Should Scotland vote to leave the UK ?

[The G Man]

Youre making a massive assumption that the EU will extend membership to an independent Scotland though ............. and thats my main issue with this.

 

Yes, Spain isn't to keen on the idea, they think it'll spark independence calls and maybe more violence from several separatist movements within Spain. Whatever, Scotland will enter The E.U on the current member states terms, not on their own, same for any new E.U country really.

 

Pete

 

That's at least a start, at least we'll have a representative to negotiate fishing rights, undeniable energy wealth and a few other things that is a beginning of a negotiation, at present, we have no representation other than Rupert and Rodders from Hertfordshire

[Dblock]

 

I don't know, we are such pests, subsidy junkies and general alcoholic tramps that infest the streets of London, why would any Unionist want to keep Scotland part of a "United Kingdom"? Beats me

 

Liked and quoted for the truth.

[Dblock]

Youre making a massive assumption that the EU will extend membership to an independent Scotland though ............. and thats my main issue with this.

 

Yes, Spain isn't to keen on the idea, they think it'll spark independence calls and maybe more violence from several separatist movements within Spain. Whatever, Scotland will enter The E.U on the current member states terms, not on their own, same for any new E.U country really.

 

Pete

 

That's at least a start, at least we'll have a representative to negotiate fishing rights, undeniable energy wealth and a few other things that is a beginning of a negotiation, at present, we have no representation other than Rupert and Rodders from Hertfordshire

 

Thats my point. A few posts back I said Scotland was one of the leaders in wind and green power technology. Apparently we don't even have a representative at that big meet in Copenhagen.

[coldel]

Upon reading more on this, I am almost convinced that Scotland will vote yes, but for all the wrong reasons. G Man, some top posts on this thread and to be honest I suspect most of it over most of our heads (including mine) but I have to say that link you posted it a bit of a shocker. I can see the idealism in it, but the way it is written is pretty poor and very biased and unfortunately what most people are relying on to decide how to vote. As with most things, its easier to criticise something real and support something theoretical than vice versa.

[docwra]

G Man, youre doing a great job of arguing about Cameron, but where does it say that Scotland would retain EU membership should it gain independence? You find me that and Ill happily print out this whole page and eat it.

 

Whatever' date=' Scotland will enter The E.U on the current member states terms, not on their own, same for any new E.U country really.[/quote']

 

Yep, its that easy, just ask Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey, Iceland and Albania ................ oh, actually, despite having having their own economic, democratic and legal systems they have been or are still waiting. And youre telling me its a definite that Scotland will get membership when you dont even know what currency youre going to be using?

Edited January 7, 2014 by docwra

[Vik54]

G Man, youre doing a great job of arguing about Cameron, but where does it say that Scotland would retain EU membership should it gain independence? You find me that and Ill happily print out this whole page and eat it.

 

Whatever' date=' Scotland will enter The E.U on the current member states terms, not on their own, same for any new E.U country really.[/quote']

 

Yep, its that easy, just ask Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey, Iceland and Albania ................ oh, actually, despite having having their own economic, democratic and legal systems they have been or are still waiting. And youre telling me its a definite that Scotland will get membership when you dont even know what currency youre going to be using?

 

You seem to be intentionally misreading the emphasis within this sentence for the sake of an argument... I read that sentence as "No matter what all the rhetoric is about - If Scotland becomes independent we will have to enter the EU as an individual and go through the same processes all have to"

[docwra]

Im not, promise - he seems quite vocal about the fact that England/whats left of the UK could leave EU subject to a referendum (which is totally correct) but doesnt seem to address the issue that theres no guarantee that Scotland would remain a member come independence day:

 

Also as a committed European' date=' being in an Independent Scotland is the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU.[/quote']

 

I personally think youve more chance of the UK staying in the EU than Scotland being accepted immediately as a new member state ............ but it doesnt change the fact that G Man hasnt actually answered the question of how he KNOWS that Scotland will be invited to join the EU, like I KNOW that if the referendum isnt successful the UK will remain a member.

 

Hes not saying "If Scotland becomes independent we will have to enter the EU and go through the same processes all have to" like you did, hes saying "Scotland will enter The E.U on the current member states terms" .......... one of those is a definite statement, the other isnt

[M13KYF]

poll doesnt really answer the title of the thread

 

If it asked whether Scotland could vote to leave the UK, then yes of course they should have the vote

 

so I havent voted on the poll for that reason

[Vik54]

well am pretty confident that my reading of that sentence is what he meant - he doesn't make sweeping comments unless he KNOWS

Im not, promise - he seems quite vocal about the fact that England/whats left of the UK could leave EU subject to a referendum (which is totally correct) but doesnt seem to address the issue that theres no guarantee that Scotland would remain a member come independence day:

 

Also as a committed European' date=' being in an Independent Scotland is the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU.[/quote']

 

I personally think youve more chance of the UK staying in the EU than Scotland being accepted immediately as a new member state ............ but it doesnt change the fact that G Man hasnt actually answered the question of how he KNOWS that Scotland will be invited to join the EU, like I KNOW that if the referendum isnt successful the UK will remain a member.

 

Hes not saying "If Scotland becomes independent we will have to enter the EU and go through the same processes all have to" like you did, hes saying "Scotland will HAVE TO enter The E.U on the current member states terms" .......... one of those is a definite statement, the other isnt

 

 

^^ That is how I read it You are not 'quoting' the whole sentence in context - "Whatever.."

 

Geo - you have left that wide open punctuation!!!

Edited January 7, 2014 by Vik54

[docwra]

Sorry Vik, but that is the whole sentence as typed, and if "Independent Scotland is the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU" then it assumes membership will be granted, which for me is one of the biggest unanswered questions here.

 

Im sure G Man is the font of all knowledge and can produce light just by dropping his trousers but as per my post on the last page, a lot of the reasons for independence hang on assumptions that in some cases havent even been addressed by Salmond, which is more than a little worrying, no?

[ddcboyle]

In all honesty, Scottish independence could be the best thing to ever happen to Scotland. It's the not knowing what disadvantage there will be that make me and others vote no.

 

Salmon Fish makes out that it is all going to be perfect, but it won't be. I'd be curious to see what downfalls there would be. i.e. Water, university. He says tax won't rise, but how long will that be confirmed?

 

Edit: If it means we stay out the EU, that could be a good thing. I for one am voting YES to leaving the EU. Absolutely pointless us being there. We have no say in deportation or immigration policies (I know we don't have as much % compared to other countries, but we are more of a target than others)

Edited January 7, 2014 by ddcboyle

[JetSet]

G Man, youre doing a great job of arguing about Cameron, but where does it say that Scotland would retain EU membership should it gain independence? You find me that and Ill happily print out this whole page and eat it.

 

Whatever' date=' Scotland will enter The E.U on the current member states terms, not on their own, same for any new E.U country really.[/quote']

 

Yep, its that easy, just ask Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey, Iceland and Albania ................ oh, actually, despite having having their own economic, democratic and legal systems they have been or are still waiting. And youre telling me its a definite that Scotland will get membership when you dont even know what currency youre going to be using?

 

You seem to be intentionally misreading the emphasis within this sentence for the sake of an argument... I read that sentence as "No matter what all the rhetoric is about - If Scotland becomes independent we will have to enter the EU as an individual and go through the same processes all have to"

 

If you google Scotland and The E.U you will get several different interpretations of what will happen from legal experts, they may be able to remain in The E.U and negotiate or they have to start from scratch. This is a unique situation and we can at the moment only guess at the outcome. Things may become clearer closer to the referendum which in reality they need to for people to know the exact situation...as a neutral it's all too vague to me at the moment.

 

Pete

[The G Man]

Sorry Vik, but that is the whole sentence as typed, and if "Independent Scotland is the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU" then it assumes membership will be granted, which for me is one of the biggest unanswered questions here.

 

Im sure G Man is the font of all knowledge and can produce light just by dropping his trousers but as per my post on the last page, a lot of the reasons for independence hang on assumptions that in some cases havent even been addressed by Salmond, which is more than a little worrying, no?

 

No you are taking it out of context, it is the only way of ensuring that Scotland remains a member of the EU, by whatever negotiation is needed. The UK government, or rather the political party that is in charge at the moment, is committed to a referendum to leave, this is something that Scotland does not want, so the only way of ENSURING we stay in is independence. I thought that was an obvious point, happy to clarify

[The G Man]

In all honesty, Scottish independence could be the best thing to ever happen to Scotland. It's the not knowing what disadvantage there will be that make me and others vote no.

 

Salmon Fish makes out that it is all going to be perfect, but it won't be. I'd be curious to see what downfalls there would be. i.e. Water, university. He says tax won't rise, but how long will that be confirmed?

 

Edit: If it means we stay out the EU, that could be a good thing. I for one am voting YES to leaving the EU. Absolutely pointless us being there. We have no say in deportation or immigration policies (I know we don't have as much % compared to other countries, but we are more of a target than others)

 

It's about self determination, not Alex Salmond or the SNP, why is that so difficult to understand. How many jobs would go in the UK if it were to leave the EU?, 100'S of thousands, from all parts

 

I'm continually astounded by the lack of understanding on the self determination front, but do understand that it is anyone's right to vote no.

 

On anouther point earlier on, someone made the assertion as to what would Scotland do with no DVLA etc and other big UK institutions that are not based in Scotland, well what will the rest of the UK do if we just keep all the nuclear subs? That's a non starter of an idea, hopefully you get that.

 

Also, The Common Weil is only a basis to form some sort of constitution, not the be all and end all, show me where the UK's constitution is or can be accessed, no you can't because there isn't one, Westminster deems it unnecessary, and so can railroad things through parliament that leaves you, me and the man next door with no recourse.

 

What is the alternative to self determination for Scotland? Osborne gave his ideas yesterday, I'm sorry but the "No" campaign have put no vision of an alternative to the "Yes" campaign other than the status quo, seriously, is that the best thing for Scotland

[docwra]

Sorry Vik, but that is the whole sentence as typed, and if "Independent Scotland is the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU" then it assumes membership will be granted, which for me is one of the biggest unanswered questions here.

 

Im sure G Man is the font of all knowledge and can produce light just by dropping his trousers but as per my post on the last page, a lot of the reasons for independence hang on assumptions that in some cases havent even been addressed by Salmond, which is more than a little worrying, no?

 

No you are taking it out of context, it is the only way of ensuring that Scotland remains a member of the EU, by whatever negotiation is needed. The UK government, or rather the political party that is in charge at the moment, is committed to a referendum to leave, this is something that Scotland does not want, so the only way of ENSURING we stay in is independence. I thought that was an obvious point, happy to clarify

 

So how do you know Scotland will be extended the offer of membership when Iceland and Turkey havent? This is the question Im asking that seems to have been avoided for the last two pages, this is what I want to know.

 

I know, 100%, cast iron, first article, etc, that if the UK rejects the referendum to leave the EU we will remain members. How do you know that an independent Scotland will become an EU member to the point that "its the only way of ENSURING" you stay in?

Edited January 7, 2014 by docwra

[Jetpilot]

After watching the debacle with Donald Trumps golf course, I think Scotland would last about 6 seconds with Alex Salmond in charge!

 

Personal views, i think its wrong the way it is now that Scotland get to decide how they do certain things with they way its run contrary to central government so stand on your own two feet and see how you get on and that is no way directed individually at any Scot, just the Scottish Government.

 

Knowing how independent some Scots are i would imagine it will be a close run thing as they wont be able to resist voting yes to "show" England they can succeed

 

On balance and to add, i would trust him as much as any UK politician to be fair, Blair and his wmd etc was just a joke.

 

Politicians these days seem only interested in being in "power" and beating the opposition, i dont think any of them actually have any idea how to improve our economy or make the country better, sheer egotism at its finest.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Jetpilot

[The G Man]

Sorry Vik, but that is the whole sentence as typed, and if "Independent Scotland is the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU" then it assumes membership will be granted, which for me is one of the biggest unanswered questions here.

 

Im sure G Man is the font of all knowledge and can produce light just by dropping his trousers but as per my post on the last page, a lot of the reasons for independence hang on assumptions that in some cases havent even been addressed by Salmond, which is more than a little worrying, no?

 

No you are taking it out of context, it is the only way of ensuring that Scotland remains a member of the EU, by whatever negotiation is needed. The UK government, or rather the political party that is in charge at the moment, is committed to a referendum to leave, this is something that Scotland does not want, so the only way of ENSURING we stay in is independence. I thought that was an obvious point, happy to clarify

 

So how do you know Scotland will be extended the offer of membership when Iceland and Turkey havent? This is the question Im asking that seems to have been avoided for the last two pages, this is what I want to know.

 

I know, 100%, cast iron, first article, etc, that if the UK rejects the referendum to leave the EU we will remain members. How do you know that an independent Scotland will become an EU member to the point that "its the only way of ENSURING" you stay in?

 

In short, Turkey and Iceland are not part of member states at the moment Scotland is, and, for various financial and political reasons, Turkey will find it harder and harder. Iceland not so.

 

On your second point, it's obvious.

 

To Jetpilot

 

After watching several dozen debacles, from new IT systems at the MOD, education changes every other week, Clegg to the bus lane on a motorway debacle, Donald Trump is the least of anyone's worries

[Jetpilot]

Sorry Vik, but that is the whole sentence as typed, and if "Independent Scotland is the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU" then it assumes membership will be granted, which for me is one of the biggest unanswered questions here.

 

Im sure G Man is the font of all knowledge and can produce light just by dropping his trousers but as per my post on the last page, a lot of the reasons for independence hang on assumptions that in some cases havent even been addressed by Salmond, which is more than a little worrying, no?

 

No you are taking it out of context, it is the only way of ensuring that Scotland remains a member of the EU, by whatever negotiation is needed. The UK government, or rather the political party that is in charge at the moment, is committed to a referendum to leave, this is something that Scotland does not want, so the only way of ENSURING we stay in is independence. I thought that was an obvious point, happy to clarify

 

So how do you know Scotland will be extended the offer of membership when Iceland and Turkey havent? This is the question Im asking that seems to have been avoided for the last two pages, this is what I want to know.

 

I know, 100%, cast iron, first article, etc, that if the UK rejects the referendum to leave the EU we will remain members. How do you know that an independent Scotland will become an EU member to the point that "its the only way of ENSURING" you stay in?

 

In short, Turkey and Iceland are not part of member states at the moment Scotland is, and, for various financial and political reasons, Turkey will find it harder and harder. Iceland not so.

 

On your second point, it's obvious.

 

To Jetpilot

 

After watching several dozen debacles, from new IT systems at the MOD, education changes every other week, Clegg to the bus lane on a motorway debacle, Donald Trump is the least of anyone's worries

 

I was amending my post in interest of balance whilst this came up

[docwra]

G Man, you might well be the wisest man on this board but you are pretty clearly avoiding admitting that you dont know that Scotland would be granted EU membership, as no-one actually does. Scotland may well be part of a member state but they dont have any economic, legal or democratic systems in place, all of which are specifically mentioned in the Copenhagen Criteria.

 

When it would appear that remaining in the EU is one of your main reasons for supporting independence, yet you dont actually know this will happen, for me that underlines exactly what I said in my first post:

 

Everything Ive seen from Salmond has been assumption (oil and gas income' date=' armed forces, retaining Sterling) rather than set in stone definites, and as such I think a fair proportion of those with the choice are being mislead somewhat. [/quote']

 

Good luck, you certainly seem more aware than most Ive spoken to on this subject, but Id prefer to be voting on the basis of an actual researched and feasible manifesto than the wishlist of a fat man named after a fish.

[coldel]

For me it's about people voting Yes for all the wrong reasons. It just seems that there are lots of questions put to the people who will be taking Scotland into independence that they simply wont address. You can talk your way around it in a lead up to a vote, but come match time, you cant simply skip around it, do you trust the people in charge to come up with the practical responses?

 

The Common Weal, I appreciate its a vision and it sounds 'nice' but you asked people to read it and I had a quick look but found it to be two things, impractical and contrary to human nature (unfortunately humans are greedy) in addition to it again being written as a very biased propaganda piece. For instance the first principle is listed as:

 

A Common Weal Approach

Assume that mutual and shared working towards mutual and shared goals will produce the best society and the best economy

The London Orthodoxy Approach

Assume that competition and conflict will allow the strongest to rise and that they alone should shape society and the economy

 

Which could easily be written as:

 

A Common Weal Approach

Mutual and shared goals limit innovation and aspiration, no one should sees any chance of becoming anything greater than what is dictated to them by the ruling party who deem all you succeed in is given to those who do not

The London Orthodoxy Approach

Competition inspires people to greater things, to innovate to succeed, to drive their competitors to work harder to counter their success and drive international investment through the providence of a healthy competitive environment

I appreciate there are hardly any objective texts on political approaches, but this is pretty far from being a plausible one, well from my laymans view it is, be good to see an economists view on it.

Edited January 7, 2014 by coldel

[Jetpilot]

Perhaps a strange question but if this gets say a 50.5% yes vote does that mean it will happen or does there have to be an overall majority and if the vote is yes, how long will it take for Scotland to be independent. will be instant?

[The G Man]

docwra

 

Thanks, but the last time I looked, we had our own legal system, we are more independent financially, as far as the Barnet formula can go and I do know that Scotland is a shoe in for membership of the EU, just as it's a racing certainty that the World Cup won't be coming back to Britain

[The G Man]

Perhaps a strange question but if this gets say a 50.5% yes vote does that mean it will happen or does there have to be an overall majority and if the vote is yes, how long will it take for Scotland to be independent. will be instant?

 

Yes it will happen but not instantly, 4 years or so of negotiations with Westminster, no stitch ups like when devolution was first put forward for Scotland with a hackneyed 65% must vote in favour option that a Labour government once set (Callaghan)

[The G Man]

After watching the debacle with Donald Trumps golf course, I think Scotland would last about 6 seconds with Alex Salmond in charge!

 

Personal views, i think its wrong the way it is now that Scotland get to decide how they do certain things with they way its run contrary to central government so stand on your own two feet and see how you get on and that is no way directed individually at any Scot, just the Scottish Government.

 

Knowing how independent some Scots are i would imagine it will be a close run thing as they wont be able to resist voting yes to "show" England they can succeed

 

On balance and to add, i would trust him as much as any UK politician to be fair, Blair and his wmd etc was just a joke.

 

Politicians these days seem only interested in being in "power" and beating the opposition, i dont think any of them actually have any idea how to improve our economy or make the country better, sheer egotism at its finest.

 

Yes mate, Trump only threatened golf balls, not WMD

[coldel]

Perhaps a strange question but if this gets say a 50.5% yes vote does that mean it will happen or does there have to be an overall majority and if the vote is yes, how long will it take for Scotland to be independent. will be instant?

 

..."instantly" - I suddenly had visions of the people in the north of England waking up the day after the vote to see a huge wall being slung up on the horizon