jell36 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Also, although you didn't, I hate it when plumbers call them selves heating engineers. An engineer is a very different job and in Germany it is illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have the qualifications and in America it is highly frowned upon and considered a lie unless you have the qualifications and are a member of an engineering council. In the UK we have highly regarded engineering councils like the Institute of Mechanical Engineers of which I am a chartered member of but the IMechE does sod all to protect the engineering name. Interesting and I agree and this is a whole new box of frogs ... the term "Engineer" covers many things in the UK and has, IMO, been severely bastardised and diluted over the years ... for instance, being able to successfully change the spark plugs on a tractor does not make you an engineer, whereas knowing how to design the engine and the best place to put the spark plugs in a tractor probably does Yeah, I'll save the rest of my arguments for another time as they aren't relevant to this thread. I like your example though especially as I studied automotive design and have worked on engine designs for Perkins, I might remember that one for the next time someone says to me "So you're a mechanic?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Makes me f#cking mad when I see comments about so called rip off tradesmen. I am a self employed plumber,heating intaller and Gas Registered intaller. Every five years i have to undertake training and assessments at my cost to carrying out gas work.So thats a week not earning money but shelling out. I pay to register with Gas Safe anually I pay public liability insurance. I did 5 years apprentiship on crap money. I pay an accountant to do my books. I have a van full of expensive tools some of which need replacing on a regular basis. I go and survey jobs which I may never get at no cost to the prospective client. I come to you to do my work. I am sorry if some of think I dont deserve to make a decent livng. There is a difference between me and some site monkey who does a bit of work on the side. Dont tar us all with the same brush!! While I am having a rant I have seen another thread on this forum where members were encouraging others to fit their own boilers including gas work "after all its only plumbing" Totally bloody irresponsible!! Would you be happy if your neighbour carried out his own gas work? I have only read the first two pages of this thread so this post may not be in context to comments made recently. Also, alhough you didn't, I hate it when plumbers call them selves heating engineers. An engineer is a very different job and in Germany it is illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have the qualifiactions and in America it is highly frowned upon and considered a lie unless you have the qualifications and are a memeber of an engineering council. In the UK we have highly regarded engineering councils like the Institute of Mechanical Engineers of which I am a chartered member of but the IMechE does sod all to protect the engineering name. Sorry not directed at you specifically stanzed, rant over. Exactly, there not engineers. To me an Engineer is a Chartered Engineer. Infract there not even incorporated Engineer level. I would say there technician level if I'm honest and should be paid accordingly! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioneabee Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Thing is I earn a really good wage but most folk don't know it, but I think the problem with "these" tradesmen is that there sitting in there shity wee houses, with there clapped out cars. Then they turn up at my house, take one look at it, then see the £45k worth of cars in the drive and think "happy days"! I'm not saying that applies to all tradesmen, but I know the one's I've used! My neighbour is a plumber .............. oops, I mean heating engineer..... and he has openly admitted to me that his fees have been (in the past ???) based on the house, the car, the appearance etc of the customer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 I'm electrician / training to be an electrical engineer for the a family run contracting firm who do our work mainly within the distribution network. I hate doing foreniers for this whole reason. People expect a job done for a tenner an hour or sometimes even less than that. why should i? not only does a 2 hour job often mess up you whole day, but it often means I have to turn down plans for the night before or something for the whole weekend. Also for someone self employed, a small 2 hour job is a pain in the arse as it's likely you will not be able to fill the rest of your day. as someone else said they probably put in a high price hoping they would be turned down. Also doing stuff for money with friends doesn't always go well, especially if one of them feels hard done by or doesn't pay for ages it can cause arguements. Don't forget that charges also have to include paying for vehicles (associated tax, insurance, fuel), additional staff for admin and payroll, premesis, advertising, subscriptions to stuff like niceic, eca, and QA accreditation, training (which is just daft the amount of health and safety crap you must have these days), also in my firm we spend weeks putting in for jobs that we may not get - the cost of this time must be recovered. the list goes on and on. Don't forget they have to cover for the times when they have no work. I would help out a mate if they were totally stuck but i would never do weekend work unless I was getting paid silly money for it. If you think your being ripped off then go elsewhere. Nobody (except maybe my mother ) would go with the first insurance company they got a quote off so why do it with tradesmen Also comparing with site workers is not really applicable. I know a few site joiners who work on big sites and i wouldn't let them anywhere near my house. You often pay the extra cash to get the job right first time by someone who takes pride in their work. Make sure you state how neat and well done everything must be done. If they don't work to the standard that you have stated then don't pay them until it's right. If you find a tradesman who does a crap job then charges a lot. make sure you tell everyone you know to stay away. it is those people who give everyone else a bad name and are the reason why every trader has to pay rip-off prices for liability insurance etc. Still not worth £300 a day, sorry dude! Fair point, it is expensive but surely a fast worker (who may have invested a lot in tools to do a faster job) should be rewarded for his speed, not penalised. MY mate set up his own plastering firm. He undercuts many rival firms (based on price per square metre. Yet he is super fast and does an amazing job. If the price is based on the size of the job - and it is a fair price, then surely the client is the winner if he gets it done in half the time? Yeah if it a fair price! I'm going to stick my head on the block here and say what I think most people think. Tradesmen are not worth what they charge, period. I don't care how fancy your tools are either, there only to make your job easier. £150 a day max! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioneabee Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Makes me f#cking mad when I see comments about so called rip off tradesmen. I am a self employed plumber,heating intaller and Gas Registered intaller. Every five years i have to undertake training and assessments at my cost to carrying out gas work.So thats a week not earning money but shelling out. I pay to register with Gas Safe anually I pay public liability insurance. I did 5 years apprentiship on crap money. I pay an accountant to do my books. I have a van full of expensive tools some of which need replacing on a regular basis. I go and survey jobs which I may never get at no cost to the prospective client. I come to you to do my work. I am sorry if some of think I dont deserve to make a decent livng. There is a difference between me and some site monkey who does a bit of work on the side. Dont tar us all with the same brush!! While I am having a rant I have seen another thread on this forum where members were encouraging others to fit their own boilers including gas work "after all its only plumbing" Totally bloody irresponsible!! Would you be happy if your neighbour carried out his own gas work? I have only read the first two pages of this thread so this post may not be in context to comments made recently. and to add to this - local authority Building Control WILL pursue and prosecute people who mess with gas fittings who are not gas safe registered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 How do you make a living stuarty? I am still wondering what you do to be so handsomely rewarded that you can afford either a 45K car or 45 cars worth 1k each? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 I wonder what job you do stuarty? I am self-employed, definitely do not overcharge and do a bloody good job to boot. However, my overheads (which people probably don't even consider) are fairly substantial - insurance, electricity, heating bills, machinery, website hosting and design, phone bills, staff wages, expensive printing inks (I use various types and the price of some makes your eyes water), stock costs, advertising (huge amount is spent on this), bank charges, business rates etc, etc. If I did some work for you you'd probably think, she's only got an old Roadster so why should I, with my 45K worth of cars, pay her a living wage? Do you pay your staff £300 a day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Nope. So what do you do for a living that earns you so much? Is there a reason you can't say? Are you perhaps a spy on a top secret mission? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Im a carpenter/joiner and employ other tradesmen but unfortunately i don't live anywere near scotland but for that money would quite happily relocate Down in sunny devon the average price for a cash job is about £150 a day. I would say though that sometimes you have to take the rough with the smooth, He could of just as easily had an absolute nightmare fitting your flooring and taken 3 days to fit it but i'm damn sure you wouldn't have offered him anymore money irrelevant of how good a job he'd done. You win some you lose some Sorry I disagree, if the guy said £300 and would take 2 days fine. If I came home and as you said had a nightmare doing the job, I would honestly give him extra. But I expect the same in return. Then my friend you are in a very small minority and fair play to you Id just like to add not all of us are like that and i don't know about the chap you used but i have over £60k's worth of tools in my lock up which unfortunately need paying for some how £60,000 worth of tools? Are you running a workshop or are they not just joinery tools or do you have multiples? As that seems a little excessive. Granted my dad has about that in tools but £30,000 of that is a big workshop saw thing that cuts, planes, mitres, routersand all the rest of it but that's an industrial unit that runs off a 3 phase power supply. The rest of his stuff like the dewalt drills, paslode nail guns, dewalt mitre saws, dewalt table saws, laser levels, several routers etc are only worht around 30K at the most and I don't think he is missing any tools. Whilst i'm only a mere 39 years of age I directly employ other tradesmen and have the old school mentality that they should only have to supply there hand tools and a cordless so with that in mind i have multiples of the same power tools Yeah ok, you employ tradesmen but do you pay them £300 a day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Why are you getting your knickers in a twist about how much we pay our staff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmc Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Im a carpenter/joiner and employ other tradesmen but unfortunately i don't live anywere near scotland but for that money would quite happily relocate Down in sunny devon the average price for a cash job is about £150 a day. I would say though that sometimes you have to take the rough with the smooth, He could of just as easily had an absolute nightmare fitting your flooring and taken 3 days to fit it but i'm damn sure you wouldn't have offered him anymore money irrelevant of how good a job he'd done. You win some you lose some Sorry I disagree, if the guy said £300 and would take 2 days fine. If I came home and as you said had a nightmare doing the job, I would honestly give him extra. But I expect the same in return. Then my friend you are in a very small minority and fair play to you Id just like to add not all of us are like that and i don't know about the chap you used but i have over £60k's worth of tools in my lock up which unfortunately need paying for some how £60,000 worth of tools? Are you running a workshop or are they not just joinery tools or do you have multiples? As that seems a little excessive. Granted my dad has about that in tools but £30,000 of that is a big workshop saw thing that cuts, planes, mitres, routersand all the rest of it but that's an industrial unit that runs off a 3 phase power supply. The rest of his stuff like the dewalt drills, paslode nail guns, dewalt mitre saws, dewalt table saws, laser levels, several routers etc are only worht around 30K at the most and I don't think he is missing any tools. Whilst i'm only a mere 39 years of age I directly employ other tradesmen and have the old school mentality that they should only have to supply there hand tools and a cordless so with that in mind i have multiples of the same power tools Yeah ok, you employ tradesmen but do you pay them £300 a day? Didn't ever say i did and if you have another look at what ive wrote you'll find that i agree with you that you've paid to much and that £120-£150 a day is more like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Nope. So what do you do for a living that earns you so much? Is there a reason you can't say? Are you perhaps a spy on a top secret mission? Excuse me, never in this entire thread have I mentioned how much I get paid other than I'm well paid for what I do. Furthermore at no time did I suggest that I should not pay someone the going rate because of the type of car they drive. I only pointed out the fact that I thought "I " was being overcharged due to my wife and I'd cars. Also the money I used to buy my cars had nothing to do with my earnings. Trust me, on my salary I wouldn't be able to afford them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jell36 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Yeah if it a fair price! I'm going to stick my head on the block here and say what I think most people think. Tradesmen are not worth what they charge, period. I don't care how fancy your tools are either, there only to make your job easier. £150 a day max! But then the tools allow the job to get done quicker and so saves time So if you had 2 joiners, one with a hammer and chisel (don't know how you spell it) and one with all the latest power tools, the one with the power tools would get the job finised quicker (genrally at least, not always) and so could command a higher day wage because they get more done in a day along with having to cover the cost of the tools. You could argue that the power tools man can get more jobs done in say a week and so earn more money but that's not how business works unfortunately. I think the mentallity (and I don't argue with it) is that there is a finite amount of work and so getting the job done quicker means more free ime to do what they want as opposed to getting more work in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 "I only pointed out the fact that I thought "I " was being overcharged due to my wife and I'd cars" So how did you arrive at this conclusion? Your evidence seems pretty flimsy to me. If you are right then I will go to the scrapyard and get myself a heap of tangled metal and tradesmen will probably pay me to work on my house Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jell36 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Exactly, there not engineers. To me an Engineer is a Chartered Engineer. Infract there not even incorporated Engineer level. I would say there technician level if I'm honest and should be paid accordingly! Stuarty may hate me for this but I would say he may well be an engineer as not many people outside of the industry know all of the IMechE chartership levels or any other engineering council and the technician level is relatively new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Sounds like to me someone's looked at how easy it is to do laminate flooring, and thought "Chuff me, I could do that! I've made a bit of a mistake here by getting someone else to do it..." Are you actually saying that no-one is worth charging £300 a day? Or what jobs do you feel should be worth it? I'm saying general building trades, (not engineers) are not worth £300 a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jell36 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 "I only pointed out the fact that I thought "I " was being overcharged due to my wife and I'd cars" So how did you arrive at this conclusion? Your evidence seems pretty flimsy to me. If you are right then I will go to the scrapyard and get myself a heap of tangled metal and tradesmen will probably pay me to work on my house I still agree that £300 a day for a joiner is expensive though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Thing is I earn a really good wage but most folk don't know it, but I think the problem with "these" tradesmen is that there sitting in there shity wee houses, with there clapped out cars. Then they turn up at my house, take one look at it, then see the £45k worth of cars in the drive and think "happy days"! I'm not saying that applies to all tradesmen, but I know the one's I've used! My neighbour is a plumber .............. oops, I mean heating engineer..... and he has openly admitted to me that his fees have been (in the past ???) based on the house, the car, the appearance etc of the customer I knew it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jell36 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Thing is I earn a really good wage but most folk don't know it, but I think the problem with "these" tradesmen is that there sitting in there shity wee houses, with there clapped out cars. Then they turn up at my house, take one look at it, then see the £45k worth of cars in the drive and think "happy days"! I'm not saying that applies to all tradesmen, but I know the one's I've used! My neighbour is a plumber .............. oops, I mean heating engineer..... and he has openly admitted to me that his fees have been (in the past ???) based on the house, the car, the appearance etc of the customer I knew it! A lot do it Stuarty, if they think they can get away with charging more because the customer looks affluent then some will try it, if they loose out on the work because of the price then hard luck but it's the risk people take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Makes me f#cking mad when I see comments about so called rip off tradesmen. I am a self employed plumber,heating intaller and Gas Registered intaller. Every five years i have to undertake training and assessments at my cost to carrying out gas work.So thats a week not earning money but shelling out. I pay to register with Gas Safe anually I pay public liability insurance. I did 5 years apprentiship on crap money. I pay an accountant to do my books. I have a van full of expensive tools some of which need replacing on a regular basis. I go and survey jobs which I may never get at no cost to the prospective client. I come to you to do my work. I am sorry if some of think I dont deserve to make a decent livng. There is a difference between me and some site monkey who does a bit of work on the side. Dont tar us all with the same brush!! While I am having a rant I have seen another thread on this forum where members were encouraging others to fit their own boilers including gas work "after all its only plumbing" Totally bloody irresponsible!! Would you be happy if your neighbour carried out his own gas work? I have only read the first two pages of this thread so this post may not be in context to comments made recently. and to add to this - local authority Building Control WILL pursue and prosecute people who mess with gas fittings who are not gas safe registered Also, a building control officer in Scotland will earn around £27-£32k a year, that's around £115 a day, minus tax, insurance etc. also they need to study four years at uni, living of a loan they need to pay back at 11% of there salary after there first £15k, then they have to complete x amount of years working and studying for there professional exams. And a joiner wants £300 cash in hand for a days work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioneabee Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Makes me f#cking mad when I see comments about so called rip off tradesmen. I am a self employed plumber,heating intaller and Gas Registered intaller. Every five years i have to undertake training and assessments at my cost to carrying out gas work.So thats a week not earning money but shelling out. I pay to register with Gas Safe anually I pay public liability insurance. I did 5 years apprentiship on crap money. I pay an accountant to do my books. I have a van full of expensive tools some of which need replacing on a regular basis. I go and survey jobs which I may never get at no cost to the prospective client. I come to you to do my work. I am sorry if some of think I dont deserve to make a decent livng. There is a difference between me and some site monkey who does a bit of work on the side. Dont tar us all with the same brush!! While I am having a rant I have seen another thread on this forum where members were encouraging others to fit their own boilers including gas work "after all its only plumbing" Totally bloody irresponsible!! Would you be happy if your neighbour carried out his own gas work? I have only read the first two pages of this thread so this post may not be in context to comments made recently. and to add to this - local authority Building Control WILL pursue and prosecute people who mess with gas fittings who are not gas safe registered Also, a building control officer in Scotland will earn around £27-£32k a year, that's around £115 a day, minus tax, insurance etc. also they need to study four years at uni, living of a loan they need to pay back at 11% of there salary after there first £15k, then they have to complete x amount of years working and studying for there professional exams. And a joiner wants £300 cash in hand for a days work. I like you ............. alot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 CHILL OUT GUYS!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Why are you getting your knickers in a twist about how much we pay our staff? I don't care one bit how much you pay your staff. I started this thread to highlight the fact that I personally don't think tradesmen are worth what I've been getting quoted and charged. Then you comment on how much overheads etc you have to pay, therefore justifying what you have to charge your customers. But the point of the thread isn't about what companies charge, it's about what individual tradesmen charge, and in my experience its around £300 a day. Now moving on to my cars, other folk on hear have agreed that "some" individual tradesmen, quote's are based on how affluent there customers look. Now I'm not suggesting I'm affluent but the fact you sacrifice things to have a nice car should not have an impact on it. Finally, I stand by my comment that individual tradesmen are not worth any more than £150 a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jell36 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Why are you getting your knickers in a twist about how much we pay our staff? I don't care one bit how much you pay your staff. I started this thread to highlight the fact that I personally don't think tradesmen are worth what I've been getting quoted and charged. Then you comment on how much overheads etc you have to pay, therefore justifying what you have to charge your customers. But the point of the thread isn't about what companies charge, it's about what individual tradesmen charge, and in my experience its around £300 a day. Now moving on to my cars, other folk on hear have agreed that "some" individual tradesmen, quote's are based on how affluent there customers look. Now I'm not suggesting I'm affluent but the fact you sacrifice things to have a nice car should not have an impact on it. Finally, I stand by my comment that individual tradesmen are not worth any more than £150 a day. Some are like plumbers and sparkys but £150 is about right for a joiner (can be a bit more but can be a bit less). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jell36 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) CHILL OUT GUYS!! I like this, it's getting me closer to my 350 posts for my free forum sticker. Edited February 5, 2013 by jell36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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