spursmaddave Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 But surely that's because we all understand real market supply and demand? +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 But surely that's because we all understand real market supply and demand? +1 +2 its not rocket science. go on AT set parameters for as close to own car as possible. look at what comes up snd prices your own somewhere in the middle. .... what actually happens is people do the first stage, see how much cash the car has dropped through depreciation, sh1t themselves, and then come on here for reassurance from the club that it isn't true. then get upset when someone tells them that yes your car is now worth feck all. and they go off in a strop because the car hadn't increased in value like they thought it would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simundo-Z Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Let's face it, it was a daft idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Let's face it, it was a daft idea. yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarnie Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 yup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4RE Leather Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Anyway this forum has a different take on it.... F I had a £1 for every 'whats my Zed worth £3!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dblock Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Let's face it, it was a daft idea. I wouldn't say a daft idea just one that wouldn't work ATM. Also I personally think forum cars are worth more than non forum cars as enthusiasts usually take better care of their cares. Also what happened to the make sure your car has only ever been filled with 99ron and all that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-monster Posted December 29, 2012 Author Share Posted December 29, 2012 Pice fixing is not daft and does happen everywhere. Look at petrol, look at the cost of DSLR cameras, look at the cost of iPads, apple products and pretty much anything. I think, in the uk, were too easily guided by what things like Parkers and Glasses guide will tell us a car is worth in a monetary value and we don't say no, we just go with it. I'm not just talking about cars, mind, it's all around us, think of examples where you're outraged by the price of something but you're too busy to do something about it. The number of forum member that will work on their own cars, and not go and see a dealer/mech as its cheaper and they feel they get just as much value if not better value from doing it themselves is quite clear. The only reason we couldn't enact something like this is hyper-pluralism or that there are too many cars around with owners looking to sell at perceived market value as they need a sale. I agree at this stage perhaps it's not doable just yet, but that's not to say it shan't be in a few years time or if we could organise the owners, as a previous reply pointed out. Clio V6s in France fetch as much as 30k, here you're lucky for 13k, so says my best buddy who's contemplating selling there. 350z is a definite future classic. It's undeniable. Of course I would say "this isn't a bizarre thread" as I'm the OP, but is it the case you would happily accept depreciation, even if with some long term planning and organisation you might be able to avoid it quite so severely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Forum cars are better looked after than non forum cars? Possibly true, but not in a number of cases. A lot of enthusiastic owners are older people who car not a jot for online forums and have never used them. Plenty of people who sign up to forums as well with the only intention to use the For Sale section. As for the examples above... Petrol - for your car you need to put in high octane petrol - there are just a small number of suppliers - the product is pretty much standardised across brands - there are few if no alternatives, and this is key as it allows an element of price fixing - for cars however there are always alternatives and this is a massive difference. You need petrol for you car to go, you do not need a Zed to own a car. This is not a good example and in fact argues against your point. iPads, first to market as a mass produced tablet (there had been some attempts by lesser brands previously but none of note). They charged a premium as they were the first mass produced tablet, look at the price of new iPads now, much lower than when they were first launched as they are in a competitive market, just like a Zed. When there are alternatives that are just as good or better, you cannot charge a premium price and again you cannot fix a high price as you simply will not sell. Its all been done to death, Keynesian theory is a nice place to start, teaches the basics of equilibrium and the rules around supply and demand and the possibility of price fixing - for instance price fixing requires 100% information, high demand, no alternatives and total collaboration of sellers. An example to encompass all this is such: -All the sellers know how many buyers there are, where they are, and what their price elasticity is -There are no alternatives to the Zed -All the sellers behave as one organisation In this car market, there are too many alternatives and more importantly you cannot guarantee that the sellers will not at any point drop the price of their cars to sell if it doesnt sell at the price agreed across the forum consortium. Whereas something like Petrol, it does fulfill some of these rules more thoroughly and to some extent price fixing can happen. What you are talking about is rarity which also has desirability. This will push up prices but not because of price fixing but because of the rules around rarity and desirability which is something no single group of sellers can really dictate. If you try and push the price up beyond the price dictated by our old friend supply and demand the price will reduce the number of buyers and selling will become difficult, in which case sellers will reduce prices and your price fixing fails. I think I have said my piece now...it is a bizarre thread, you are talking about breaking all the natural rules of trading that have been in place for thousands of years. Despite all my ranting above the key problem you have is that there will always be alternatives, in a few cases, better alternatives to the Zed. You will get some buyers who want a Zed and nothing else, but not enough to sustain the artificially high price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 petrol is different you cant drive to work with out petrol, but you can go buy a different car. and with apple and DSLR's not everyone has one because either its of no interest or refuse to pay the perceived premium. Glasses and parkers have been way off recently, but I think they are more designed for the commercial buyer not the private buyer. but people use them as they are a good guide to prices. not the bible, but a guide. perceived market value is market value that's the point, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay, not what the owner thinks its worth. only time you can dictate price is if its a sellers market, and its not with the zed. as supply out stripes demand. and will do for many years to come. and people will walk away if you over price something. as I mentioned above. there were lots of cars for sale on thr R32 club which hd been up for over 18 months as no one was willing to pay the over inflated prices for a golf. same reason people won't pay over the odds for a Nissan (no matter how good the car is) The zeds popularity is its undoing it sold loads. people think its rare but its surprisingly common you only have to look at the sales figures and that's not including the imports brought over as well. as for the zed being a future classic, i'm not so sure. defo a future cult car, but will it be a classic, its too early to tell and the car to young. its only 9 years old. you've got another 20 odd years before you'll start to see if it becomes a real classic. as for depreciation, most of the members on here wouldn't know what depreciation is. as they bought thecars recently and pretty cheaply. go speak to the guys who paid the original £30k price tag, or those who went through the 2k a year price drop at the start of the economic crisis. as for sports car ownership I've had a few and would expect to loose roughly about 1k a year in ownership depreciation. its what sports cars do. especially if they are common. you think that's bad. I bought a 10 year old xkr where the previous 3 owners had lost the best part of 70k in 5 years. now that's depreciation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Jags are notorious for depreciating, makes them a fab used car purchase though! The engine and amount of kit you get for the money is way above the cost. I think the Zed has a look about it which makes it potentially a future classic, it has aged very well in the 9 years its been around, much better than say a Boxster or TT. However, there are plenty out there and whether they have the desirability of say an older Jag or Lotus remains to be seen, after all its still a mass produced Nissan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 the xkr are starting to show signs of a trend reverssl, they have bottomed out and at nearly 18 years old (1995 first relesse year)is getting close to the 20/25 year age. still got snother 25 years to see if it will be a vintage classic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4RE Leather Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 But surely that's because we all understand real market supply and demand? +1 +2 its not rocket science. go on AT set parameters for as close to own car as possible. look at what comes up snd prices your own somewhere in the middle. .... what actually happens is people do the first stage, see how much cash the car has dropped through depreciation, sh1t themselves, and then come on here for reassurance from the club that it isn't true. then get upset when someone tells them that yes your car is now worth feck all. and they go off in a strop because the car hadn't increased in value like they thought it would. Who has done that then! Oh yes I know one lol. ooppsss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-monster Posted December 29, 2012 Author Share Posted December 29, 2012 I've clearly started this conversation about 30 years too early! Interesting point about the XKR, same might be said about the 911SC, they've suddenly become desirable after Octane and Urban Outlaw and Drive said some good things about them, all pushing prices up. I'm actually really excited to see what the results will be in 30 years time when all the modern cars are turbo charged or hybrid powered. Yes, cult classic is probably a better description, and it's looks are definitely better the boxsters, TTs of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Sticking with the XKR as its what i know. there are tell tales that the price will go up. for instsnce partsare usually easy to get and cheap generally. as lots of cars in the breakers yard, but recently certain parts have started to goup in price as they re becoming harder to get. and tnis is the same with new parts as well. other great thing is they rust to buggery, so they are being scrapped quickly as lots are at a point where they have been bought cheaply and not maintained. people are starting to hold onto them and aim to keep them in good nick. I'm so confident that the prices will go up over the next 5-10 years that I'm planning on keeping it for a while and invest cash into the car bringing to back up to standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dblock Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Usually it goes New, first 3 years heavy deprecation, next 3 years still fairly high, next 3 not much, it will soon bottom out on price and then start to rise slowly as they become more rare or appreciated. Why are civics worth so much. Even old non vtec ones are fetching good money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronzee Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Its a Nissan, there are lots of them, and people pay what's its worth, not what a forum dictates. You can price it for 30k if you like, but there are so many not on the club, that people will just buy else where. TVR are a rarer brand, carry more prestige, no longer exisit, are more exotic and collectable. the down side of jap cars is they built them in vast numbers, and at a cheaper price than competitors. great when they are new, but you have to wait a hell of a lot longer for them to become collectable and go up in price. Lexus are an expensive Toyota (produced in Japan) and apparently they are prestigious and they are also dime a dozen, well they are over here, so you can artificially raise the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Usually it goes New, first 3 years heavy deprecation, next 3 years still fairly high, next 3 not much, it will soon bottom out on price and then start to rise slowly as they become more rare or appreciated. Why are civics worth so much. Even old non vtec ones are fetching good money. Just bear in mind that there is a hidden economy around buying and selling cars years on due to inflation, you could buy a car for 10k then sell it for £12k in ten years time but you would have made a loss. Also any associated costs such as storage you otherwise wouldn't have had will have to build in. But what is being described above, lets be clear, is also not price fixing. It is rarity and desirability which translate as rarity = small supply and desirability = high demand which will push up prices in line with market forces but not above their natural level ie a level below the proposed price fix. If it went above that demand would fall as there are alternatives and supply would be left with unsold cars which in turn would mean supply dropping prices ie equilibrium. See, isn't economics so lovely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dblock Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 A good point about inflation. But with the civics there is loads of them like loads. A nsx I understand supply demand and desirability but anything small good on fuel seems to shot up in price. Micras have gone up in price! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Its a Nissan, there are lots of them, and people pay what's its worth, not what a forum dictates. You can price it for 30k if you like, but there are so many not on the club, that people will just buy else where. TVR are a rarer brand, carry more prestige, no longer exisit, are more exotic and collectable. the down side of jap cars is they built them in vast numbers, and at a cheaper price than competitors. great when they are new, but you have to wait a hell of a lot longer for them to become collectable and go up in price. Lexus are an expensive Toyota (produced in Japan) and apparently they are prestigious and they are also dime a dozen, well they are over here, so you can artificially raise the price. I don't get what this has to do with the price of coffee. yes its an upmarket Toyota, better parts, better materials etc, but then you pay more for it. but there common because they are popular, and they are cheap in comparison to german and brit rivals as that was the aim, I wouldn't say lexus is anything special and why they aren't worth much 2nd hand. but as I said above whats that got to do with this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 A good point about inflation. But with the civics there is loads of them like loads. A nsx I understand supply demand and desirability but anything small good on fuel seems to shot up in price. Micras have gone up in price! Outside influences such as increases in the cost of ownership and fuel has begun to push people into cheaper and more reliable cars. So, demand for these cars increases, there is also the effect that people that own the cars are less likely to sell so less supply, over demand is a market force which results in a higher price therefore it may well be possible for the situation of the civics or micras you mention can result in increased prices. However, this is market forces and supply and demand in play and not price fixing. Price fixing is something that is very rare and incredibly difficult to achieve for the reasons that have been highlighted in the thread so far. It is also counter productive to a successful market place (ie what if you sold your Zed at an artificial fixed high price and the car you wanted next was also fixed above the market rate?) and is why there exists monopolies commissions to ensure that no single organisation controls the majority of demand in a consumer market because that is one of the requirements for price fixing to exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 there is only one monopoly I know of and that's the royal mail. but there are plenty of cartels hat fix pricing, for instance the oil barons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glrnet Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 And what about the monopolies commission? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dblock Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 A good point about inflation. But with the civics there is loads of them like loads. A nsx I understand supply demand and desirability but anything small good on fuel seems to shot up in price. Micras have gone up in price! Outside influences such as increases in the cost of ownership and fuel has begun to push people into cheaper and more reliable cars. So, demand for these cars increases, there is also the effect that people that own the cars are less likely to sell so less supply, over demand is a market force which results in a higher price therefore it may well be possible for the situation of the civics or micras you mention can result in increased prices. However, this is market forces and supply and demand in play and not price fixing. Price fixing is something that is very rare and incredibly difficult to achieve for the reasons that have been highlighted in the thread so far. It is also counter productive to a successful market place (ie what if you sold your Zed at an artificial fixed high price and the car you wanted next was also fixed above the market rate?) and is why there exists monopolies commissions to ensure that no single organisation controls the majority of demand in a consumer market because that is one of the requirements for price fixing to exist. Agreed. Maybe fixing was the wrong word maybe price manipulation as that sounds evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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