neo Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18921492 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragus Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Saw this on the news too! Mental and happening all too often. The UK had Dunblane (I was in Dunblane on the day as I went to school there and witnessed quite closely the aftermath so I am perhaps biased) and that was enough for us as a society to ban handguns. Americans have had Columbine, Virginia Tech and now this. How many times more does this have to happen before they amend their outdated constitution so that nut cases don't have the right to own handguns. I understand some people will still be able to get ahold of handguns but surely it would become far more difficult. Being able to buy ammo in Walmart and getting free guns with a bank account are just bonkers concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxi-glasgow Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 But you would think if everyone has the right to have firearms that other people in the theatre would be armed and be able to fight back rather than being shot as they flee. Although odds on that most people thought it was a publicity stunt to coincide with the film....absolutely sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulletMagnet Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Remember, it's America...where even a dumb person can buy a firearm Police revised down the death toll from 14 earlier. They said about 50 people had been shot, including the deceased. If they hadn't been shot, how would they have deceased? Good detective skills there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyBoy Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Saw this on the news too! Mental and happening all too often. The UK had Dunblane (I was in Dunblane on the day as I went to school there and witnessed quite closely the aftermath so I am perhaps biased) and that was enough for us as a society to ban handguns. Americans have had Columbine, Virginia Tech and now this. How many times more does this have to happen before they amend their outdated constitution so that nut cases don't have the right to own handguns. I understand some people will still be able to get ahold of handguns but surely it would become far more difficult. Being able to buy ammo in Walmart and getting free guns with a bank account are just bonkers concepts. Thing is I'm not sure banning them would really help. There's already a cooling-off period which means you can't have an argument with someone and then straight away go buy a gun to teach them a lesson, so stuff like this has to be pre-meditated. If someone wanted to do something like this so badly, there are already enough guns in circulation in the US to fuel a healthy black market for decades. They've dug themselves into a hole and I really can't see how then can get out of it at this point. The wierd thing is that some countries with even more liberal gun laws (like Finland and lots of other scandinavian countries for example) have rock bottom gun crime figures, there just seems to be something about the US culture that provokes these kinds of horrific events. Very sad. DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulletMagnet Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 ...there just seems to be something about the US culture that provokes these kinds of horrific events. Very sad. Yeah....they be a bunch of dumb people that watch too many action movies and think guns are cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 ...there just seems to be something about the US culture that provokes these kinds of horrific events. Very sad. Yeah....they be a bunch of dumb people that watch too many action movies and think guns are cool Stereotype much? Police revised down the death toll from 14 earlier. They said about 50 people had been shot, including the deceased. If they hadn't been shot, how would they have deceased? Good detective skills there... I believe there was a 'device' activated along with the shootings so that is how there Remember, it's America...where even a dumb person can buy a firearm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Sounds like Odeon over here have got the PR machine fired up (excuse the pun). It was saying on the radio that Odeon are gonna search all customers over the weekend going to see the film....sounds like shameless self promotion if you ask me! S. PS. not all Americans are gun nuts. When I was out there recently I saw a few bumper stickers saying "arms are for hugging". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricey Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Watch bowling for columbine. It's usual Michael moore bias but shows the difference between Americans with guns and Canadians with guns (if I remember the statistic Canadians have far more) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragus Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 The thing is yeah, not all Americans are dumb. However, why do so many of them fight for the right to have firearms because it is written on an old constitution? What purpose do they serve? If they are completely removed from the population (granted this will be difficult now), it far more likely there will be less occurrences of gun crime. And yes Danny, they might not be able to go out and buy one instantly but if they already have firearms at home then this isn't a problem for them. Also the three instances I mentioned were premeditated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSet Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 There are about 30 gun murders every day in America (less than one a week here) and many other accidental gun deaths too, so in the big scheme of things 12 deaths is no big deal to Americans. It wouldn't really matter if there were 300 gun deaths a day and a "Batman" massacre once a week, the vast majority of Americans consider that it's a price worth paying for their right to bear arms ....guns are just a way of life (and death) there. The gun lobby in The States is very powerful, any attempt by any government to tighten gun ownership up would be electoral suicide I'm afraid. While we will debate the merits of better gun control and shrug our shoulders, Americans will continue to bury their heads in the sand. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragus Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 There are about 30 gun murders every day in America (less than one a week here) and many other accidental gun deaths too, so in the big scheme of things 12 deaths is no big deal to Americans. It wouldn't really matter if there were 300 gun deaths a day and a "Batman" massacre once a week, the vast majority of Americans consider that it's a price worth paying for their right to bear arms ....guns are just a way of life (and death) there. The gun lobby in The States is very powerful, any attempt by any government to tighten gun ownership up would be electoral suicide I'm afraid. While we will debate the merits of better gun control and shrug our shoulders, Americans will continue to bury their heads in the sand. Pete Your are right! So I detract my previous statement - dumb Americans! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dblock Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Condolences to their families. Scary stuff, being shot for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Although a tragic event, I dont think a knee jerk reactioin affecting every person in the country is the right way to go. Thats what our governments would do. Too difficult to deal with the rogue element, so lets give everyone a kicking to make sure we kick the rogue element. Look at binge drinking and the recent law in Scotland. Too difficult to deal with the trouble makers, so lets have minimum pricing for Alcohol and kick everyone. The story about the increase in road deaths among young drivers - whats the answer? Lets look at the speed limits on rural roads... Negatively impact everyone just to make sure you cover the real targets that need eductaing or slowing down. Banning handguns in America would just never be feasible. There are so many millions of them in the hands of the public that it would take decades to collect and destroy them all - hundreds of thousands of them would end up in criminal hands, leaving the rest of the public with no way to defend themselves. In our country, only the most hardened of criminals will have a gun. In America, a shop lifter will have one. Far from solving the problem of allowing guns into the hands of the stupid element of society - trying to ban handguns in the US will ensure that ONLY the stupid and undesireable have them, which would be an even more dangerous situation than it is today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dblock Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Look at binge drinking and the recent law in Scotland. Too difficult to deal with the trouble makers, so lets have minimum pricing for Alcohol and kick everyone. Thats knee jerk? Its a massive problem up here TBH. Yes the problem was the trouble maker but asbos and anything else didnt work and they would reoffend. When you look at a bottle of frosty jacks or big beastie, mad dog 50/50, white lightning and the likes its to hammer these drinks. Alot of time and effort is taking to police the streets at this time of night. A&E is full at weekends. 90% of people I have called the police on where drunk. It costs Scotland millions and its a problem that needs to be tackled. Pricing it higher wont do much but the social attitude to drinking needs to change hence why they did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 The way to change the social attitude toward drinking, is not to make it needlessly more expensive for those who know how to behave. Its to make the punishments and repercussions for those that dont, worse. An ASBO is like a swimming badge, and has no stigma attached whatso ever - at least not a negative one. Making them dress in pink overalls and go litter picking would have more of an effect, but that would no doubt be against some European namby pamby rule somewhere. Just like in the US, removing guns from all people, just to tackle the idiot element is the easy knee jerk route imho. They need to be smarter if they want this to stop happening, but although gun crime is far more common in the US than it is in many other develped nations, they are a LONG way behind many other countries - South Africa, Mexico, Jamaica, Columbia, Brazil etc.. It is illegal to carry a knife in the UK, yet we still managed 4 knife murders a week in 2011, with over 32,500 knife crimes in the year. Outright banning something will not make the problem go away overnight. In 1996 (the year before the UK handgun laws were changed) there were a total of 3347 Handgun offences. In 2011 the number was 3105 - hardly a drastic reduction. Plus consider in years like 2003 it was over 5000. http://www.gun-control-network.org/A018.htm www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN01940.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spursmaddave Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 The thing with Anerica is only 20-30% are living the 'dream' and 10% are in prison. I agree about Bowling for Columbine and spoke to Doogyrev about guns the other day, the thin with Canada is a gun is for protection i.e. bears what do most Americans needs protecting against, apart from themselves and their neighbours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragus Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Look at binge drinking and the recent law in Scotland. Too difficult to deal with the trouble makers, so lets have minimum pricing for Alcohol and kick everyone. Thats knee jerk? Its a massive problem up here TBH. Yes the problem was the trouble maker but asbos and anything else didnt work and they would reoffend. When you look at a bottle of frosty jacks or big beastie, mad dog 50/50, white lightning and the likes its to hammer these drinks. Alot of time and effort is taking to police the streets at this time of night. A&E is full at weekends. 90% of people I have called the police on where drunk. It costs Scotland millions and its a problem that needs to be tackled. Pricing it higher wont do much but the social attitude to drinking needs to change hence why they did it. I agree that pricing it high is not going to solve the problem though - other drugs are already expensive but the type of people that have problems will steal and rob in order to buy the things they want. As for America - I am not saying it has to be a knee jerk reaction but how many more random mass shooting do they have to have before they realise that the average joe citizen does not need a handgun to live their life. They serve no purpose except to protect yourself but if nobody has them then this is not an issue. Yes, I appreciate it would take a long time to clear the streets of guns completely but it is a process that they need to start now in my opinion. I appreciate that there are many pig headed Americans that won't like the idea and it isn't as easy as I am making out. Another argument is that, they will always find guns - in the three instances I mentioned they seem to have been nerdy/bullied kids at school (not hardened criminals) and I wonder if they would have been in a set of circumstances where they were able to get a gun if our laws applied in the US? Ultimately, there are disturbed individuals (albeit a minority) that are willing to carry out such meaningless and horrendous attacks and how they get tot his mental state needs to be considered too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spursmaddave Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Imagine the London riots but with guns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSet Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 In our country, only the most hardened of criminals will have a gun. In America, a shop lifter will have one. That pretty well sums it up really. Americans I've spoken to know that if someone breaks into your house they'll be armed, because most householders are armed. Anyway, a fairly predictable wild west like reaction http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18980974 Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwantone Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 In one of my other hobbies, I've had lots of dealings with Americans. I've quizzed them about their gun laws. I've always found it surprising that not a single one of them has admitted to owning a gun or wanting one. The other area where the authorities fail to target the offenders is with speeding. I pass over countless speed humps every day. If an area has a speeding problem, surely the technology exists to stop it without using the shotgun approach on the law abiders. Mark my words, Ladies and Gentlemen, minimum pricing for alchohol will come to England soon. You law abiding citizens who enjoy a responsible drink in the comfort of your homes will pay the price for the bingers. Our politicians seem to lack vision. One other area where this approach happened was with "dangerous" dogs. In my experience, dogs are not naturally dangerous but can easily be made so by malicious owners and I don't think it matters that much what breed it is. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I think generalising Americans as Americans all wanting to own guns is somewhat misguided. Lots of Americans I know, who are office workers/city dwellers know guns can be bought, but all of them do not choose to buy one. I would guess however than if you went to the less urban populous you might find a more 'cowboy' gun culture going on. I once drove from Kallamazoo (BA training town!) to Chicago and stopped in a few tiny cut off towns and found some really weird stuff with regards to guns, sales and ownership that I never saw in Chicago. That said, I am dumbfounded by the sudden burst of gun purchasing in Aurora, even if those people owned guns the likelihood of them having the guns on them in the queue for Batman are pretty remote. On the matter of binge drinking prices, my local here in Richmond charges between £4.25 and £4.80 for a pint, thats a Fullers pub - pretty sure its already in action in some parts of England Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Whilst it's not a solution I do think that any premium charged should go directly into a fund to help victims/hospitals etc that have to deal with the side effects of social freedom. If this already happens then please forgive my ignorance, it's abundant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fodder Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 some interesting views in this thread. I often speak to my American colleagues about their gun laws and most own a gun. They see it as a right to protect themselves and their property and as Pete said the attitude is "if someones going to break into my property they are most likely going to be armed, so I'm going to be" Different states have different laws, I was having a beer with a few from different states last year and it was interesting to hear them discuss the differences, one state you had to conceal, the other that was a big no no. One of them (a stereotypical Texan) just couldnt believe the laws over here, when a Buckingham Palace he identified the model of the automatic weapon the police officer had (MP5) as well as the holographic sight. He then went on to say he was at a gun show recently and they were freely available to purchase, just had to complete the forms and wait for approval. I was speaking to him the other day about these shootings and he said "dont blame the tool, blame the user of the tool" which i think is pretty much the response of most "Americans" I deal with. On a side note, the Dallas office has a guard on the door where you have to "check" your weapons before entering and doing a days work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSet Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Just some figures, 511 Police officers were killed by guns alone in The U.S in the period 2000-2010. An astonishing 51 of those were killed by their own guns! In the U.K there was just one policeman and one policewoman killed by guns...one of the killers turned out to be an American on the run, and the other one was a gang of Somali asylum seekers. "dont blame the tool, blame the user of the tool" I was told something similar, "It's people that kill, not guns", it's a mantra they repeat. One of the problems is that many Americans, even some highly educated ones are very ignorant of what goes on outside of America. On one of my holidays in The States I was once asked "What language do you speak in England?". Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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