Dynamic Turtle Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 OK chaps after some near misses on the handling side I think it's time to sort our the Zed's suspension because I feel like I'm getting a little too much body roll in/out of fast corners and the pot holes are a bloody nightmare too. I'm happy with the speed of the car, the HEL brake lines are upgraded and the pagids resist fade and bite hard. New MPSS are going on my standard 18" rays later this week and I want to get the suspension sorted before I pay for the geometry work. I've had the superpro bush treatment all round so that's sorted. What's the next step? After researching the forum it appears that uprated ARBs are typically the first step, followed by coilovers? I have the budget to do both but would prefer to stagger it unless advised otherwise. Not too fussed about lowering but a 2cm drop would be bearable but nothing more. And please NO ADVICE FROM TRADERS. You pop-up at every opportunity to market your wares (it's getting a bit tiresome TBH) and while I understand you have a business to run and want to be active in the community and I respect your experience in these matters, sometimes we just want advice from users and those without a product to sell. Once I've garnered some opinion I'll contact the usual suspects for options and prices. Anyway 1) ARBs, ARBs + COs or just COs to begin with? 2) Uprated ARBs seem to be bloody expensive for a bit of bent piping? Are they pretty much of a muchness? 3) CO options - I don't want to do this on the cheap but would appreciate a range of price/performance options 4) Any idea how many hours a garage should reasonably undertake to complete ARB or ARB+CO work? I'm not chasing nurburgring lap times and simply want a more confident turn-in and handling over lumps and bumps. I absolutely do not want a harder ride than the standard/OEM set-up because my Zed is a GT, not a track weapon. It needs to retain a decent degree of cruising comfort (for the lengthy periods I seem to spend on motorways these days). Many thanks, DT 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake4136 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I have no experience with arbs but I've got mpss and coilovers and a pretty decent fast road set up. Firstly mpss are brilliant, a good geo set up is very important! Go to a local Motorsport team or travel further to someone who knows what they are doing and understands what you want out of the car. Not just getting it back between factory settings. Arbs would have been next on my list if the car was staying =[ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic Turtle Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Thanks Jake, the car's with Abbey at the moment and i will speak to them about what they can do. Why did you go for coilovers before ARBs and subsequently not bothered with them? Just want to know because it seems like people tend to go for the latter before coils...thanks, DT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryl Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Iv got MPSS on 19"s and Eibach ARB's, and find the handling transformed. The ARB's alone are a brilliant upgrade, and if you are suffering from roll, then id go for a set of these first, and see if they will do what you require before going the CO route. On the hardest setting, they are too hard for the road, so iv got softest on the front, and mid way on the rear. Even with this set up, the car is so much flatter through corners. Id still like a set of CO's as lets face it, our cars are not getting any younger, but the ARB's starved off the hunger, and at some point, when funds become available, il get a set of CO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryl Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 The ARB's with give you the turn in confidence, and the CO's will give you the control over the lumps and bumps of Buckinghams finest. The 421 was always pretty bad, but id imagine its a pig after the weather we have had. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Mcgoo Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) If stability over lumps and bumps is your priority I would think that a refreshed OEM set up will be best, including going back to rubber bushings. Any aftermarket suspension upgrade, polly bushes, arb, chassis bracing etc... Will make things tighter/stiffer this will improve your body roll and handling if pressing on on a good surface. However it will be less forgiving of lumps and bumps. I'm afraid you probably can't have both. Well not without spending an awful about of money. Edited February 25, 2014 by Sam Mcgoo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT4 Zed Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 There is no single fix all solution to get a car to handle like a dream but improvements and compromises in various areas until you achieve your goal. The more adjustability you have the better as any change in one area affects another. Beware of cheap parts as they will fail and you will spend more in the long run. The other thing is that perceived handling is very subjective so take generalised advice with some reservation or make smaller informed changes at a time. With regards to your current issue of body roll you can reduce this by stiffening the ARB on one or both axles, reducing the COG or increasing the damper stiffness. So it may mean you have to get adjustable Eibach ARBs and coilovers. But its not so straight fowards as changing all those will mean you also need to correct camber and toe parts etc and this does not guarantee good handling if they and not set correctly. However before you buy these, I find that the OEM ARB is not too bad for just daily use and fast road use. The first thing to change will be the ARB bushes with Superpro bushes as with time the rubber OEM ARB bushes which are very soft anyway wear down and give the OEM bush too much unwanted movement at the chassis fulcrum points and that reduces its effectiveness = more roll/wallow. Secondly. if your car is pre 2005 GT4 era you can upgrade your front ARB to the GT4 or 2006 onwards as Nissan increased stiffness by 17%. It's way cheaper than a new set of Eibach ARBs you may not need for your purposes. Many people here only require little changes to the suspension to make the car perfect for usage type but end up spending loads and end up with a car that is not better handling because of lack of cohesiveness. The factory dampers are also durable and tuned for our roads so unless you want a trackday car stick with it and lower the car on good quality springs to reduce the COG and minimal compromise on ride quality. Eibach springs or Tein would get your there and you will be able to set the geo within specs without buying more stuff. Secondly not all coilovers are equal and a cheap investment now that fails or rust to bits in x amour of time will set you back or put you at risk. This little changes together with your MPSS, rubber, a good fast road alignment, brakes upgrade will get your smiles back and if you are not happy then make the next change from there eg Eibach ARB, coilovers etc but remember stiffer may also reduce grip, ride quality and compliance. The beauty of this is you can dIY these changes yourself, it's cheap, and you would sell the spring to move forwards. In anycase you are at the right place with Abbey and they can help you. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT4 Zed Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 If stability over lumps and bumps is your priority I would think that a refreshed OEM set up will be best, including going back to rubber bushings. Any aftermarket suspension upgrade, polly bushes, arb, chassis bracing etc... Will make things tighter/stiffer this will improve your body roll and handling if pressing on on a good surface. However it will be less forgiving of lumps and bumps. I'm afraid you probably can't have both. Well not without spending an awful about of money. +10000000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilscorp Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 As GT4 Zed has said, you can go overboard with suspension. I was happy with bc suspension,standard roll bar and falkens, now with eibach roll bars I have lost the feel with the falkens and need something with a much stiffer sidewall as I can't tell the cars limit anymore until it's too late and the tyres just give up, a little bodyroll was handy to tell me slow down! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy78 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 This is really useful information, especially around the ARB's. I was thinking of replacing mine with the Eibachs, but from what you're saying, my 06+ with some improved bushes should be adequate (For my fast road needs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic Turtle Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Thanks for all the great advice guys, massiveley appreciate it. Will reply in more detail later when i get home. Cheers, DT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake4136 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I went for coilovers first because I wanted to lower my car. My aim wasn't soul handling focused and lowering springs were not low enough for what I was looking for. I'm not getting Arb's now because the car is being sold to buy my first house. Hope that helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic Turtle Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Now there's a man with the right priorities; sports car first, warmth and shelter second! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Personally Ive never seen the point of doing ARB's and then coilovers, coilies stiffen the car up a lot and you may find you dont need ARB's afterwards (I certainly didnt) Im also a big fan of the HSD's I have fitted, with most other cars Ive owned Ive found that coilovers make the car less compliant over bumps but Ive really not suffered that with mine, I honestly think they are better than standard in every case. EDIT: And Kudos for keeping the traders off the thread as well, fair play they are here to sell their wares but you know the advice will always be biased Edited February 25, 2014 by docwra 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briggsybriggs1 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Iv found the best handling mod to be a good set off tyres then lower the car ie springs or coil overs if you have more coin to wax. Then get the camber adjustment and a good set up and the ride will improve 100 % then if your not happy with that new arbs and bushes all round . Hope it helps :-) but it all comes down to budget really Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic Turtle Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Sorry for the delay in getting back to y'all, had a busy day. Thanks again for all the advice, there have been some very detailed responses from the community and is the reason why this forum is so awesome. Let's clarify some points. It seems that achieving a more compliant ride over sh*tty tarmac and bumps whilst simultaneously obtaining sharper handling performance and turn-in are mutually exclusive without a substantial investment in the right gear (or buying something with a Lotus badge). Given the choice I'd rather maintain the slightly nervy performance over bumps and crests and focus on reducing body roll slightly, which is leading me to focus on the ARBs rather than coilovers (or lowering springs). I also want to maintain a nice motorway cruise ability and I'm worried that stiffer coilover damping rates might turn longer journeys into a chore? Incidentally, I'm still on the original dampers 9 years / 68k miles later, what kind of life can one reasonably expect from these components (inc london speed bumps and potholes)? I've been slightly surprised by Abbey's quote for the work but I didn't realise just how much time it would take to fit the coilovers and I also didn't realise I'd also need a separate camber kit as well. The Eibach ARBs also seem mighty expensive for a couple of bent metal rods so I'd rather wait until I can source a used or discounted pair (or stiffer 2006+ OEM jobbies) and get them fitted and aligned later. I'm not changing the polybushes back to rubber, end of. I've paid for them and they're not going anywhere! Cheers, DT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briggsybriggs1 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Can you not do the fitting your self ? It will save you loads :-) iv just driven my car for the first good run after fitting elbach lowing springs camber adjustment and toe kits did them my self, but had to pay for the ailment... And the ride is still soft just seems to hold the road and corners better, think they were well worth the money :-) might get some arbs next but will not be the elbach ones as they are expensive like you said :-) it might be a good idea to have a drive in a zed that's got the set up on it that you are thinking off getting :-) Iv seen some white line arbs on here seems a good price think they will be my next investment to my handling http://www.350z-uk.com/index.php?/topic/81690-Whiteline-anti-roll-bars-350Z Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Edited February 26, 2014 by Briggsybriggs1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic Turtle Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Briggsy I'm great with spreadsheets but not with screwdrivers - I can just about change the pads and top up the oil, that's about it Thanks for the heads-up on the Whitelines, £70 cheaper than the Eibachs but still a bit toppy in material terms! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexx Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 There's plenty of in depth guides for fitting these parts yourself. If you can change a set of pads, you should be ok with most of a suspension change (except alignment) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic Turtle Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Thanks Lexx - I don't have any jacks or access to ramps though. I really am embarrassingly useless at anything manual and suffer from acute soft southern wuss syndrome... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Let's clarify some points. It seems that achieving a more compliant ride over sh*tty tarmac and bumps whilst simultaneously obtaining sharper handling performance and turn-in are mutually exclusive without a substantial investment in the right gear (or buying something with a Lotus badge). Id disagree TBH, as Ive said elsewhere the HSD's improved pretty much every aspect on my JDM - turn in was sharper, feedback better, body roll massively reduced but they are still as compliant as standard was. Even on bumpy roads theyve got that little bit more give than most coilies do, so rather than bouncing off into a field the car keeps its composure. IMO coilovers are much better value than ARB's, the adjustment alone speaks for itself .......... and Im also thinking it shouldnt take more than 2 hours to fit them, I certainly paid less than £100 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic Turtle Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 2 hours? That's bloody cheap/quick, but I've put the coilover option on hold for the time being anyway and am going with the ARBs first to see if they do the trick. if not, I'll look at coils in a few month's time as and when I can find some decent ones at a discount. no immediate rush... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryl Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Let us know how you get on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic Turtle Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 Should be able to report back over the weekend - pondering a track visit to test the new gear out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic Turtle Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Time for an update: I've run another 1500 odd miles (including 25 aggressive laps around snetterton) into the tyres and ARBs and am not sure I like the new setup after all. Sometimes the back-end feels very drifty, which was fun at first but on longs drives can become quite tiring - it feels like the rear could step out too willingly around bends, even at modest speeds. The car was amazing around Snetterton but that's on racing tarmac rather than road tarmac, which may have made the difference re grip levels? FWIW I did wipeout around one bend but I was really pressing-on and being very heavy on the throttle too early out of the corner. On the road, the car feels more planted when the tyres are cold (FWIW I've been running the MPSS at 35PSI all around) which seems a bit strange but there you go... All of which are subjective/unscientific observations of course but I've had the car 3 years and driven 18k miles in it. As for solutions, what would members recommend? Remove the Whitelines and put the OEM ARBs back on - I can live with the body roll if I get some compliance and grip back Adjust the geo settings again? Add the eibach adjustable links and compensate accordingly? Add different coils/dampers (might this serve to make the ride stiffer and even more drifty? Not keen on the expense either) Perhaps contact Whiteline and see what they say re optimum settings? I appreciate suspension and geometry is an extremely complex area but I would like to lock this issue down once and for all. Cheers, DT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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