Unemployed must work for their dole

[chubbster]

It's a good idea, though. The slaughterhouse gun, not the dole idea thing.

 

I don't know about your ancestors, but mine fought wars to eradicate that sort of evil thinking. Probably won't respond to any more posts of this nature, as it's getting too disgusting.

[Ekona]

Lol, chill out bean sprout!

 

Nazis had the right idea, just the wrong group of people.

[Ekona]

Actually, I've no idea what my ancestors did, as not only was I not there but I'm also adopted. True story, kids.

[Fodder]

Actually, I've no idea what my ancestors did, as not only was I not there but I'm also adopted. True story, kids.

I'm guessing your adoptive parents weren't on the social otherwise you would have answered you own question.

 

On a serious note, this type of subject is always going to rile folks up with their own opinions.

 

I'm honest, I don't pretend to know the answer but I don't like the thought of my hard earned going into someone's pocket who has no intention of contributing to society or at least trying to. That said I have no issue with a little of my hard earned going to those more unfortunate who through no fault cannot support themselves.

 

[AJRFulton]

I had a good job up until 2008 when the recession hit, and I ended up on the dole.

 

I don't know what was the worse experience.

 

Living on £60 a week, feeling utterly useless and patronised by the job centres. In my working life up until 2008, I had contributed an above average amount to the coffers via tax and NI, and had went the previous 6yrs in work.... I didn't want treated like a child because I hadn't filled out my job log, or hadn't been that arsed buying papers that had no jobs in them I had any realistic chance of getting.

 

or

 

One of the few minimum wage jobs I took on. Where you feel utterly worthless, and at the end of it still don't have a pot to **** in. Made to feel low by supervisors, who tended to be unskilled little Hitlers, who were too stupid to realise they were also **** all and had been given a bit of power by brown nosing somebody important. Looked down on by the general public.... and embarrassed to be seen doing a @*!# job by people you know.

 

 

Yeah 2008-2010... not good years. Both scenarios destroyed the self esteem.

 

 

As for the Tory policy. Sounds great in theory, in practice it will be the genuine ones who suffer as the dodgers get round it (and be allowed to).

Edited September 30, 2013 by AJRFulton

[sipar69]

Really, I'd rather see child support money pulled than this. If you can't afford to have kids, then don't have them in the first place.

 

We don't always agree Ekona but I'm with you one hundred percent on that. I am sick to death of people (unemployed or otherwise) moaning about the cost of having kids. Can't afford em, don't have em!

 

I was on a job that paid a lot, my wife had a great job lined up, between us earning a fair amount of cash. Then her job suddenly got dumped out of the blue and I got made redundant in the same week with a 3 month old baby. Yes we took a punt that I was paying for everything and that my job would be safe when having our baby but we had a huge amount of bad luck in the space of a few months financially, and to be honest how else can you plan for a baby other than having a job and not being in debt?

 

Also we were having trouble conceiving, time was running out as we both approached 40. So it was now or never. Prior to the job nightmare we had I had been in continuous employment for 12 years, I don't shirk work.

 

We lived off our savings for a while but that child benefit made a massive difference to simply paying for some food shopping as we tried to make it stretch as both of us coped with the demands of a young baby and huge life change and trying to find work in a recession hit market place.

 

Its not always just scroungers taking in child benefit.

 

My comments are aimed at people who seem to think that having as many children as they want is fine without first thinking about whether they can afford to look after them and then expecting those of us who have no interest in children to subsidise them. Obviously if your circumstances changed that's entirely understandable, but there are people who should already know that they can't afford kids but have them anyway because they know the State will always bail them out. Then they start moaning about the cost of bringing up kids. That I do not understand at all.

[rtbiscuit]

I was always told you can never really afford kids, and I think that's tree, you just have to adjust your life style to fit having them. But of you've got nothing in the first place why breed like a rabbit?

[Stutopia]

I'd like to see claimants paid in vouchers. If your a long time non worker and you have no medical reason to be out of work, I think all your benefits should be in vouchers like the old ration books. It should pay for the roof over your head, the food in your belly and the clothes on your back (and your kids) it shouldn't cover alcohol, cigarettes, sky tv, or the bookies. Etc. If I'm paying tax and I cut the luxuries out of my life in order to pay the bills, why should I be funding someone to smoke, drink and watch sky, when I can't. I'm more than happy to pay for and support those in need. But you don't need any of those luxuries.

 

Vouchers would just end up being sold on a black market to unscrupulous types for less than their face value so people could have cash instead. Then you're back with people having less money and having to go extra curricular for their spending.

 

It's so tough to balance carrot and stick, I truly believe the majority of people want to earn a living, doing something they like, or if need be, something they don't, to make ends meet.

 

I think the size of this problem is massively over stated by politicians looking to be populist, not people who want to try and increase social mobility. It's relatively insignificant sums when compared to the millions we pi**ed away in Afghanistan or Iraq or Libya or we will on replacing Trident.

Edited September 30, 2013 by SuperStu

[The G Man]

I was always told you can never really afford kids, and I think that's tree, you just have to adjust your life style to fit having them. But of you've got nothing in the first place why breed like a rabbit?

 

To keep teachers in a job (only kidding)

 

Best laugh I've had all week, ok it's only Monday, it's a non debate really, it'll never happen, the £300 million will not pay for the Commons and Lords expenses, before it gets to employing another army of civil servants to police/enforce it.

[ioneabee]

I was in Morrisons at lunchtime today getting a £1.50 sandwhich - all my missus will giveme per day

 

in front of me, all I can say was your typically (stereotypical) doley scrote - he bought a pack of cigarettes and £12 pounds worth of scratch cards and lottery.

 

I spoke to the lad on the till, after he'd gone who said that wasn't atypical and was actually alot lower than some will spend on it

 

:scare: :surrender:

[chubbster]

I was in Morrisons at lunchtime today getting a £1.50 sandwhich - all my missus will giveme per day

 

in front of me, all I can say was your typically (stereotypical) doley scrote - he bought a pack of cigarettes and £12 pounds worth of scratch cards and lottery.

 

I spoke to the lad on the till, after he'd gone who said that wasn't atypical and was actually alot lower than some will spend on it

 

:scare: :surrender:

 

that 'scrote' was giving back to society - £6+ in tax on a packet of fags and £3.36 to good causes from his £12 worth of scratch cards means that he gave about £10 us - what a nice man.

[ioneabee]

thats one way of looking at it - another way is - how come he has so much spare cash to "give" away ?

Edited September 30, 2013 by ioneabee

[4RE Leather]

4RELeather - that was my point. Those that need the help and are honest law abiding will always lose out to the small element that know the system and thrive on it.

I'm all for social care where folks struggle to contribute due to reasons out of their control. My sister was one of them.

 

That to me in My uneducated eye is falling down. There are plenty of deserving folks out there who the system is letting down because they don't know their way around it.

 

I don't know what the fix is but making folks who have no intention of working do something for the community they are residing in is a start - as long as it doesn't push those grafting on the bottom rung already at a disadvantage.

 

Agreed.

[4RE Leather]

The French company ATOS, the biggest independant private (force them back to work) company was recently kicked ot of USA.

Or had all it's trading stopped.

It had private medical insurance customers and refused to pay them their benefits due when they were hospitalised or sick.

As a result they were ordered to cease trading in USA (So I am led to believe)

Knowing this, the UK Government still employed them at a cost of £100 million a year, as they were the lowest bid.

ATOS's staff's cold cauculated and almost calouse black and white approach to stopping benefits of the sick and vunarable have led to an MP standing up in Parliament and quoting numbers in the region of 12000 who have died as a direct result of ATOS.

An independant report found that the common denominator was ATOS.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/aug/13/atos-doctors-improper-conduct-disability

 

Wounded ex- forces personnel who are residing in an area covered by ATOS get treated the same.

Just to say that anyone on the full DLA entitlement should not get an assessment letter until 20;15.

But if your on other benefits the changeover's and reviews will recomense after 24th October 2013.

[4RE Leather]

Really, I'd rather see child support money pulled than this. If you can't afford to have kids, then don't have them in the first place.

 

We don't always agree Ekona but I'm with you one hundred percent on that. I am sick to death of people (unemployed or otherwise) moaning about the cost of having kids. Can't afford em, don't have em!

 

If only there was a system where you could have a Zed by accident and then get state funding to subsidise the cost.

 

I have to put my hands up and say I am guilty of taking the free car tax on offer for 1 car per disabled person.

And I stick it on my Zed.

[Stutopia]

Really, I'd rather see child support money pulled than this. If you can't afford to have kids, then don't have them in the first place.

 

We don't always agree Ekona but I'm with you one hundred percent on that. I am sick to death of people (unemployed or otherwise) moaning about the cost of having kids. Can't afford em, don't have em!

 

If only there was a system where you could have a Zed by accident and then get state funding to subsidise the cost.

 

I have to put my hands up and say I am guilty of taking the free car tax on offer for 1 car per disabled person.

And I stick it on my Zed.

 

Now that's the kind of system I rate. Wasting it on kids is beyond me

[docwra]

For me, this thread kinda highlights the whole issue - despite some clear posts in the first couple of pages and a couple of stories from people who know firsthand that its not possible to live comfortably on benefits, we still have people talking about those who "play" the £76 p/w system, ATOS and disability benefit being brought into it (which are nothing to do with this particular policy) and you can tell the general feeling is negative towards anyone who isnt "paying their way" - the vast majority of people on benefits are there for a reason, very few "choose" to do it.

 

When we have two wars going on, large scale tax avoidance and an ever increasing pension bill, is £300m or whatever really a big enough deal to make it a major government policy? Its just headline grabbing at the cost of those least able to defend themselves (like the introduction of ATOS and the ESA).

[sipar69]

_{I don't think you should be surprised that a debate of this nature went beyond the scope of the original question; that's entirely natural. I totally agree that not everyone should be tarred with the same brush. I also agree that it would be plain wrong to suggest that the majority of people who are on benefits are having a great time and want to stay that way.}

 

_{The problem is that the small proportion of people who do ‘play’ the system and languish on benefits cause a disproportionate amount of anger and frustration to many of those of us who get up and go to work every day, see the cost of living rising and the value of our wages falling. Most of us are brought up from an early age to believe (rightly in my view – it’s a theory that dates back to Aristotle) that there is more value in working for something than being given it for nothing. There’s something inherently unpleasant and sneering about people who would rather sit at home and take but not give back.}

 

_{For what it’s worth, I think there is a lot to be proud of about this country but I do wonder if the concept of the value of hard work has been lost. I saw a programme recently in which a guy with a degree in media studies was refusing to take a job unless he could use his degree. I have a good degree from a good university, but when I left uni’ I didn’t consider myself to be too good to do anything that wasn’t directly relevant to my degree; I took the first job I could get so that I could pay off my debts and build a career (I’m still in the same line of work now). Similarly, we have a friend who owns a couple of hotels in the Cotswolds. He pays the going rate and even gives free staff accommodation – the hotels are good places to work but he can never get English people to take jobs as bar staff etc. He says they simply aren’t interested in the work, so virtually all of his people are Eastern European.}

 

_{I sometimes wonder if the celebrity X-factor culture isn’t partly to blame in convincing people that normal work isn’t worthy of them – everyone’s a promising musician, footballer or pop star!}

 

_{So while I’m with you that it’s easy to blow these things out of proportion and Governments will always look for vote winning policies even if there are bigger problems to address, I do think those of us who work hard have every right to be critical of those who don’t.}

Edited October 1, 2013 by sipar69

[rtbiscuit]

I finished uni with an engineering degree, not know what path to take I took the first job going, I washed dishes for at golf club for £4 an hour, people saw I was commited and it got me more work, ended up at the airport working ground crew for £5 an hour. was applying for other jobs then decided to go for the teaching but while I waited for the course to start I got work in a call centre for £6 an hour. I never sat and waited for the best job to come along, I worked until I got to where I am now. I think you're right that a lot of people come out of uni and think they're too good for certain jobs. thing is they pushed the uni system as the qualification to have, these days everyone has a degree, and its not the elite door opening tool it used to be.

[Chesterfield]

_{Similarly, we have a friend who owns a couple of hotels in the Cotswolds. He pays the going rate and even gives free staff accommodation – the hotels are good places to work but he can never get English people to take jobs as bar staff etc. He says they simply aren’t interested in the work, so virtually all of his people are Eastern European.}

 

More or less exactly what Jamie Oliver said the other week, and has been backed by Boris today.

 

Lefty proposals just seem to suggest increasing the minimum wage so its more attractive to work the bottom end jobs. No thought what so ever that increasing minimum wage will just bump up the cost of living, and drive down competitiveness of UK exports. Its pure fantasy socialist rubbish.

 

Socialism works just fine, until you run out of other peoples money.

[sipar69]

Going through college I cleaned toilets, picked fruit and stacked shelves amongst other things. It wasn't fun but I reckon it does you good to experience that kind of work. It makes me appreciate having a good job and it makes me admire the people who do it for a living, rather than sit at home on their backsides!

[rtbiscuit]

Going through college I cleaned toilets, picked fruit and stacked shelves amongst other things. It wasn't fun but I reckon it does you good to experience that kind of work. It makes me appreciate having a good job and it makes me admire the people who do it for a living, rather than sit at home on their backsides!

same for me, bar work, doorman, shop work pizza delivery all uni jobs. first job was at macdonalds. my parents said once I was 16 if I wanted money I had to earn it myself. so I got a part time job. and its the same message i'll say to my kids in 16 years time. i'm hoping like me it will teach them the value of money. and that it doesn't grow on tree's and that saving money is good.

[AJRFulton]

One thing I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment of, is don't have kids unless you can afford them.

 

Now, I understand their are some people who basically become a production line for making babies and claiming increased benefits, this is a different kettle of fish all together, but..... In the UK these days, average Joe is in his mid/late 30's before he is reasonably well established and in a position to afford kids. Problem there is obvious, whilst average Joe maybe has another 30-35yrs of working life left, mid/late 30's is nearing the end of the being able to have kids phase of life. So whilst in Average Joe/Jane maybe fairly affluent by the they are 45, they are too old to realistically (and safely) conceive.

 

The biological clock and being financially established don't go hand in hand for a very large chunk of the populous.

Edited October 1, 2013 by AJRFulton

[NeilMH]

I used to work in a garage, in the days when petrol was served at the pumps. In the evening the owner used to pay me handsomely to pick him up from a remote location and deliver him to another remote location to meet his mistress, then to wait around and return him from whence he came. So, I had 2 jobs to keep my Standard 10 on the road .... those were the days. It was a hard life if you'll excuse the phrase.

[sipar69]

One thing I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment of, is don't have kids unless you can afford them.

 

Now, I understand their are some people who basically become a production line for making babies and claiming increased benefits, this is a different kettle of fish all together, but..... In the UK these days, average Joe is in his mid/late 30's before he is reasonably well established and in a position to afford kids. Problem there is obvious, whilst average Joe maybe has another 30-35yrs of working life left, mid/late 30's is nearing the end of the being able to have kids phase of life. So whilst in Average Joe/Jane maybe fairly affluent by the they are 45, they are too old to realistically (and safely) conceive.

 

The biological clock and being financially established don't go hand in hand for a very large chunk of the populous.

 

But surely "can't afford them" equates to "can't be sure of properly looking after them". I know I'm not the most impartial commentator on this issue - I've never wanted kids; they irritate me - but even from a child's perspective it can't good to bring them into the world unless you can afford to look after them.

Edited October 1, 2013 by sipar69