Pete87 Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 If your not going to track it and it's more for looks go for the bc's, I've got the more expencive hsd's and been really happy with them there a great bit of kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3sjr Posted July 29, 2013 Author Share Posted July 29, 2013 Dedman thanks for that bit of info mate, shall make sure I get them sorted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Interesting topic after deciding i need some coilovers after my track day yesterday. I have always had them fitted to previous cars i have used on track, mainly Tein but have had some experience with others, not good i hasten to add, although they were none of the ones listed above. Personal view, i think the op would be hard pushed to notice or warrant the expense over BC, D2 etc unless he is a driving god, i will be looking myself for one of the above makes. Just noticed some D2's in the for sale section, i have to do some saving first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 If your not going to track it and it's more for looks go for the bc's, I've got the more expencive hsd's and been really happy with them there a great bit of kit. Looks? Its a coilover, you cant see them ........ My personal experience is that you WILL notice the difference between D2's and HSD's, the former have harsher damping and can be quite choppy down a bumpy road, where the HSD's are much more compliant. Cant speak for BC's, KW's or Ohlins but I also know the differences become a lot smaller as you spend more money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulletMagnet Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 If your not going to track it and it's more for looks go for the bc's, I've got the more expencive hsd's and been really happy with them there a great bit of kit. Looks? Its a coilover, you cant see them ........ My personal experience is that you WILL notice the difference between D2's and HSD's, the former have harsher damping and can be quite choppy down a bumpy road, where the HSD's are much more compliant. Cant speak for BC's, KW's or Ohlins but I also know the differences become a lot smaller as you spend more money What's your take on true coilover vs OEM setup coilover in the rear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 If your not going to track it and it's more for looks go for the bc's, I've got the more expencive hsd's and been really happy with them there a great bit of kit. Looks? Its a coilover, you cant see them ........ My personal experience is that you WILL notice the difference between D2's and HSD's, the former have harsher damping and can be quite choppy down a bumpy road, where the HSD's are much more compliant. Cant speak for BC's, KW's or Ohlins but I also know the differences become a lot smaller as you spend more money What's your take on true coilover vs OEM setup coilover in the rear? TBH Ive not drive a Zed with true coilovers but from looking into what owners have said I dont think its a massive issue, I believe the Ohlins are two piece units as well and they tend to know what they are up to The biggest difference in my experience between cheap and expensive suspension is the damping, the speed at which it reacts, the ferocity that it reacts at and the control it exerts over the wheel. Cheap stuff is crashy, bumpy and leaves you with wheels all over the place on a bumpy road, the good stuff feels like its not even working that hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 I had an Aprillia RSV R with Ohlins as standard and it was sublime, head and shoulders above anything else i ever rode. If i ever saw a set 2nd hand of Ohlins for the Zed i would not hesitate to buy them. Also heard many a good thing about Quantam but not sure if they make anything for the Zed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeisterR Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Let me throw in my 2p and see if it helps out. First, this really depends on the budget of the owners. What you will be looking is best value for money, not the best suspensions. Moving on to the actual brands, it depends on how the suspension are design and how it is specified. MeisterR specify our suspension with the UK uneven roads in mind, both the Zeta-S and the Zeta-R coilovers. What that mean is that our suspension on softer setting will provide a compliant ride over the uneven road surfaces while retaining traction. On harder setting, they will be responsive for the occasional track days. We aim to provide the best value for money at the "Under £1000" mark. Moving onto more expensive suspension such as our newly developed GT1. The GT1 use advance engineering and bespoke precision manufacturing to provide high quality damping characteristic. What this mean is that the GT1 are design to be a "better" suspension everywhere. It will provide more comfort for motorway driving, more response on fast uneven country road, and still be compliant over bumps. We aim to provide the level of damping quality that Ohlins DFV provide, but at a much cheaper price. So far from all the testing, we are very happy at what we achieved. Suspension setup is subjective, it vary between driver. This is why having a damping adjustment is very useful because it mean driver can tune the suspension to their personal preference. Having control over the suspension and ride characteristic will deliver much more driver confidence and allow the driver to enjoy the car more on those occasion where you just want to push the car a little harder over your favourite stretch of road. If anyone have any other questions, please feel free to let me know. Jerrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryl Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Let me throw in my 2p and see if it helps out. First, this really depends on the budget of the owners. What you will be looking is best value for money, not the best suspensions. Moving on to the actual brands, it depends on how the suspension are design and how it is specified. MeisterR specify our suspension with the UK uneven roads in mind, both the Zeta-S and the Zeta-R coilovers. What that mean is that our suspension on softer setting will provide a compliant ride over the uneven road surfaces while retaining traction. On harder setting, they will be responsive for the occasional track days. We aim to provide the best value for money at the "Under £1000" mark. Moving onto more expensive suspension such as our newly developed GT1. The GT1 use advance engineering and bespoke precision manufacturing to provide high quality damping characteristic. What this mean is that the GT1 are design to be a "better" suspension everywhere. It will provide more comfort for motorway driving, more response on fast uneven country road, and still be compliant over bumps. We aim to provide the level of damping quality that Ohlins DFV provide, but at a much cheaper price. So far from all the testing, we are very happy at what we achieved. Suspension setup is subjective, it vary between driver. This is why having a damping adjustment is very useful because it mean driver can tune the suspension to their personal preference. Having control over the suspension and ride characteristic will deliver much more driver confidence and allow the driver to enjoy the car more on those occasion where you just want to push the car a little harder over your favourite stretch of road. If anyone have any other questions, please feel free to let me know. Jerrick Sounds like a good explanation. However, not to pick holes, but, could you explain the advanced engineering and bespoke precision machining please? Surely all dampers etc need precision machining so all the holes line up etc, and is bespoke to the car, as the mounting point dont change. Not trying to cause a ruck or anything (this thread has seen enough), but just trying to understand what is actually involved in the GT1 design and manufacture over and above the Zeta spec stuff. Would just like some more in depth knowledge as to what is involved in the design, manufacture and testing of the 2/3 sets that you do. Any info you can supply would also help any potential buyers when choosing a spec, or even choosing your kit over something like the BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeisterR Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 I try to keep it simple without going in too technical. There are 2 part to the working of the piston, the actual piston itself, and the shims that are sitting on it. What these part are design to do is control the characteristic in which the oil go from one side of the piston to the other. How easy or difficult is it for the oil to get pass at a certain speed is what define the characteristic of the dampers. In basic terms, the piston is just a piece of metal with holes in it, that is covered by the shims to control the oil flow. Most suspension uses a simple mass produced piston that are "press" out and then machine flat. This process is simple, inexpensive, and produce relatively accurate piston specification. The rest depends on the shim stack and how a supplier design them... that is where MeisterR expertise comes in. But in short, one can easily use the same piston and design the suspension for road use or race use simply by adjusting the shims on top... the limitation on what you can do will normally be base on the design of the piston. It is a balancing act of getting the right performance at the acceptable price point, and that is what we have been doing with the Zeta-S / Zeta-R for years with great success. What what is so special about the MeisterR GT1, Ohlins DFV, Quantum, etc... Why are they twice the price? and what makes them feel so different than the cheaper products? The simple answer is by using advance engineering and precision machining, we can get around the limitation that the "simple" piston cannot do. On the MeisterR GT1, we have 2 system in there. The SFV (Sequential Flow Valve), and the PAC (Pressurised Air Chamber) design into the piston. The SFV is a series of small valve that are design to open up in sequence. What this allow the suspension to do is react to small movement that normal piston cannot react to. And since they open up sequentially, they actually can control small movement in incremental level until the main valve open to achieve full flow. The result is comfort on the motorway (small movement) and sharp steering response (full flow) all achieve at the same time. These small valve are all precision drilled, and it also require a very high level of accuracy. Due to this needed accuracy, all GT1 piston have to be individually CNC machined out of aluminium here in the UK. The PAC is a new engineering concept that we incorporated into the GT1. By having a small air chamber inside the piston, it allows the oil in the chamber to "vibrate" against the air chamber. Similar to having air in the brake line that cause spongy brake. This mean the MeisterR GT1 suspension can actually react to suspension movement that are so small and fast that a normal suspension will not be able to react to at all, such as driving over ribbed concrete. In short, the PAC almost act like a piston inside the piston, and it is a solution that we engineered here in the UK in house that will not be found in any other suspension manufacturer. Both the SFV and the PAC are incorporated into the GT1 piston, couple that with knowledge and understanding of the shim stack, the ending result is a very capable suspension that do well everywhere.... on road and on track... I hope that give a little insight into what we are doing in MeisterR. While we don't claim to be the "best", we certainly have the understanding and the technical ability to hang with the big boys such as Ohlins... and the GT1 are sure to give them a good run for their money especially when we setting the RRP at £1550 inclusive of VAT. Jerrick 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryl Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Hi Jerrick Thankyou for taking the time to respond to my question, and with lots of detail and explanation. I hope that this also helps prospective buyers when it comes to choosing a suspension set up, and I hope they come to you. I think that as we have very specific types of roads here in the UK, that having a company that understands that is very important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dblock Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Enjoyed reading that thank you! When I was younger I always thought harder suspension was better because racecar! But sticking to speed limits my dads car was faster on a lot of country roads. Yes it comes down to my terrible driving to but the soft suspension on his car gives you a lot more comfort and confidence as its not choppy or thrown off by bumps, it just glides over them. If you ever need a tester for those fancy gt1 coilivers on Scottish roads let me know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryl Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Or fast roads in Buckinghamshire..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Cracking post, nice work MeisterR Out of interest though, why does the machining have to be done in the UK though, CNC machines and programs are the same the world over arent they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeisterR Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 We got a few test car already, a Nissan R35 GTR, Lexus SC430, and a Mazda MX5. All have their own trait so we want to test the GT1 for its all rounder ability on different cars. When I was younger I always thought harder suspension was better because racecar! It is a common misconception, especially been driven by expensive Japanese suspension that are rock solid. The thing to remember is that suspension's job is to keep the tyre on the ground to generate traction. If you have a suspension and the tyres are skipping over the road surface, it isn't generating any traction. In short, everything does boil down to the 4 bit of rubber that is touching the ground. A good suspension need to control body movement, while at the same time retain traction... this is especially true for a road car using road tyres. A race car suspension can be very stiff because they are driving on a flat surfaces on slick tyres, this is a completely different ball game to a road suspension, and require a very different tune. A good suspensions should be nice to ride on, and shouldn't feel nervous of skiddish. And that is what we have been offering with the Zeta-S / Zeta-R for a few years already. Out of interest though, why does the machining have to be done in the UK though, CNC machines and programs are the same the world over arent they? It is mainly because of the accuracy that we need to achieve. We have an in house 3-axis CNC machine, but it wasn't able to produce the complex shape we need for the GT1 piston. So we gave the design to an engineering firm that we use, and even they had to buy new high-speed drill bit to produce the GT1 piston. There are part of the piston that are less than 0.5mm thick... That is why accuracy is very important. That is why we rather get these piston CNC in the UK so we can check over a batch and immediately reject it should any measurement be out of tolerance. But our guy is good, very good. So for the sake of the minor price difference (once you factor in cost of shipping, etc), I rather pay more to get something right the first time, than to pay less and get something wrong twice. Jerrick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Fair play to you, I only ask as I supply CNC machinists all over the world, including into a couple of F1 teams Have to say its really nice to see a trader who not only understands but also clearly has a passion for what he does, Ill certainly be in touch nect time I need some new dampers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryl Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Fair play to you, I only ask as I supply CNC machinists all over the world, including into a couple of F1 teams Have to say its really nice to see a trader who not only understands but also clearly has a passion for what he does, Ill certainly be in touch nect time I need some new dampers What company do you work for chap? Deckel by any chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Excel Technical Consulting, we mainly do aerospace and composite recruitment. Drop me a PM if you might be looking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryl Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Excel Technical Consulting, we mainly do aerospace and composite recruitment. Drop me a PM if you might be looking Sorry, cant throw you any work im afraid, I work at Red Bull, so wondered if you supplied us machines at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 No, Ive had painters and machine operators in there before but ......... well, you know the situation, not much hope for anyone in there now Ive got machinists at Toro Rosso though, and Mark Kember, one of your laminators used to work for me here in the office, most of the other connies will know who I am too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeisterR Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 One thing I have to admit is that when it comes to finding the talent and experience of pushing the envelope of motorsports, we Brits still got it. Working with a few firms I realise how many engineers are involved with top tier world class motorsport (F1, WRC, etc) are located right here in UK. We may not have all the "Hype", but boy... can we build something that will work where others cannot. As for the GT1 suspensions, I am just doing the final test as I don't want to be offering them until I am 110% happy with them. So I hope to get everything tested in the next few weeks so I can offer them once I cross all the "t" and dots all the "i". Jerrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliveBoy Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 One thing I have to admit is that when it comes to finding the talent and experience of pushing the envelope of motorsports, we Brits still got it.Working with a few firms I realise how many engineers are involved with top tier world class motorsport (F1, WRC, etc) are located right here in UK. We may not have all the "Hype", but boy... can we build something that will work where others cannot. As for the GT1 suspensions, I am just doing the final test as I don't want to be offering them until I am 110% happy with them. So I hope to get everything tested in the next few weeks so I can offer them once I cross all the "t" and dots all the "i". Jerrick A British based company is always a plus for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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