Should Scotland vote to leave the UK ?

[Vik54]

Just thought I would put my opinion in..... lol. I am against Scotland going independent as there are far too many uncertainties such as the currency, what passport would we fall under, how do they plan on keeping Scotland and please dont say tourism and Oil will see us through........ it bloody well wont.

 

However what I do find interesting is people are saying No to independence due to it being the SNP party but also its leaders. This is wrong as you are voting for Scotland breaking free..... think of the long term and not the short. YES the man and the other thing that calls itself a woman are imo are not suited to run a country.but this can all be changed once Scotland is independent i.e. Labour running it etc etc. Who knows....

 

What scares me, which I think neil picked up on is the fact that they are giving 16 year olds the vote!!!! What experience do they have in life.......... and how can they make a rational and educated decision. All the SNP has to do is feed them alot of propaganda about more jobs.... uni / college placements etc etc and show braveheart the night before the vote!

 

HELP!!

we can show trainspotting on every channel just to bring back reality

That was what Kevin Bridges said!! - jay I would've 'liked' your comments above but have reached my quota for the day

[Jay]

Nae worries las. If however Scotland does go independent, I firmly believe that they should be teaching Latin and Gaelic in schools and also making it mandatory that they learn their country's true history. Far too many people think that because they have seen Rob Roy and Braveheart that they know Scotland's history. LOL.

[Neilp]

I do think Scotland can survive but it's not my job to research facts and figures on it. The government should be doing this and then many more people will become Pro-independence.

 

I think Scotland as a whole could give back to scottish society a lot more than what we can do right now. People say Scotland has the highest deprivation rates but in fact this is down to cuts and taxes we are accruing from London. England is priority in London. Some of the areas around parliament have the lowest council tax rates in the uk, which I think is a complete joke.

 

I'm general Scotland are a good nation with good people. I think if given the chance scottish people will grasp with both hands and work together to make things work. I don't think tax will be astronomical, I think we have enough industry to sustain us. I think that people don't know enough about the oil industry to make comments on how much oil Scotland has- fortunately my brother is a solicitor for trading gas and oil and I'm pretty sure I know a fair amount of inside knowledge on the matter.

 

I think if Scotland gets independence it will do fine. Am I all for it? Not entirely.

[Ekona]

What scares me, which I think neil picked up on is the fact that they are giving 16 year olds the vote!!!! What experience do they have in life.......... and how can they make a rational and educated decision. All the SNP has to do is feed them alot of propaganda about more jobs.... uni / college placements etc etc and show braveheart the night before the vote!

 

HELP!!

You're assuming that the general adult populace is making an informed decision, and not just going on soundbites. I'd put more faith in kids to do a bit of research than I would adults who generally just seem to vote for the person they like best on the telly.

 

Applies as much to politics everywhere in the world as to this particular debate.

[coldel]

What scares me, which I think neil picked up on is the fact that they are giving 16 year olds the vote!!!!

 

What scares me more is that I know just as many 26, 36 and 46+ year olds as 16 year olds who vote based on what they read in tabloids. Unfortunately it is the way of the world that we have a few groups of voters that are too young, too patriotic, too easily influenced by trash media and simply too stubborn to listen to other ideas. But that's democracy for you.

[Vik54]

I do think Scotland can survive but it's not my job to research facts and figures on it. The government should be doing this and then many more people will become Pro-independence.

 

I think Scotland as a whole could give back to scottish society a lot more than what we can do right now. People say Scotland has the highest deprivation rates but in fact this is down to cuts and taxes we are accruing from London. England is priority in London. Some of the areas around parliament have the lowest council tax rates in the uk, which I think is a complete joke.

 

I'm general Scotland are a good nation with good people. I think if given the chance scottish people will grasp with both hands and work together to make things work. I don't think tax will be astronomical, I think we have enough industry to sustain us. I think that people don't know enough about the oil industry to make comments on how much oil Scotland has- fortunately my brother is a solicitor for trading gas and oil and I'm pretty sure I know a fair amount of inside knowledge on the matter.

 

I think if Scotland gets independence it will do fine. Am I all for it? Not entirely.

 

Ooooh darling - nooo - you would trust a Government (or any political party) to present figures impartially?

Would also be particularly wary of claiming we have seen increased poverty / deprivation as a direct result of Westminster - certainly in terms of Social Policy this is a direct result of SNP refusing to ring fence funding and simply handing it to Local Authorities under general department purse - which is meant to ensure it goes where the locality need is highest - what it means in practice though is that the most prominent (loudest) Heads of Service get the biggest purse and divide it amongst their best buddies

[spursmaddave]

Politics & Religion huh...

 

 

Sent from the golf club...

[coldel]

I do think Scotland can survive but it's not my job to research facts and figures on it. The government should be doing this and then many more people will become Pro-independence.

 

I think Scotland as a whole could give back to scottish society a lot more than what we can do right now. People say Scotland has the highest deprivation rates but in fact this is down to cuts and taxes we are accruing from London. England is priority in London. Some of the areas around parliament have the lowest council tax rates in the uk, which I think is a complete joke.

 

I'm general Scotland are a good nation with good people. I think if given the chance scottish people will grasp with both hands and work together to make things work. I don't think tax will be astronomical, I think we have enough industry to sustain us. I think that people don't know enough about the oil industry to make comments on how much oil Scotland has- fortunately my brother is a solicitor for trading gas and oil and I'm pretty sure I know a fair amount of inside knowledge on the matter.

 

I think if Scotland gets independence it will do fine. Am I all for it? Not entirely.

 

Ooooh darling - nooo - you would trust a Government (or any political party) to present figures impartially?

Would also be particularly wary of claiming we have seen increased poverty / deprivation as a direct result of Westminster - certainly in terms of Social Policy this is a direct result of SNP refusing to ring fence funding and simply handing it to Local Authorities under general department purse - which is meant to ensure it goes where the locality need is highest - what it means in practice though is that the most prominent (loudest) Heads of Service get the biggest purse and divide it amongst their best buddies

 

Has no one watched 'The thick of it'

[glrnet]

"In 1974 52% of Scottish voters said YES to a Scottish Government. The Labour Party undemocratically said NO and NO to 43 out of 19 Scottish MP's were outraged." How can you say no to 43 out of 19 anythings......................That whole sentence just doesn't make sense.

How do you get 43 out of 19 any way?

That was my point Craig, if "organisations" are going to publish this sort of thing and they don't check it before they put it out there how can anybody be expected to believe ant of what what they say. Yes they may have a point but it doesn't fill you with confidence does it? The worrying part is how many actually will believe everything they read on the internet. As Dan said, there are too many sound bites and often not enough facts.

 

[Flex]

"In 1974 52% of Scottish voters said YES to a Scottish Government. The Labour Party undemocratically said NO and NO to 43 out of 19 Scottish MP's were outraged." How can you say no to 43 out of 19 anythings......................That whole sentence just doesn't make sense.

How do you get 43 out of 19 any way?

That was my point Craig, if "organisations" are going to publish this sort of thing and they don't check it before they put it out there how can anybody be expected to believe ant of what what they say. Yes they may have a point but it doesn't fill you with confidence does it? The worrying part is how many actually will believe everything they read on the internet. As Dan said, there are too many sound bites and often not enough facts.

 

 

 

I agree and what do they say about a little knowledge, too many people either can't be bothered to do their own research or assume that whatever is placed in front of them is true, as you've said.

 

Scary world really.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Flex

[Ekona]

That website is truly horrendous, and full of the worst kind of subversive text. I'll pick on just one 'fact' that caught my eye:

 

250,000 tonnes of low radioactive London Olympic waste was dumped in Falkirk!

 

Well, no actually. Their own quoted source is the Daily Mail from 2008(!) that says that a report states that there may be some contaminated land around the site of the 2012 village. Nowhere do they actually say that the land was definitely dumped in Falkirk, or even if it was dumped at all. It's a cheap headline that they cannot prove either way, and that's disturbing.

 

 

The whole site is sham figures and guesswork ripped from old sources. I'm not saying that the No campaign website is any better (I've not looked truth be told), but that's truly awful.

[Neilp]

I do think Scotland can survive but it's not my job to research facts and figures on it. The government should be doing this and then many more people will become Pro-independence.

 

I think Scotland as a whole could give back to scottish society a lot more than what we can do right now. People say Scotland has the highest deprivation rates but in fact this is down to cuts and taxes we are accruing from London. England is priority in London. Some of the areas around parliament have the lowest council tax rates in the uk, which I think is a complete joke.

 

I'm general Scotland are a good nation with good people. I think if given the chance scottish people will grasp with both hands and work together to make things work. I don't think tax will be astronomical, I think we have enough industry to sustain us. I think that people don't know enough about the oil industry to make comments on how much oil Scotland has- fortunately my brother is a solicitor for trading gas and oil and I'm pretty sure I know a fair amount of inside knowledge on the matter.

 

I think if Scotland gets independence it will do fine. Am I all for it? Not entirely.

 

Ooooh darling - nooo - you would trust a Government (or any political party) to present figures impartially?

Would also be particularly wary of claiming we have seen increased poverty / deprivation as a direct result of Westminster - certainly in terms of Social Policy this is a direct result of SNP refusing to ring fence funding and simply handing it to Local Authorities under general department purse - which is meant to ensure it goes where the locality need is highest - what it means in practice though is that the most prominent (loudest) Heads of Service get the biggest purse and divide it amongst their best buddies

 

I don't trust them at all but I think if the real figures are put down on paper and researcher correctly that it may show something that we don't see at the moment.

[coldel]

I had a quick read as well, staggered that this is being peddled in a political arena. Even though all political parties bend the truth its a lot more difficult to get to the numbers behind it, this is just stuff that is made up, it is absurd in the extreme. But sad that some peoples research will involve reading this and taking it as read.

[Vik54]

I had a quick read as well, staggered that this is being peddled in a political arena. Even though all political parties bend the truth its a lot more difficult to get to the numbers behind it, this is just stuff that is made up, it is absurd in the extreme. But sad that some peoples research will involve reading this and taking it as read.

 

Propaganda like this everywhere up here - and as it is attention grabbing it is this sort of material that folk without the capacity for critical thought grasp onto and start parroting ad lib

[Gball1973]

So far, some interesting comments have been made.

 

I would love to see an independent Scotland, but will most likely vote No.

 

Some of the things that is bugging me about the upcoming referendum:

• Salmond is allowing 16 yr olds to vote- Why? half of them don't know their ars£$ from their elbows, and, as stated above most will base their vote on propaganda in the tabloids. If this was a regular general/local election would/will they still be allowed to vote? If not, why are they being allowed this time?
  
• 
  
• wee Eck is also (supposedly) allowing celebrities like Sean Connery, Brian Cox and Alan Cumming to vote, none of whom actually live here anymore (other than for holidays), but is not allowing the "average joe" Scot living in other parts of the UK the same rights.
  
• 
  
• The SNP seem to quote oil and gas revenues as the answer for most, if not all, independence finance issues. Surely they are joking? There is so many differing opinions as to how long the reserves in the north sea will last, have they accounted for the possibility that it may be gone within 50 years?
  
• 
  
• As a country with a dedicated green policy, why are the SNP and the Yes campaign so dependant on the oil and gas industry?
  
• 
  
• How would the newly independent Scotland actually pay for setting up the new infrastructure, whilst also paying the UK it's share of the national debt and buying military equipment etc.. without raising tax - either corporation or income?
  

One of the comments earlier in this thread reminded me of a picture the Yes campaign put online showing a picture of David Cameron with the quote "A no vote for Independence is a vote yes for him". How so? If that's the case does that mean yes vote is a vote for Salmond?

 

 

What the propaganda never seems to mention is, people in England, Wales, and Northern Ireland are suffering under the "Selfservatives", not just Scotland. It seems to me that the voting public of the UK forgot what they did to us in the 70s,80s and early 90s.

 

To finish I'll leave you all with a quote which IMHO applies to ALL politicians

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it" Joseph Goebbels

Edited January 6, 2014 by Gball1973

[Gball1973]

Just to add, the same as the other Scottish members who have said they will vote No, with as little confidence that I have in Cameron as PM I have very little confidence that the current First Minister and Scottish Government could run the country successfully.

[coldel]

I think the long term idea of an independent Scotland, which is up and running and things ticking over nicely is probably very appealing and why shouldn't it be to your average patriotic Scot. All the propaganda you see pretty much just straight to that i.e. 'our gas is worth x amount that means tomorrow we can give all your kids fifty quid a day' - it just seems to miss out the length and pain of transition and the risk involved.

[The G Man]

If we don't try it we'll never know, can't do much worse than the way it is the now

 

I am hearing this comment a lot (like martin, I live/work in Scotland for 6 months of the year) and most people cannot back up that statement with any facts.

Which (in my opinion) makes it a complete ridiculous statement to make.

Can't be any worse?! Are you kidding? What happens if you have to start paying for prescriptions, or your taxes are raised to account for shortfalls in govt. budgets, or if the new Scottish Health Service has to be paid for by Insurance, or the Oil Majors decide it would be cheaper to route North Sea oil South of the border.....

It could be much much worse than it is now.

 

I've lived here for 50 odd years, happy to present facts mate, in person, face to face, not on a subjective car forum. Far too complicated an issue for most, but more so when there is scant understanding of the nature of the debate, a comment aimed at a large minority of Scots as well as the majority of English members on here.

 

What I will say though is that, all the institutions that are bandied about as being "new" institutions to set up in an Independent Scotland are, in part, by their nature, part owned by every part of the UK.

 

Also as a committed European, being in an Independent Scotland is the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU. We're not having a referendum, or a promised one on that here, only Westminster Conservatism and UKIP are striving for that. That alone takes us to a whole new level of debate.

 

Having served in HM Forces and having seen the efforts that the UK went to in using them to offer other non autonomous regions their independence, with the cost of several thousand lives, a peaceful, negotiated referendum for the people of Scotland is welcomed and so should a Yes vote, just as a No vote would be abided by.

 

Having lived in an area that has only ever known administration from Westminster based political parties (for this read mostly Labour), I can tell you that they are abysmal, more interested in the Westminster bubble or the party "politik" than any region of the UK.

 

For me, for many reasons, the facts stick out and make it a no brainer. I may not see the full benefit, but hopefully my children and grandchildren will.

 

This is what I'm after http://reidfoundation.org/common-weal/

 

Written by a foundation set up in the memory of Jimmy Reid of Red Clydesider fame.

 

It would be lovely for this country as a whole, UK, to stay together, but it's unworkable in it's present political guise, for the majority of all the UK regions.

 

As for those that think that this is about Alex Salmond and the SNP, it's patently obvious that it's not. All I've heard so far from better together or "Project Fear" as they call themselves, is negative rhetoric that Scotland and its people are not competent to govern themselves, and that there will be a terrible backlash from every other nation on earth if we had the temerity to go it alone. Great, magic, but jings, crivvens, help ma' Boab, watch out Scotland if "Project Fear" wins.

 

My last word, haironyertaj!

[Vik54]

This is exactly what I was getting at George - many of us would probably like to see an independent Scotland - however it is the thought of Salmond and his cronies governing that independence that scares us - if they were propelling a vaguely Nordic model / had some hard sums around re-distribution of wealth, the education system and welfare we might listen

[The G Man]

Have a read at the link That's definitely my last word, no wait......sharabong (sung in a pub singer style voice)

[coldel]

This is exactly what I was getting at George - many of us would probably like to see an independent Scotland - however it is the thought of Salmond and his cronies governing that independence that scares us - if they were propelling a vaguely Nordic model / had some hard sums around re-distribution of wealth, the education system and welfare we might listen

 

That is the point a lot of people on here are making (including the majority of us unknowing English-persons ) that its plain to see that on two levels you have the public voting Yes because they get all excited about beating their chests and shouting 'we are Scotland death to the English' and reading nonsense like that shown in the link Graham shared - and secondly that the people who will lead the first critical steps into a new era appear to be totally inadequate for the job of actually running a country.

 

Had a very brief look at the 'Common Weal' without reading too far (am at work!) it is still a biased document although not as obvious as the trash propaganda that is being turned out - its not an objective document showing the strengths and weaknesses of each approach of governance - dare I say it the common weal sounds almost like a communist approach to government?

 

Flame suit zipped up and at the ready...

[glrnet]

This is exactly what I was getting at George - many of us would probably like to see an independent Scotland - however it is the thought of Salmond and his cronies governing that independence that scares us - if they were propelling a vaguely Nordic model / had some hard sums around re-distribution of wealth, the education system and welfare we might listen

 

That is the point a lot of people on here are making (including the majority of us unknowing English-persons ) that its plain to see that on two levels you have the public voting Yes because they get all excited about beating their chests and shouting 'we are Scotland death to the English' and reading nonsense like that shown in the link Graham shared - and secondly that the people who will lead the first critical steps into a new era appear to be totally inadequate for the job of actually running a country.

 

Had a very brief look at the 'Common Weal' without reading too far (am at work!) it is still a biased document although not as obvious as the trash propaganda that is being turned out - its not an objective document showing the strengths and weaknesses of each approach of governance - dare I say it the common weal sounds almost like a communist approach to government?

 

Flame suit zipped up and at the ready...

Just to be totally accurate, I didn't share that link, I quoted it.

[coldel]

Haha I didnt mean it like that mate

 

Sorry, yes quoted by Graham

[Dblock]

Is that you on changing your mind slightly Neil?

 

All political parties are liars. If you think the snp are lying but the rest aren't then I think you might be shocked lol. Just trust the one you trust the most and for me it's snp ad I've said they have done so much good stuff IMO. Forget the independence thing they have done so much good stuff for Scotland and if you like them or not credits due where credits due.

 

If we did get independence then you would need to apply for a Scottish Passport. How cool is that!

 

Also I think you guys are being completely and utterly unfair to 16 year olds. I used to know shed tons about politics when I was that age (when I got older I realised they are all liars!) Schools will educate and debate for both sides. If we let some guy who has an iq of 12 or someone voting whatever their mates are voting why not let educated 16 years vote after all it's their future and mess if it goes wrong.

[hensh65]

Only Scottish guy who couldn't give a flying ,,,,,,

 

I will not vote or moan if it goes tits up