coldel Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Without banging my drum having done my own research on the subject and not gleaning it from the media or my own bitter experience, I can categorically state that a graduate going into market research (my current industry and by no means the best paid) gets more than if they started as a teacher - this is FACT. In my last job I was recruiting grads with two years experience and the pay levels were circa £32k-£35k which is not what a teacher will be on after two years fresh out of uni. Likewise, my level, director level with 15 years experience, lets just say the 'upper bracket' teacher salary for someone who has been in the teaching game 15 years with a degree is somewhat left in the dust of what I was earning. Anyways, thats all I am going to say on the subject, I wasn't trying to change anyones mind as some people will never change their mind regardless of what other opinions are put in front of them. All I wanted to bring to this debate was that its not as cut and dried as X times Y and this country is massively relying on people genuinely loving what they do in the public sector to forego a decent private sector salary. Lots of people jump on the bandwagon that the media puts in front of them and also believe that what unions say represent the majority of what public sector people think. I just wanted to redress that bloodymindedness somewhat. And on that, Im out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted June 23, 2012 Author Share Posted June 23, 2012 Without banging my drum having done my own research on the subject and not gleaning it from the media or my own bitter experience, I can categorically state that a graduate going into market research (my current industry and by no means the best paid) gets more than if they started as a teacher - this is FACT. In my last job I was recruiting grads with two years experience and the pay levels were circa £32k-£35k which is not what a teacher will be on after two years fresh out of uni. Likewise, my level, director level with 15 years experience, lets just say the 'upper bracket' teacher salary for someone who has been in the teaching game 15 years with a degree is somewhat left in the dust of what I was earning. And without banging my drum, thats comparing the qualifications of people and their earnings, not the jobs they are doing. Ask a graduate working in burger king what he earns, and what a graduate in local government earns. Totally different jobs, totally different pay. As before, a doctor could give up his job in the NHS and go dunk fries at KFC, but the Colonel isn't going to pay him £100k a year to splatter chicken with secret spices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 ...but you dont need a degree to dunk doughnuts...market research is an average pay private sector job, teaching is probably average if not higher paid public sector job...huhhh, give up, like I said, I am out, definitely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 so for comparisons sake you need to compare say a teacher in the public sector with say an instructor in the private sector? like a fitness instructor they can earn anywhere between £16k - £50k but you don't need a degree to do that there aren't many like for like comparisons with teachers so its not so easy to do. i suppose you could compare our admin staff but they aren't on the same pension we are and the pay is the same as private. i suppose if you look at medical professionals to be honest the same people work in both private and public, but from my understanding there is a lot more cash in the private sector i believe a civil pilot for virgin earn smore than a RAF pilot. there isn't really a private police force or fire service, and the only private army i can think of is mercenaries, but they earn alot more than the the average squaddie. i just get the feeling that no matter what is said your mind is made up; i agree that public sector requires some adjustment to pensions. but if you take into account my time spent in education and then compare it against say a doctor who only spent 1 more year in uni than i did but you add the teacher training on which is pretty much unpaid work. qualification time is around the same. yet their salaries are almost double and people don;t seem to mind them striking. i do my job becuase i enjoy it, i get alot of satisfaction from it and i like the job security for now and the future. i know what i signed up for and thats what i expect (within reason) at the end. people refer to the head teacher salary etc headteachers account for a very small percentage of teaching staff. not everyone does their full stint, infact in the 8 years i've been teaching i've only seen 4 teachers retire who've clocked up more than 30 years service. if we're hittign public sector pay and pensions why not look at the armed forces? no one wants to do that as its not going to make anyone popular. so much easier to hit the front line staff. if its going to be changes made it has to be done across the board that means everyone, mp's, armed forces, civil servants etc i'm just sick of being the easy target, gove seems to be at it every week. its one of the few professions that everyone has some experience of (being a student) so everyone feels they're able to tell me how to do my job. i don't walk into a barristers chambers and tell him what i think he should or should not be doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb1965 Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 To be fair (and I've had a few beers ).. I think you've lost the plot a bit. Quote: if we're hittign public sector pay and pensions why not look at the armed forces? no one wants to do that as its not going to make anyone popular. so much easier to hit the front line staff. if its going to be changes made it has to be done across the board that means everyone, mp's, armed forces, civil servants etc Unquote: It doesn't get much more front line than the armed forces, I'm guessing you aren't dodging bullets. Other sectors in the public area are affected, my wife being one of them (social worker) and she does a tough job. You are not being singled out. To balance things I work in the private sector and have had no pay rise in 5 years, my wife in the public sector has had one every year. 5 years ago I earned 6k more than her, now she is on the same as me (hurrah, retirement is closer). The fact is it's tough and has been tough for everyone, no one is immune...even teachers. You may love your job, but at the end of the day you work for a wage, we all do. If your job is a vocation then money is immaterial, ( I know that's cobblers we all have bils to pay). If the money or pension isn't enough then it's time to suck it up and decide where you want your life to go. I'm at that point and will probably go contracting, but that's a gamble, you have probably one of the most secure jobs in the country. My company may well be bust by the end of the year the way things are looking. Nothing personal I admire the job you do and couldn't do it myself, no dig intended but life is hard for everyone...hic...cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted June 23, 2012 Author Share Posted June 23, 2012 i just get the feeling that no matter what is said your mind is made up; i agree that public sector requires some adjustment to pensions. but if you take into account my time spent in education and then compare it against say a doctor who only spent 1 more year in uni than i did but you add the teacher training on which is pretty much unpaid work. qualification time is around the same. yet their salaries are almost double and people don;t seem to mind them striking. On the contrary, I think doctors have the least reason to strike of any public sector worker. They are downright taking the pi** in my opinion. They have adjusted over the years to working from private built surgeries, that the NHS pays "rent" on, which are actually in the doctors own private pension funds. Once the building is paid for, they build another, and so on. Doctors earnings have in some cases nearly trippled in recent times when you factor in these nice little schemes where the tax payers (and the rest of the public sector) are now shoveling millions into doctors private pensions. But they dont mention that when being quizzed by the press do they. And Ill probably spend more time, (and be listened to more) by a teacher at a parents evening than I will a GP - who will tell me to come back again if it gets any worse. For what its worth, I think teachers do a great job. I also think they are paid fairly - though they do need to understand that some reform is needed on the pension front. Not wiping it out all together, but for an ageing and growing population, the current schemes dont work. Front line staff are the easiest to kick by the government - but they will be the ones that rack up the largest proportion of the bill. They are making redundancies in the armed forces too - but for some reason its not made the front pages nearly as much as I thought it would Its making exact like for like comparisons that is the difficult bit as you say, but just using qualifications wont work either as the public sector has outsourced most of its low paid stuff (groundskeeping, cleaning etc) to private sector, skewing the figures again. No matter what we say here though, it wont change anything - we just have to make the best of the lot we have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 I feel for you Chesterfield. It would kill me to run a business in the UK. I'm not leaving this country in August for no reason you know. I am sure there are many public sector workers who work their butts off and deserve their current employment rights. However, there is a huge part of it that doesn't. I shall demonstrate: When I worked for the Post Office (TV Licensing, Bristol. 1989-2003), most people had about 10 days a year "sick" on top of their generous leave. Quite a few regularly swung 6 months (on full pay) with "stress". Of course when they returned to work they would be on reduced hours (but full pay) to make the transition easier to the pressure of answering letters and telephone calls. Many people claimed holiday back if they were sick on holiday. One legend had the same "sick" week every year for the time I worked there. He was a pigeon fancier and always went to Liverpool in August for a big race. I was once "sick" screwing my girlfiend in Paris for a week and a mate of mine was "sick" in Australia for a month! On top of that, flexi-time was self-administered "what time did I get in this morning Dave" "Oooh - 7:50 I think Captain" "Yes, you're right, I'll pop that in my time sheet". Lunch was subsidised and because the office was next to St Pauls, many an afternoon was spent stoned/pi**ed and even tripping whilst looking out the window. Shall I go on about the overtime? I think Chesterfield would explode if I told him it was up to 2.5 times, started at 16:00 and yes, was self-administered. What "some people" used to do was get "their" work in batches of 40 letters a day from the managers in the morning (taxing I know) either throw them in the bin or write back something that had no relation to what was being requested (so they'd write again to keep them in work) and then go straight on overtime at 4. Twenty years ago, a clerk could easily be pulling in over £20,000 a team leader £30,000 and a middle manager £40,000. No wonder the BBC sacked the Post Office from running the TV Licence scheme in 2003 and replaced them with Capita. Obviously my redundancy package reflected the years of hard toil I had put in. So much so that it paid for the deposit on the house I am currently sitting in. Now, where's this year's pension statement................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dblock Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Copied from another forum and not strictly relevant but its still true. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100... If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this... The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1. The sixth would pay £3. The seventh would pay £7.. The eighth would pay £12. The ninth would pay £18. The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59. So, that's what they decided to do.. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by £20". Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men? The paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share? They realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay. And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving). The sixth now paid £2 instead of £3 (33% saving). The seventh now paid £5 instead of £7 (28% saving). The eighth now paid £9 instead of £12 (25% saving). The ninth now paid £14 instead of £18 (22% saving). The tenth now paid £49 instead of £59 (16% saving). Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a pound out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, “but he got £10!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a pound too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!" "That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill! And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 To be fair (and I've had a few beers ).. I think you've lost the plot a bit. no you were right, i was getting grumpy and starting to ramble. had a nice chat with chesterfield Via PM we are both on similiar wave lenghts after all slightly off topic i found this interesting, this is the top 30 paid jobs of 2011; mix of both public and private http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/nov/25/highest-paid-jobs-uk-2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/nov/25/highest-paid-jobs-uk-2011 How does "IT strategy/planning professional" actually equate to "Analyst-programmers; computer programmers; software engineers; systems analysts; systems designers" IT professional fine but dont tar us with the strategy/planning brush, thats here IT usually falls apart! I'm in the 80% pct in my group so I cant complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavis Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Bloody hell even i'm on that list Also, doctors and bus drivers and firemen going on strike can f*ck the hell off. Doctors I almost get, bu the last two? Greedy bastards. Sorry to hijack Chris, wanted to get that off my chest though Looks like the first lot are the greedy bastards Dan http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news ... probe.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 Copied from another forum and not strictly relevant but its still true. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100....... ... The cheeky robbing bar stewards - posted back in March: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=59801 But I myself just changed the $ to £ to make it fit our country from an american post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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