Should Scotland vote to leave the UK ?

[Dblock]

How can you not be bothered?

[coldel]

Disenfranchised?

[Neilp]

I understand both sides of the argument and there has been fair comment on here from people I respect a lot. Namely G Man. George is one of the people I have endless respect for. He has more life experience than I will ever have. It's useful for us to listen to people like him.

 

My opinions do vary slightly but I respect his view point and try to understand it.

 

For me there still too many questions unanswered. Id love to be independent and the powers brought back to scottish land. For me, I look at Southern Ireland and worry that will be us one day.

 

What will we do for an army? Who will be our defence? Who stops the drugs coming into the country? Who delivers our post? Who polices our streets? Will the current businesses stay here or move projects south? Will my company stay running in Scotland as it is based in England. And the list goes on....

 

I'd love to be free from English rule, believe me!

 

Right now I just see too much uncertainty and we could end up like Southern Ireland with high taxes, expensive living costs and poor industry.

[Neilp]

How can you not be bothered?

 

As long as they keep a go-kart track Chris will be happy.

[Neilp]

I'm considering the Kevin bridges approach. He's in the "f*ck it, it'll be a laugh" camp

[WhackyWill]

Just a quick question, Would Scotland be better off with a new leader other than Alex Salmon from what I have

 

read on here he's not well liked, so maybe Gordon Brown then...

[Dblock]

I like Alex salmond and so do many many other Scots.

[Flex]

Only Scottish guy who couldn't give a flying ,,,,,,

 

I will not vote or moan if it goes tits up

 

Even if you're taxes go sky high?

[The G Man]

Just to be absolutely clear on this, I don't care what the nationality of anyone running an Independent Scotland is, English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, just not American ( ), for me and those with a deeper understanding, the debate is not about being independent from the English, more independent from Westminster and all that goes with a crumbling political system that contains very little democracy.

 

Definately the last word, or words,....Death to the French

[zroar]

Just a note on the references to the Republic of Ireland, yes they are going through severely bad times. I can't claim to know the details (I'm in Northern Ireland) however their issues are solely and completely down to the spectacular collapse of a construction industry caught up in an absurd bubble, itself inflated exponentially by a recklessly speculative banking industry - the biggest offender being the Anglo Irish bank.

 

That said, they are the first of the rescued EU nations to technically exit their bailout and do have a strong presence from some very large, modern businesses attracted by a very low corporate tax rate (in Northern Ireland we have been begging Westminster for years to align our own corporate tax with the South).

 

Ireland will recover and are actually a decent model to aspire toward - notwithstanding the 2008 Global Financial Crisis and property market collapse.

 

Yes the normal working people have had massive additional taxes in recent years to sort out the mess (I know many personally) and the perennial emigration problem has gotten worse but know this, jobseekers allowance for over 26 year old in the Republic of Ireland is €188 per week. Families have been feeling the squeeze but last summer I drove from Belfast to the south coast (averaged 36mpg by the way!) and there wasn't a sniff of recession about the place.

Edited January 6, 2014 by zroar

[JetSet]

 

 

If we did get independence then you would need to apply for a Scottish Passport. How cool is that!

 

 

 

Only those who want to. Salmond has made it clear that Scottish Nationality won't be forced upon those that don't want it. It'll be along the lines of Northern Ireland were people can chose between Irish or British nationality. For people living outside of Scotland, the same rules will apply, you will have to prove you were either born in Scotland or at least one of your parents were....possible that it might go back as far as grandparents.

 

 

Pete

[hensh65]

Neilp, couldn't be more correct

 

If taxes go up and there was one vote in it then I might feel like a **** but somehow I doubt it. A lot of people grumble about things and don't vote, I do neither.

[sipar69]

I wonder if we saw off Scotland, you will float further off into the North Sea and have even worse weather!?

 

 

[docwra]

Also as a committed European, being in an Independent Scotland is the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU. We're not having a referendum, or a promised one on that here, only Westminster Conservatism and UKIP are striving for that. That alone takes us to a whole new level of debate.

 

Youre making a massive assumption that the EU will extend membership to an independent Scotland though ............. and thats my main issue with this. Everything Ive seen from Salmond has been assumption (oil and gas income, armed forces, retaining Sterling) rather than set in stone definites, and as such I think a fair proportion of those with the choice are being mislead somewhat.

[Ekona]

Exactly. Guesswork and probablies are not a good reason to vote for such a massive change.

[ianphampton]

I'm not Scottish - I'm English.

 

i) If Scotland leaves, this means all the Scottish MPs leave, too - and as they're either SNP or Labour, this means the Tories will stay in power in Westminster pretty well for ever.

ii) I'd be quite happy for Scotland to leave, provided they don't expect the rest of England to pay anything. I mean - ANYTHING. They're welcome to keep any and all revenues from the North Sea, and all taxes raised in Scotland (obviously) but any monies raised south of the border STAY south of the border

iii) In the same way - I'm happy for the Scots to have free education, free prescriptions - hey, they can have whatever they like - just not on my taxes, thank you very much. I have every anticipation that English Tax rates will drop about 5% when we're not subsidising Scotland any more

 

In summary - beware of what you wish for - you may well get it - but then you've got to pay for it all. Welcome to the big world.

[The G Man]

Also as a committed European, being in an Independent Scotland is the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU. We're not having a referendum, or a promised one on that here, only Westminster Conservatism and UKIP are striving for that. That alone takes us to a whole new level of debate.

 

Youre making a massive assumption that the EU will extend membership to an independent Scotland though ............. and thats my main issue with this. Everything Ive seen from Salmond has been assumption (oil and gas income, armed forces, retaining Sterling) rather than set in stone definites, and as such I think a fair proportion of those with the choice are being mislead somewhat.

 

No I'm stating a fact, conservative England will hold a referendum into leaving the EU in 2017, Cameron is committed to this, this will be supported by UKIP, BNP and disgruntled labour voters (the Liberal party will not exist by then). You do not understand the Act of Union, it was only a union of Parliaments that, if dissolved, leave both England and Scotland as autonomous Countries, not regions as is the supposition of UK Unionist parties that base Scotland, seeking to be part of the EU.

 

There is more to this than meets the eye, this is where when discussing Catalans bid for independence the EU says if it happens then, as a REGION, automatic entry is not on the cards, Scotland is in a different position, that's fact.

[The G Man]

Exactly. Guesswork and probablies are not a good reason to vote for such a massive change.

 

See above

[The G Man]

I'm not Scottish - I'm English.

 

i) If Scotland leaves, this means all the Scottish MPs leave, too - and as they're either SNP or Labour, this means the Tories will stay in power in Westminster pretty well for ever.

ii) I'd be quite happy for Scotland to leave, provided they don't expect the rest of England to pay anything. I mean - ANYTHING. They're welcome to keep any and all revenues from the North Sea, and all taxes raised in Scotland (obviously) but any monies raised south of the border STAY south of the border

iii) In the same way - I'm happy for the Scots to have free education, free prescriptions - hey, they can have whatever they like - just not on my taxes, thank you very much. I have every anticipation that English Tax rates will drop about 5% when we're not subsidising Scotland any more

 

In summary - beware of what you wish for - you may well get it - but then you've got to pay for it all. Welcome to the big world.

 

Sheer fantasy and not very constructive, IMO, shows scant understanding of UK politics and none on Scottish politics, with no economic intellect whatsoever.

 

I'm sorry to see as well that you are the only taxpayer in the UK, keep up the good work

[The G Man]

I wonder if we saw off Scotland, you will float further off into the North Sea and have even worse weather!?

 

Impossible, we have a monopoly on that, we get it 13 months out of 12

[ATTAK Z]

Impossible, we have a monopoly on that, we get it 13 months out of 12

 

Is that why the Romans never got beyond Hadrian's Wall ? ... cos the only had ten months prior to Julius Caesar IIRC and 13 blew their mind?

[Ekona]

Cameron has committed to no such referendum. It might well be in the Tory manifesto, but don't kid yourself that they wouldn't drop it if it suited them politically.

 

If Scotland leave the UK, then they become independent. The UK will still exist. The UK is a member of the EU: England, Wales and NI are not. The UK will remain part of the EU. Scotland may or may not have to apply for membership. The Act of Union 1800 is not affected by the withdrawal of Scotland from the 1707 one, just like when the ROI act was repealed in 1962.

[LRF4N]

A lot of interesting points in this thread. But the most important point I have a disagree with.... Neil- I can't agree that we can learn a lot from George. I've seen what he does with a bag if tomatoes

 

I've voted against an independent Scotland as I think there are far too many uncertainties and the politicians aren't clearing them up

 

I think even if the oil resources were infinite there is no certainty how much revenue would stay in Scotland

[JetSet]

 

Youre making a massive assumption that the EU will extend membership to an independent Scotland though ............. and thats my main issue with this.

 

Yes, Spain isn't to keen on the idea, they think it'll spark independence calls and maybe more violence from several separatist movements within Spain. Whatever, Scotland will enter The E.U on the current member states terms, not on their own, same for any new E.U country really.

 

Pete

[The G Man]

Cameron has committed to no such referendum. It might well be in the Tory manifesto, but don't kid yourself that they wouldn't drop it if it suited them politically.

 

If Scotland leave the UK, then they become independent. The UK will still exist. The UK is a member of the EU: England, Wales and NI are not. The UK will remain part of the EU. Scotland may or may not have to apply for membership. The Act of Union 1800 is not affected by the withdrawal of Scotland from the 1707 one, just like when the ROI act was repealed in 1962.

 

You're wrong on both counts, The UK only exists if Scotland stay in the UNITED KINGDOMS of Scotland and England, both acts of Union are an adjoinment of parliaments not Kingdoms, or States. Great Britain will remain, as this is a geographic reference, hence Great Britain (the main bit that includes Wales) and Northern Ireland. Cameron, will succumb to the pressure his party and the rest of the right of centre vote who will demand.it. He may not be around in 2017, but he did commit to it, all he needs is a majority in Westminster, which he'll get if and when Scotland leave The Union.

You're 100% correct in saying he may change his mind, because mainly, he has no morals but predominately because he's a politician. His party won't when faced with the threat of UKIP, Labour and the great disenfranchised vote that is the Lib Dem party ( c'mon the students).

 

In the shires, he's toast if he doesn't carry it through, not that he'll mind, he'll still go on enjoying rank and privilege through the system that is rotten and one I want to distance my country from.

 

I don't know, we are such pests, subsidy junkies and general alcoholic tramps that infest the streets of London, why would any Unionist want to keep Scotland part of a "United Kingdom"? Beats me