stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 What is it with tradesmen and what they try to charge? I've been doing a lot of work in my home recently, therefore been using a lot of trades, joiners, plasterers, plumbers etc. I always have all my own materials, so I'm only paying for labour. Also I try to give the work to local guys, so no real travelling for them and most of the time they have full time jobs and do my work at night or weekends. Anyway I'm constantly getting quoted a weeks wage for a days work or like today a days pay for an hours work. I had a guy who isn't even a joiner lay some laminate flooring at the weekend he quoted me £300 for his labour, then he comes on Sunday and does it in 7 hours. Then today I got a neighbour, who cleans gutters etc to replace 3 joints on my guttering as they were leaking and he took 40 mins to do it and charged me £90. When I pay them it's always cash in hand! All I can say is that all the work I've been getting done is simply upgrades, I don't really need to get it done, but that's me finished giving tradesmen my hard earned cash. Any work that they get from me in the future will only be essential things and I'll be asking for receipts. I hope this current recession lasts another 10 years and they all end up bust! Rant over! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 On the face of it £300 to lay a floor in 7 hrs seems a bit steep BUT you know if he brings his own tools, skills & experience then I would be inclined to say that would go some way to building up the price, especially if it would take you two days and he does a far better job. I think sometimes you also have to factor in (e.g on the guttering) that it's not a full days work and potentially he's losing half a day to do a 40 minute job due to travel etc. There's my two penneth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chubby Ninja Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I always undercharge on homers and i end up feeling like ive been screwd. I work with people who charge like £200 to fit 8 spot lights where i would take about 60. The way they see it itl cost you alot more to get it done by a company but some of they prices youd be just aswell geting a company in to do it. You should get some quotes before letting them start and always shop about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jell36 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) What is it with tradesmen and what they try to charge? I've been doing a lot of work in my home recently, therefore been using a lot of trades, joiners, plasterers, plumbers etc. I always have all my own materials, so I'm only paying for labour. Also I try to give the work to local guys, so no real travelling for them and most of the time they have full time jobs and do my work at night or weekends. Anyway I'm constantly getting quoted a weeks wage for a days work or like today a days pay for an hours work. I had a guy who isn't even a joiner lay some laminate flooring at the weekend he quoted me £300 for his labour, then he comes on Sunday and does it in 7 hours. Then today I got a neighbour, who cleans gutters etc to replace 3 joints on my guttering as they were leaking and he took 40 mins to do it and charged me £90. When I pay them it's always cash in hand! All I can say is that all the work I've been getting done is simply upgrades, I don't really need to get it done, but that's me finished giving tradesmen my hard earned cash. Any work that they get from me in the future will only be essential things and I'll be asking for receipts. I hope this current recession lasts another 10 years and they all end up bust! Rant over! I agree with you, tradesman rates these days are extorionate. My dad is an old school joiner/shop fitter he's been doing the job for 35 years and he refuses to charge people more than £120 a day (to me that's fair but to be honest too cheap, around £12.50 an hour labour which includes the cost of tools etc) as otherwise he feels like he is ripping them off even though a full day in his mind is 7:30am - 6:00pm without a lunch break. And then I have friends who will not work for less than £150 a day and they are doing plastering which is much less skilled and requires less tools and they learnt the skill in about a week and a full day to them is about 9:00 am until 5:00pm with an hours lunch break. To add to it my friends will earn around £40,000 a year plus a lot of back handers and I look at myself and think I paid a lot of money to go to uni, worked hard to obtain my education hold down a good engineering design job yet I'm on considerably less money than them, how much of a mug am I? Don't get me wrong some tradesman charge good rates, do good work and care about what they are doing and if it saves me a lot of hassle I will happily pay it but there are a lot with no education/training in the job who aren't very good but think they are the best and they also charge full whack for their services. I'm just relieved that I have many good and close friends in every trade who are happy to help me for free or mates rates when I need it as either I have helped them in the past by labouring, designing something for them, doing structual enigneering calcs for them or my dad has done very cheap work for them at my request to help them out. Edited February 5, 2013 by jell36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) On the face of it £300 to lay a floor in 7 hrs seems a bit steep BUT you know if he brings his own tools, skills & experience then I would be inclined to say that would go some way to building up the price, especially if it would take you two days and he does a far better job. I think sometimes you also have to factor in (e.g on the guttering) that it's not a full days work and potentially he's losing half a day to do a 40 minute job due to travel etc. There's my two penneth! Mate, on a building site most trades get about £10 to £12 an hour therefore a 40 hour week would pay around £400 to £500. Minus from that tax and insurance and your left with between £330 to £400 for five days work. Then they have travel etc and have to supply there own tools. Then they drive a mile to my house do 7 hours work or a days work and take £300 and that was an average quote by the way as I asked a couple of guys. As for the guy who charged my £90 for 40 mins work, he lives 80 meters from me and did it after work. This is only 2 examples I could bore you with at least 10. Edited February 5, 2013 by stuarty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 You're not paying for the time, you're paying for the knowledge to do the job. Also there's nothing worse than people supplying their own kit, as not only do you lose your profit on the materials but also it tends to be any old crap and invariably bits missing which you then have to waste time with. They also have to pay for their own insurance which isn't cheap any more, plus all those lovely taxes that PAYE folks tend to forget that small businesses as well as Starbucks have to pay. £300 to give up half of a weekend seems more than fair to me. I wouldn't do it for less than that, my free time is more important to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jell36 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) You're not paying for the time, you're paying for the knowledge to do the job. Also there's nothing worse than people supplying their own kit, as not only do you lose your profit on the materials but also it tends to be any old crap and invariably bits missing which you then have to waste time with. They also have to pay for their own insurance which isn't cheap any more, plus all those lovely taxes that PAYE folks tend to forget that small businesses as well as Starbucks have to pay. £300 to give up half of a weekend seems more than fair to me. I wouldn't do it for less than that, my free time is more important to me. Agree that there is nothing worse than supplying your own kit to the tradesman as they know what kit is best and the better kits tend to make their life easier and so the job faster however some put like 30% on the price of the materials for no good reason (it's delivered to the job so they need to make 30% profit from making a phone call?). Yes they pay tax and NI, but wait a minute so do people on PAYE and tax is the same 20% (depending on total income) and NI is around the same. Apart from that they pay nothing more, they do not pay insurance or at least no tradesman I have ever met does and they do not pay business rates. We are not talking about companies that you get in to do the work here, who would pay business rates and employers NI and insurance etc, we are talking about one man bands who don't. Also if you are paying them cash in hand, do you really think it will be declared to the tax man? Edited February 5, 2013 by jell36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) You're not paying for the time, you're paying for the knowledge to do the job. Also there's nothing worse than people supplying their own kit, as not only do you lose your profit on the materials but also it tends to be any old crap and invariably bits missing which you then have to waste time with. They also have to pay for their own insurance which isn't cheap any more, plus all those lovely taxes that PAYE folks tend to forget that small businesses as well as Starbucks have to pay. £300 to give up half of a weekend seems more than fair to me. I wouldn't do it for less than that, my free time is more important to me. And that my friend is why this country is in the state it is!!! The average punter works all week takes home £350 a week and trades won't work for less than £300 a day? Also the guy who took the £90 from me for the hours work had another job to do for a family member, cleaning and sealing a roof then supplying and fitting PVC facia and guttering. But unfortunately he received a call an hour ago cancelling the job, hope his £90 lasts him all week now! And by the way, all the materials used in my home are top quality! Edited February 5, 2013 by stuarty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbitstew Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) £300 to give up half of a weekend seems more than fair to me. I wouldn't do it for less than that, my free time is more important to me. How much you value your own time is a big factor really. I do all my own DIY on the house & mechanics. In my current house, when I bought it, i booked 2 weeks off work and stripped the house down. Redecorated every room, plastering, plumbed and fitted new bathroom, shower, toilet, did downstairs loo, flooring in most of the rooms, tiled floors in some rooms. Boarded loft out, painted & rewired the garage. Worked on it from 7am till 11pm most days. Then spent another week getting home from work at 7pm and working until midnight finishing decorating off. On one hand you can say that i have "saved" a fortune in labour costs. My mate actually paid about £8k for his bathroom and it looks the same as the one i fitted myself which cost me more like £500. But on the other hand, if you think about how much money I lost in wages through having 2 weeks off, then id actually have been better off probably paying professionals to do the work instead! The main reason I do the work myself, like on my car, is that im a perfectionist, and having had so many bad experiences with mechanics and tradesmen, id rather do the job myself and know its been done properly. I did however get a sparky I know to fit a new consumer unit as he`s corgi approved and that cost me £300 for a days work incl the unit. He did have a good 3 hour round trip to get to mine however. I also paid for a mates mate to fit a new boiler which cost me about £600 in labour for him to spend 3 days doing that. So, all in all I felt those were fair prices. Its certainly worth shopping about though and getting different prices. I was quoted upto £5k for a new boiler to be fitted, the average price being about £2500 in the end. Whereas I actually had it done for £1100 incl a £500 boiler. My mate was saying if they didnt really want the work they would quote some mad silly high price so the person wouldnt employ them, but very often the customer would say "yes okay then"!!! EDIT: I actually had a plasterer come out to quote me to skim 2 walls in my living room - each wall about 13ft long. They quoted me £350 for 4 hours work. I went to Wickes, bought a back of plaster, some PVA and a trowel and did it myself. Total cost was £30 or something. Id never plasterered before, but soon got the hang of it and did a really good job. I figured if i couldnt do it, id just call them up, but if i could do it, then i`ll be saving myself £320. Edited February 5, 2013 by rabbitstew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidnightRacer Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I think the £300 for the laminate wasnt too bad, we could argue that one either way but given it took 7 hours I wouldnt say that was extorsionate, just expensive. That said the transformation to your house would be great so it would be worth paying for a good job. What does really get my goat are the 20 minute jobs that are charged at excessive rates because it includes a "call out" charge. I'm offering you the business so why should I pay you just to turn up! it basically comes back to what ekona says about paying for the apparent knowledge... in my case it was paying the bloke £80 to disconnect 2 gas pipes that took 10 minutes to do, not because I didnt know how to but because I'm not allowed to! He also spent about 20 minutes bullshitting me about how great he was and how he did other stuff too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 And that my friend is why this country is in the state it is!!! The average punter works all week takes home £350 a week and trades won't work for less than £300 a day? Okay, let me re-phrase it a bit: If you were offered £40 to work one day extra a week, would you? It's all down to what you earn and what you need to earn that decides whether or not you'd charge high for a weekend work, I guess. Percentages, if you will. Why should I work for peanuts at the weekend if I don't need to? Why should anyone? Also, everyone always thinks that all the materials they choose are top quality. They're usually wrong. I'm sure that's not the case with you of course, just a generalisation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 What does really get my goat are the 20 minute jobs that are charged at excessive rates because it includes a "call out" charge. I'm offering you the business so why should I pay you just to turn up! Most businesses need to set a minimum charge to cover themselves for the jobs that either turn into a nightmare or the ones that get cancelled or you **** up on and lose out. It's about trying to make sure you cover yourself for losses elsewhere in the business. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 £300 to give up half of a weekend seems more than fair to me. I wouldn't do it for less than that, my free time is more important to me. How much you value your own time is a big factor really. I do all my own DIY on the house & mechanics. In my current house, when I bought it, i booked 2 weeks off work and stripped the house down. Redecorated every room, plastering, plumbed and fitted new bathroom, shower, toilet, did downstairs loo, flooring in most of the rooms, tiled floors in some rooms. Boarded loft out, painted & rewired the garage. Worked on it from 7am till 11pm most days. Then spent another week getting home from work at 7pm and working until midnight finishing decorating off. On one hand you can say that i have "saved" a fortune in labour costs. My mate actually paid about £8k for his bathroom and it looks the same as the one i fitted myself which cost me more like £500. But on the other hand, if you think about how much money I lost in wages through having 2 weeks off, then id actually have been better off probably paying professionals to do the work instead! The main reason I do the work myself, like on my car, is that im a perfectionist, and having had so many bad experiences with mechanics and tradesmen, id rather do the job myself and know its been done properly. I did however get a sparky I know to fit a new consumer unit as he`s corgi approved and that cost me £300 for a days work incl the unit. He did have a good 3 hour round trip to get to mine however. I also paid for a mates mate to fit a new boiler which cost me about £600 in labour for him to spend 3 days doing that. So, all in all I felt those were fair prices. Its certainly worth shopping about though and getting different prices. I was quoted upto £5k for a new boiler to be fitted, the average price being about £2500 in the end. Whereas I actually had it done for £1100 incl a £500 boiler. My mate was saying if they didnt really want the work they would quote some mad silly high price so the person wouldnt employ them, but very often the customer would say "yes okay then"!!! EDIT: I actually had a plasterer come out to quote me to skim 2 walls in my living room - each wall about 13ft long. They quoted me £350 for 4 hours work. I went to Wickes, bought a back of plaster, some PVA and a trowel and did it myself. Total cost was £30 or something. Id never plasterered before, but soon got the hang of it and did a really good job. I figured if i couldnt do it, id just call them up, but if i could do it, then i`ll be saving myself £320. If your mate paid £8k for his bathroom and you fitted a similar one yourself for £500 and did all the other jobs in your home in 2-3 weeks, you must have some wage if you would have been cheaper getting someone in to do it all for you. Rather than taking 3 weeks off your work to do it yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhackyWill Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Unfortunatly it a "rip off" society we live in, and Banks and Insurance Companies are the biggest villans. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 And that my friend is why this country is in the state it is!!! The average punter works all week takes home £350 a week and trades won't work for less than £300 a day? Okay, let me re-phrase it a bit: If you were offered £40 to work one day extra a week, would you? It's all down to what you earn and what you need to earn that decides whether or not you'd charge high for a weekend work, I guess. Percentages, if you will. Why should I work for peanuts at the weekend if I don't need to? Why should anyone? Also, everyone always thinks that all the materials they choose are top quality. They're usually wrong. I'm sure that's not the case with you of course, just a generalisation. I'm sure most folk who who earn £350 a week would do an extra shift for £70 (£350/ 5 days). Not £40!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 You're not paying for the time, you're paying for the knowledge to do the job. Also there's nothing worse than people supplying their own kit, as not only do you lose your profit on the materials but also it tends to be any old crap and invariably bits missing which you then have to waste time with. They also have to pay for their own insurance which isn't cheap any more, plus all those lovely taxes that PAYE folks tend to forget that small businesses as well as Starbucks have to pay. £300 to give up half of a weekend seems more than fair to me. I wouldn't do it for less than that, my free time is more important to me. And that my friend is why this country is in the state it is!!! The average punter works all week takes home £350 a week and trades won't work for less than £300 a day? Also the guy who took the £90 from me for the hours work had another job to do for a family member, cleaning and sealing a roof then supplying and fitting PVC facia and guttering. But unfortunately he received a call an hour ago cancelling the job, hope his £90 lasts him all week now! And by the way, all the materials used in my home are top quality! Mate, I think you need to appreciate that you made the post and therefore others are entitled to their opinions. You need to open your mind to the fact that there are other factors involved here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jell36 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 And that my friend is why this country is in the state it is!!! The average punter works all week takes home £350 a week and trades won't work for less than £300 a day? Okay, let me re-phrase it a bit: If you were offered £40 to work one day extra a week, would you? It's all down to what you earn and what you need to earn that decides whether or not you'd charge high for a weekend work, I guess. Percentages, if you will. Why should I work for peanuts at the weekend if I don't need to? Why should anyone? Also, everyone always thinks that all the materials they choose are top quality. They're usually wrong. I'm sure that's not the case with you of course, just a generalisation. I wouldn't work on a day off for less than I earned on a normal work day unless it was for a friend but then I wouldn't charge them more either, I would just say I wasn't interested (too honest for my own good hence I'm not a business man). For the materials I agree with you to a point, if a trades man is sourcing his own materials he wont go for the best and most expensive but also he wont go for the cheapest rubbish he can find unless he has used it before and knows that it wont make a difference to the job. E.g. my dad would never source an IKEA kitchen and he hates fitting them (poor quality, not very sturdy generally, can be bits missing) but at the same time he would not source the most expensive, hardwood kitch units he could find unless he was specifically told to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 What does really get my goat are the 20 minute jobs that are charged at excessive rates because it includes a "call out" charge. I'm offering you the business so why should I pay you just to turn up! Most businesses need to set a minimum charge to cover themselves for the jobs that either turn into a nightmare or the ones that get cancelled or you **** up on and lose out. It's about trying to make sure you cover yourself for losses elsewhere in the business. Exactly!! Most people don't understand business and that's why so many go bust that start up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jell36 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 What does really get my goat are the 20 minute jobs that are charged at excessive rates because it includes a "call out" charge. I'm offering you the business so why should I pay you just to turn up! Most businesses need to set a minimum charge to cover themselves for the jobs that either turn into a nightmare or the ones that get cancelled or you **** up on and lose out. It's about trying to make sure you cover yourself for losses elsewhere in the business. Exactly!! Most people don't understand business and that's why so many go bust that start up. but the OP was not reffering to a business as such, he was reffering to one man bands or at least I think he was. I have no issue with call out charges, not for the same reaosns as Ekona but because it takes time to travel and the customer may not proceed with the work and so that time/cost needs to be covered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leonk Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Get a FIXED price from someone recommended and if you're not happy with the price don't employ them. Simples. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 You're not paying for the time, you're paying for the knowledge to do the job. Also there's nothing worse than people supplying their own kit, as not only do you lose your profit on the materials but also it tends to be any old crap and invariably bits missing which you then have to waste time with. They also have to pay for their own insurance which isn't cheap any more, plus all those lovely taxes that PAYE folks tend to forget that small businesses as well as Starbucks have to pay. £300 to give up half of a weekend seems more than fair to me. I wouldn't do it for less than that, my free time is more important to me. And that my friend is why this country is in the state it is!!! The average punter works all week takes home £350 a week and trades won't work for less than £300 a day? Also the guy who took the £90 from me for the hours work had another job to do for a family member, cleaning and sealing a roof then supplying and fitting PVC facia and guttering. But unfortunately he received a call an hour ago cancelling the job, hope his £90 lasts him all week now! And by the way, all the materials used in my home are top quality! Mate, I think you need to appreciate that you made the post and therefore others are entitled to their opinions. You need to open your mind to the fact that there are other factors involved here. I appreciate everyone's opinion, but that's my opinion of Ekona's opinion. Also in my particular situation there are no other factors. Example, guy turns up at my house, works at a moderate pace for 7 hours, charges £300, puts it in his pocket, pays no tax or in, walks home, the end. Most of the work I have had done is exactly like that. Also I'm not comparing my situation to someone who has employed a large company with all sorts of overheads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) I'm sure most folk who who earn £350 a week would do an extra shift for £70 (£350/ 5 days). Not £40!! Okay, assuming you're on £350 p/w would you do an extra shift at the weekend for £70 then? On what I earn a week, and I wouldn't work a 6th day for the same amount pro rata. As I said, my spare time is more valuable than work time. Work to live, not live to work. That doesn't mean I don't do the graft when required, but it does mean that I do get to enjoy the time I have off. Edited February 5, 2013 by Ekona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 What does really get my goat are the 20 minute jobs that are charged at excessive rates because it includes a "call out" charge. I'm offering you the business so why should I pay you just to turn up! Most businesses need to set a minimum charge to cover themselves for the jobs that either turn into a nightmare or the ones that get cancelled or you **** up on and lose out. It's about trying to make sure you cover yourself for losses elsewhere in the business. Exactly!! Most people don't understand business and that's why so many go bust that start up. but the OP was not reffering to a business as such, he was reffering to one man bands or at least I think he was. I have no issue with call out charges, not for the same reaosns as Ekona but because it takes time to travel and the customer may not proceed with the work and so that time/cost needs to be covered. It's still being 'in business' and the principles still apply. You're not paying for the time, you're paying for the knowledge to do the job. Also there's nothing worse than people supplying their own kit, as not only do you lose your profit on the materials but also it tends to be any old crap and invariably bits missing which you then have to waste time with. They also have to pay for their own insurance which isn't cheap any more, plus all those lovely taxes that PAYE folks tend to forget that small businesses as well as Starbucks have to pay. £300 to give up half of a weekend seems more than fair to me. I wouldn't do it for less than that, my free time is more important to me. And that my friend is why this country is in the state it is!!! The average punter works all week takes home £350 a week and trades won't work for less than £300 a day? Also the guy who took the £90 from me for the hours work had another job to do for a family member, cleaning and sealing a roof then supplying and fitting PVC facia and guttering. But unfortunately he received a call an hour ago cancelling the job, hope his £90 lasts him all week now! And by the way, all the materials used in my home are top quality! Mate, I think you need to appreciate that you made the post and therefore others are entitled to their opinions. You need to open your mind to the fact that there are other factors involved here. I appreciate everyone's opinion, but that's my opinion of Ekona's opinion. Also in my particular situation there are no other factors. Example, guy turns up at my house, works at a moderate pace for 7 hours, charges £300, puts it in his pocket, pays no tax or in, walks home, the end. Most of the work I have had done is exactly like that. Also I'm not comparing my situation to someone who has employed a large company with all sorts of overheads. There are still overheads/other costs to consider i.e unpaid holidays, unpaid sick. I just wonder if you feel that you got ripped off by not looking round for prices and feel this is the only way to get some form of retribution? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 I think the point I'm trying to make in this thread is that I'm sick and tired of listening to friends and family of these tradesmen complaining that poor wee Johnnie the self employed joiner has no work. And that how they wish he had a job like mine where he had a steady wage. Then I think, I need some work done, I'll give poor wee Johnnie some work. Then the dick comes to your house and charges me £300 for a days work, when there's folk at my work bursting there ass to take home £350 for a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Same principle as all MPs are greedy, all multinationals are evil, and all lawyers are robbers. All a stereotype. Well, apart from the lawyers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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