permanently ideal for everything

[Rosssco]

Try changing the stiffness setting on the Whitelines? Also, perhaps tweak the tyre pressures a little - maybe a few psi less on the rears (i know they change anyway). Nothing ground breaking but these are free tweaks with you're current set-up..

 

Or, sell the Whitelines (I wouldn't personnally) and add some more cash for either coilover or Bilstein dampers. The dampers alone may actually give you the control you need, but not many seem to use them, so it's a bit of a stab in the dark..

 

Problem with stiffer ARB's (about the only real problem I see) is that they are more affected by road camber changes, and reduce traction under certain circumstance. May partially explain why they don't feel quite as good on the road as opposed to a track. Of course you will know what roads and what tracks you have been driving to make that assessment..

Edited April 17, 2014 by Rosssco

[Dynamic Turtle]

Try changing the stiffness setting on the Whitelines? Also, perhaps tweak the tyre pressures a little - maybe a few psi less on the rears (i know they change anyway). Nothing ground breaking but these are free tweaks with you're current set-up..

 

Or, sell the Whitelines (I wouldn't personnally) and add some more cash for either coilover or Bilstein dampers. The dampers alone may actually give you the control you need, but not many seem to use them, so it's a bit of a stab in the dark..

 

Problem with stiffer ARB's (about the only real problem I see) is that they are more affected by road camber changes, and reduce traction under certain circumstance. May partially explain why they don't feel quite as good on the road as opposed to a track. Of course you will know what roads and what tracks you have been driving to make that assessment..

 

I will try adjusting the tyre psi first but i'll have to get a garage to modify the stiffness of the ARBs (incidentally I didn't realise they had different stiffness settings - thought that's why people buy adjustable droplinks? yes I am a noob...)

 

noted re road cambers although tbh the rear feels drifty and disconnected pretty much all of the time, and subjectively worse when the tyres are hot.

[Rosssco]

I think the adjustable droplinks are mainly just for those running lowered ride heights, as this affects the operating angle of the ARB.

 

They don't increase the stiffness of the ARB, although they may change the stiffness relationship front to rear. Standard length droplink are all you need.

 

Yep, the stiffness is adjustable on the aftermarket ARB's. Not sure what settings people go for with Whitelines, but I've read with Eibach's, softest setting on the front, and mid stiffness setting on the rear gives a relatively neutral balance, and that's what I'll try when I get mind fitted. Dead easy to adjust, shouldn't take a garage 10 mins once up on the ramp assuming everthing comes off easy enough..

[Daryl]

Personally id knock a few PSI out the tyres first and then have another drive on the roads. 35 sounds too high to be honest, try dropping to 32 and see how you get on. I know it sounds a small amount, but if your running on the centre section of the rear and front tyres, handling will be compromised.

[Daryl]

And dont go to a garage to adjust your ARB's, i can do mine with the car on flat stuff, but I run 19's and standard height suspension. Once you have done it once or twice, its alot easier. Shouldnt take you more than 40 minutes first time round. Doing stuff like that yourself is good practice, and saves you some money. What made you go for the Whiteline ARB's over the Eibach ones? Im sure they are all much of a much ness, but just curious.

[docwra]

IMO coilovers are much better value than ARB's, the adjustment alone speaks for itself

 

Kinda that, really - standard 350Z suspension is a bit soft IMO and doesnt give great feedback, regardless of what you do with the ARB's you arent going to change that, most GT cars are the same, I did all this with 200SX's and ended up running no rear ARB at all as with the coilovers it wasnt needed.

 

I know youve bitten the bullet now but Id always start with the damping and work back from there, believe it or not you will also notice the lower centre of gravity as well.

[Daryl]

Iv got the Eibach ARB's fitted, have done for over a year now, and looking seriously at getting the MeisterR Zeta S coilovers to compliment them. The car is over 10 years old now, and pretty sure the springs and dampers have seen better days, not to mention trying to be a compromise between comfort and sport. With the coilovers, atleast I can adjust them to be specific to how I want the car. When I do the odd track day, I can lower it a little more, and stiffen the dampers up a little to help. For road use, i can back them off and enjoy the comfort

[Rosssco]

It all comes down to what you want from you're car and how you intend to use it. For most who use their car everyday / frequently, but still like to "enjoy" it when the right road appears (like me), the adjustability that coilovers offer is wasted on them, and they'd be better spending on non-adjustable suspension which if properly designed and spec'd, will perform as well as highly adjustable stuff. It will often perform better, as extra adjustment can mean more areas to go wrong if not not done correctly. I wne through a phase of adjustable suspension, and had this constant nagging this wondering if it was set properly, if the ride height was optimal, and if the damping rate was ideal...

 

The reality is that most OEM dampers, in combination with things like bushes, will not perform as the car rolled out the factory, so the suspension will feel compromised to an extent. People then fit new aftermarket components (such as coilover and bushes) and believe they have transformed the car for the better, when in fact installing new OEM components or mildly uprated items would have a similar effect on perception.

 

For a road car, I always found a slightly less focused, but more rounded suspension set of, that sacrificed some of the connection offered by stiff spings and hard dampening control, for a more compliant set up that "flowed" better with our roads. Some of that percieved softness and float is actually compliance and necessary for the road IMO. I hated having to back off on certain road sections because I knew the suspension couldn't cope with it, then being frustrated stuck behind someone on the "good" parts..

 

Its all very personal of course, and I'm not disagreeing with you chaps on you're liking for coilovers, just my 2p.

[Dynamic Turtle]

Well I had a quick look at the ARB settings today while replacing my pads and can see that the rear bar has been put on the middle of three stiffness settings (only two settings on the front bar). also, I noticed that the nearside ARB has an extra link attached to it (photo attached) which the offside doesn't have. Anyone know why it's there?

 

Still haven't gotten around to reducing the rear PSI but will do it tomorrow. I'm a little reticent to do this because iI was under the impression that lower PSI doesn't necessarily increase traction?

 

Re coilovers/ARBs there doesn't seem to be a concrete consensus and as I said, we have to factor in the reality that for those of us without access to a ramp and/or manskills, the CO route is a lot more expensive (Abbey quoted £450 for ARBs + fitting and £1250 for BC CO + fitting)

 

I chose the Whiteline ARBs simply because they were £80 cheaper than the Eibachs. £300 odd quid is still a lot for two bits of bent steel.

 

Thanks again for all the help. You guys wock.

[Dynamic Turtle]

Incidentally now that I'm looking at that photo, do those rear drop links look 2 years old to you? They seem awfully rusted...

 

Then again the eibach rear camber arms are only 3 months old and look 3 years old lol.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Dynamic Turtle

[Rosssco]

The small additional link is just a headlight level sensor. It doesn't have any effect on the operation of the ARB itself.

 

Lowering the tyre pressure should have an effect on traction to an extent, but is really something you can only try out yourself as there's many variables, including the tyre type itself.. Just something worth checking as its quick and easy to do. May have no significant effect what so ever.

[wizard]

Let's clarify some points. It seems that achieving a more compliant ride over sh*tty tarmac and bumps whilst simultaneously obtaining sharper handling performance and turn-in are mutually exclusive without a substantial investment in the right gear (or buying something with a Lotus badge).

 

Id disagree TBH, as Ive said elsewhere the HSD's improved pretty much every aspect on my JDM - turn in was sharper, feedback better, body roll massively reduced but they are still as compliant as standard was. Even on bumpy roads theyve got that little bit more give than most coilies do, so rather than bouncing off into a field the car keeps its composure.

 

IMO coilovers are much better value than ARB's, the adjustment alone speaks for itself .......... and Im also thinking it shouldnt take more than 2 hours to fit them, I certainly paid less than £100

 

Listen to this man!!

I have had eibach front and rear ARBs... Tried different settings and didn't notice much difference. Think for this platform it's more placebo effect.

The OEM bars is pretty good and strong.

 

Coilovers, alignment, and good tyres are your best bet. I'm getting mine fitted now. As was stated earlier, you have to compromise somewhere with ride comfort. I share your frustration with London roads though.

 

If you have adjustable ones, you can change settings for when you go on track and then change back for road driving. Yes I know, not ideal, we'd all like electronic damping to do that sort of thing for us!

Edited April 24, 2014 by wizard

[docwra]

Re coilovers/ARBs there doesn't seem to be a concrete consensus

 

There rarely is with suspension. Im not having a pop at anyone here before I get started, but ..........

 

most people will go through their entire ownership staying with stock suspension, maybe they will try 2-3 different types of tyres but thats it, for obvious reasons they cant really give any input into this kind of thing.

 

Even the adventurous types will rarely have tried more than a set of ARB's and perhaps a set of shocks and springs, maybe even a set of coilovers at a push, they might even have done a couple of trackdays. Perhaps the really experienced and adventurous will have had another car on coilovers before, are these the people you need to take advice from?

 

No, they arent really. 3 suspension variants on 2 different cars does not an expert make, you need to have tried a whole load of variations before you can give accurate advice IMO. Traders often have a lot more experience but are also biased in what they are telling you, so may not be your best bet either.

My advice is still that ARB's arent going to make a lot of difference as the Zed doesnt roll much to start with, its problem is that its too soft and too heavy so damping therefore has to be the first thing you look at. Experience also tells me that with the right coils and the right setup bumpy roads are just as easy to smash down at speed as on shocks and springs, and a lot easier than with the OE cheese string suspension as well.

[Dynamic Turtle]

docwra I can very much confirm that "toyt arbs" make a huge difference to the handling. In my case, it's made the zed ridiculously tail-happy which is great for shorts blasts in clement conditions (and on track) but was exhausting on a 500 mile road trip last week. A better, more confident driver might relish the challenge and being on edge all the time, but following two bad crashes in the past two months, I should be forgiven for having turned a little ginger.

 

I'll keep experimenting and am not looking to create a weapon, just subtle improvements that keep me interested in the car (over a far more costly option of buying another one).

 

DT

[Rosssco]

Re coilovers/ARBs there doesn't seem to be a concrete consensus

 

My advice is still that ARB's arent going to make a lot of difference as the Zed doesnt roll much to start with, its problem is that its too soft and too heavy so damping therefore has to be the first thing you look at. Experience also tells me that with the right coils and the right setup bumpy roads are just as easy to smash down at speed as on shocks and springs, and a lot easier than with the OE cheese string suspension as well.

 

I agree with this, but my view (not having experience of different 350Z set-ups) is that this could be accomplished by a good set of dampers (such as the previous mention Bilstein B6 or B8, which are set-up / valved to work with standard or lowered spring respectively) rather than coilovers for a road car. Dynamic Turtle sounds like he will use his car partly on track, so may make use of the flexibility offered by adjustable dampers.

 

I haven't fitted my Eibach ARB's as yet, so can't comment on them, but I feel there is definately room for improvement with respect to roll-resistance. Whether this roll resistance is matched by the damper performance on 50k mile dampers is another matter! If not, they will be up far sale soon Of course going too stiff on ARB's withut commensurate upgrades has negatives just as stiff springs and poor damping performance does.

[Dynamic Turtle]

Re coilovers/ARBs there doesn't seem to be a concrete consensus

 

My advice is still that ARB's arent going to make a lot of difference as the Zed doesnt roll much to start with, its problem is that its too soft and too heavy so damping therefore has to be the first thing you look at. Experience also tells me that with the right coils and the right setup bumpy roads are just as easy to smash down at speed as on shocks and springs, and a lot easier than with the OE cheese string suspension as well.

 

I agree with this, but my view (not having experience of different 350Z set-ups) is that this could be accomplished by a good set of dampers (such as the previous mention Bilstein B6 or B8, which are set-up / valved to work with standard or lowered spring respectively) rather than coilovers for a road car. Dynamic Turtle sounds like he will use his car partly on track, so may make use of the flexibility offered by adjustable dampers.

 

I haven't fitted my Eibach ARB's as yet, so can't comment on them, but I feel there is definately room for improvement with respect to roll-resistance. Whether this roll resistance is matched by the damper performance on 50k mile dampers is another matter! If not, they will be up far sale soon Of course going too stiff on ARB's withut commensurate upgrades has negatives just as stiff springs and poor damping performance does.

 

I believe someone was getting the bilsteins and will follow his progress with interest.

 

As for using the car on track, yes, but like many others this accounts for about 1% of the car's total mileage (but 50% of the running costs, haha) and is therefore of very marginal importance. I just want a good setup for "fast road" use, as much the term makes me cringe...

Edited April 24, 2014 by Dynamic Turtle

[docwra]

docwra I can very much confirm that "toyt arbs" make a huge difference to the handling

 

Thats my point though, compared to what? Do you think they make more or less difference to turn in than coilovers, or even changing tyre pressures? What about if you were running higher rebound on the dampers, or changed the damper body for different droop? Have you considered whether changing your rollcentres by putting new knuckles on would make a difference?

 

I didnt want to come across as an expert, because Im not, but on my last car I ran 5 different types of coilies, 2 sets of springs and shocks, 5 different ARB combinations, 4 diffs, literally innumerate tyres running every variation or pressures, 4 or 5 different alignment settings and used it for commuting to work and back, trackdays and drifting in anything up to 4th gear.

You want to know the performances differences between HKS Hipermax and Tein Flex coilovers? No problem. You want to know whether a 1.5 way or 2 way diff would suit your driving style? Easy. Tell you about the difference driving a 200SX on 12/10, 10/8, 8/6, 6/4 spring rates? Ive done it. Drifting on the same? Probably the same answer.

 

Its easy to say something makes a big difference, its a lot more difficult to quantify that relative to other options if you havent been there and done it, for instance your drifty back end is unlikely to be anything to do with the ARB's, I can also tell you that a degree of toe out will probabkly resolve the problem, assuming its not mega shagged bushes that are causing it.

 

Putting harder ARBs on 1500KG of car thats suspended on blancmange is not the way to go IMO.

Edited April 24, 2014 by docwra

[RobPhoboS]

Putting harder ARBs on 1500KG of car thats suspended on blancmange is not the way to go IMO.

 

 

I'm doing the bracing first, then will decide about whether or not to go ARB or CO/Damper change.

[docwra]

Funnily enough I cant speak for the bracing TBH, I think Wasso has had his done and rates it though

[Dynamic Turtle]

docwra I can very much confirm that "toyt arbs" make a huge difference to the handling

 

Thats my point though, compared to what? Do you think they make more or less difference to turn in than coilovers, or even changing tyre pressures? What about if you were running higher rebound on the dampers, or changed the damper body for different droop? Have you considered whether changing your rollcentres by putting new knuckles on would make a difference?

 

I didnt want to come across as an expert, because Im not, but on my last car I ran 5 different types of coilies, 2 sets of springs and shocks, 5 different ARB combinations, 4 diffs, literally innumerate tyres running every variation or pressures, 4 or 5 different alignment settings and used it for commuting to work and back, trackdays and drifting in anything up to 4th gear.

You want to know the performances differences between HKS Hipermax and Tein Flex coilovers? No problem. You want to know whether a 1.5 way or 2 way diff would suit your driving style? Easy. Tell you about the difference driving a 200SX on 12/10, 10/8, 8/6, 6/4 spring rates? Ive done it. Drifting on the same? Probably the same answer.

 

Its easy to say something makes a big difference, its a lot more difficult to quantify that relative to other options if you havent been there and done it, for instance your drifty back end is unlikely to be anything to do with the ARB's, I can also tell you that a degree of toe out will probabkly resolve the problem, assuming its not mega shagged bushes that are causing it.

 

Putting harder ARBs on 1500KG of car thats suspended on blancmange is not the way to go IMO.

 

I was merely stating that compared to the setup I was running prior to adding the ARBs, the handling had subsequently changed in the stated fashion. I didn't provide any context to help others quantify the magnitude of the change - I obviously can't do that. What I can say, is that I didn't like the change as it pushed the car too far to the extreme of what I was initially looking for.

 

Arguably the only institutions with the means to perform the kind of in-depth testing you describe are manufacturers and motorsport teams, and certainly beyond the means of this humble turtle. I came to the forum with a question - can I improve some subjective handling deficiencies within a specific budget? I was given some options and not one person said a universal solution would be achievable for anything like £500 and I accepted that. I'm not looking to turn the Zed into an Evora in the handling stakes, I just wanted a little more of X and slightly less of Y. The experiment failed, hence why I'm seeking additional counsel, which may or may not result in success! No harm in trying ;-)

 

DT

[docwra]

I hate to be "that guy", but Sam Mcgoo suggested a refreshed standard setup, GT4 suggested a few changes that would come in at less than £500, I said coilovers before ARB's, Briggsybriggs said the same and that was all on the first page.

 

Instead of any of those options youve spent your money on ARB's, which are great but werent really what folks were suggesting TBF. You mention the change pushed the car to the extreme, again, I dont want to be a tosser but I said:

 

IMO coilovers are much better value than ARB's' date=' the adjustment alone speaks for itself [/quote']

 

Adjustment is always a good thing

[Dynamic Turtle]

Other issues I had to face were budget (COs were £800 more), conflicting advice about what to do first (no no coils will make the ride too stiff!), ramp time (it's my only car) and a few other practicalities I won't bore you with. I did not anticipate this being a one-shot solution but it was all I could afford at the time. I may change back to OEM or add other bits and pieces - dampers/coils/bushes etc over time depending on what I feel is necessary.

 

Is this an arbitrary and unscientific exercise? Absolutely. But I'm a complete noob and not ashamed to make mistakes and deliver sweeping generalisations about an extremely complex engineering conundrum on a "public" forum.

[RobPhoboS]

BTW - it IS a good thread !

Actually very useful info here.

[Rosssco]

This is a good thread! Another owners forum I used to frequent consistantly descended in bickering whenever suspension set-ups were mentioned - there was always a bigger ego!

 

Just re-reading the first page, where it's all pretty much said TBH. DT does say he likes the standard suspension, but is after more control in roll, as it's still a car used for it's GT-ness so OEM suspension works fine.. You are not interested in reducing ride height, like the suppleness of the standard springs, and probably won't worry too much about playing with the damping adjustment, in which case it makes no sense to go for coilovers...

 

So the ARB's, although perhaps not optimised and needing some minor suspension tweaks, are probably the right choice. It's easy to say try this / try that, but if you can't install and replace these things readily yourself, the cost and hassle becomes significant. You maybe just the geo looked at, and as above, perhaps some toe or camber adjustment. The next step (if you felt you needed it)would likely be stiffer dampers like Bilsteins (sounds like I sell them ) for improved damper control. I read on here from someone who tried them, and they seem to feel they do not negatively affect the ride quality to any significant degree.

 

I might actually have a pair of OEM Rev-up ARB's available once I fit my Eibach's, but I'd question these being much of an upgrade TBH... 17% on a spring rate is about noticable, but on an ARB its a relatively small amount..

Edited April 24, 2014 by Rosssco