European courts take another swipe at business.

[coldel]

OK so everyone works in the private sector and then there is a substandard education, health etc etc service as no one of any decent standard works public - which in turn no doubt everyone would in a heart beat complain about.

 

I spent a year in the civil service years ago and have seen gross wastage of people and money, in the same way I saw it in private also. But, when you look at careers like teaching, policing, health, actually it is something people want to do as a career which you cant really get in private sector - I am thinking of switching from private to public sector because in all honesty, I find my career in the private sector quite soulless and unfulfilling - the salary drop is going to be enormous and I will NEVER earn in public sector what I have earn't in the private sector.

 

The only way to solve the whole debate is that public sector pay comes into line with private sector pay for peoples experience, education and skill sets and then equalise pensions then there is no argument.

 

Personally, I still struggle with the whole pension thing, on the one hand you have to accept market conditions and its unaffordable but on the other it doesn't bode well for the country that we make careers like teaching are made less attractive, therefore less talented teachers, therefore poorer people coming through the system - the dangers of over reliance on simply talking numbers all the time is that you miss out the more subtle things.

[rtbiscuit]

Personally, I still struggle with the whole pension thing, on the one hand you have to accept market conditions and its unaffordable but on the other it doesn't bode well for the country that we make careers like teaching are made less attractive, therefore less talented teachers, therefore poorer people coming through the system - the dangers of over reliance on simply talking numbers all the time is that you miss out the more subtle things.

 

you hit the nail on the head, its what i wanted to say but just got frustrated

[Chesterfield]

Its strange though that its just the numbers that are used to justify strike action

 

As pay in the public sector is actually higher than in the private sector on average, then how do we equalise things? The pensions in the public sector are financially (and mathematically) impossible to sustain. So we cant "bring everyone up to the top" by increasing private pensions to match those of the public sector. Nor can we expect the public sector to swallow a drop of pensions down to the level of the private sector. So an impass arrises.

 

Even after the reforms, the public sector pensions are still hugely atractive compared to what can be achieved in the private sector without massive contributions. If you tot up the total benefits of public sector vs private sector in terms of money earnt while working vs money available for pension after working, then they will probably come out somewhere near the same. Though for those jobs in the public sector that pay above that of those in the private sector, the public sector are much much better off. Working in general administration in local government for example would net a very similar salary if not lower working in general administration in the private sector, but the pension will put the public sector post well ahead in terms of overall attractiveness.

 

I would agree that posts like teachers, firemen, police, nurses, doctors etc should still be attractive, but those people should not lose sight of just how vast the gap is in terms of post retiremet benefits between them and the average woring joe in the private sector.

 

Doctors striking over their pensions is utterly ridiculous in my opinion. Their wages have soared massively in the last few years, they have had private buildings constructed, owned by their own SIPP (Self Invested Pension Plan), they then rent these buildings back to the NHS, the rent going tax free into their pension, paying off the mortgage on the building at which point it is sold, the funds going into the pension pot, and another is constructed and the cycle continues. Doctors over recent years have been amassing private pensions worth litterally hundreds of thousands all courtesy of the NHS. And then they have the cheek to strike when their golden NHS pensions are lowered a bit.

[p40ulw]

i do realise if you own a buisness this is utter @*!#! but in the same breath if i was in a position to be abe to do this i would do it, maybe not all the time, but i would do it if i needed an extra day for a birthday or aniversary etc etc

[coldel]

...as I said, I want to move from Private to Public, and the salaries ARE worse in comparison. Its all good and well having an attractive pension, but I will have to live on a lower salary for the next 35 years than I could achieve in Private which will affect my ability to get a higher mortgage, support my baby as he grows and hell, even replace my ageing Zed!

 

I am going to try and make the switch over because I have made that decision to do something better with my life - I don't intend to strike ever as its against my principles. If you look at the numbers of people voting to strike, its always pretty low, the majority of the Public sector dont want to strike (usually about a 30% turnout).

 

As for the comment 'public sector pay on average is higher than private' unfortunately this is somewhat misguided and like a lot of the comments on here just lumping people together to come to a single conclusion. For instance, in the public sector there are a much higher percentage of jobs which are skilled (ie degree required) vs private sector, in fact if you look at those as a subset on average the public sector skilled jobs salaries are behind the private sector skilled jobs salaries. Also, the shifting make up of the jobs are completely different within each sector too, with a lot of the less skilled public jobs becoming privatised thus shifting lower salaried jobs from public to private to create the fact mentioned.

 

The important fact is that public sector, skilled, degree level roles are paid at a lower rate than private sector - this is what I mean by equalising pay based on Skills, Experience and Education - it is not simply a straight uplift applied across the board therefore the average pay of private vs public is irrelevant.

[sipar69]

It's interesting to read some of the anti public sector comments on here and see that the authors often don't seem to be arguing for things to be better for people in the private sector - just worse for the public sector. It's a bit like - "I have a bad time, so I want you to have one as well". Sad reflection on human nature really.

[choptop]

There is an old saying which holds true always in my book. If you do not like what you are being paid or the pension you have been given 'find another job'.

There may be those who say there are no jobs out there etc etc and why should they change their job.....................wake up and smell the roses! Good people who are prepared to work will always find work.

Ok, off my soap box now

[coldel]

Unfortunately if everyone followed that mantra, there would be no nurses, no teachers and the like.

 

Whenever I speak to teachers about their profession, they are so enthusiastic, they genuinely feel they make a difference and find it a really rewarding career personally, certainly moreso than in the private sector. What is sad, is that to date there has been a reliance on this behaviour to ensure that these careers are and stay filled vs actually rewarding people financially through a salary equivalent to the private sector.

 

Its true, in the private sector you can move around due to the vast number of employers, you can leave one company and join another in the same industry and get yourself a pay rise or take a sideways step into an entirely different role - but in the public sector, say teaching for instance, the salaries are generally identical from one school to the next across the industry.

[Chesterfield]

It's interesting to read some of the anti public sector comments on here and see that the authors often don't seem to be arguing for things to be better for people in the private sector - just worse for the public sector. It's a bit like - "I have a bad time, so I want you to have one as well". Sad reflection on human nature really.

 

Thats the typical union line of "we should get everyone up to the top, not bash everyone to the bottom".

 

I could easily introduce a pension scheme in my own company to match that of teachers or doctors. I could do it on Monday.Everyone would join it (and be nuts if they didn't).

 

I also know that after the first round of retirements, my company would be bankrupt.

 

Its not bashing the public sector just because they have better pensions. Is bashing them because they, or at least the unions can't see that if they don't change the schemes, the whole thong will fall like a house of cards. And they hold the country to ransom to retain schemes which are mathematically impossible to sustain.

[coldel]

It's interesting to read some of the anti public sector comments on here and see that the authors often don't seem to be arguing for things to be better for people in the private sector - just worse for the public sector. It's a bit like - "I have a bad time, so I want you to have one as well". Sad reflection on human nature really.

Its not bashing the public sector just because they have better pensions. Is bashing them because they, or at least the unions can't see that if they don't change the schemes, the whole thong will fall like a house of cards. And they hold the country to ransom to retain schemes which are mathematically impossible to sustain.

 

Key point here, a lot of the comments that are anti-public sector are actually reflecting the views of trade unionists, not actual public sector workers. For most strikes, if you look at the numbers, they usually only get a turn out of circa 35% of which about 75% want to strike which in the grand scheme of things isnt a big number.

[Chris`I]

Its not bashing the public sector just because they have better pensions. Is bashing them because they, or at least the unions can't see that if they don't change the schemes, the whole thong will fall like a house of cards. And they hold the country to ransom to retain schemes which are mathematically impossible to sustain.

This and only this IMO is what I bash the public sector for. They do a grand job and should be paid more, but you cant have pensions that simply cant pay for themselves, its simple maths. Given the number of teachers that strike over this, I am quite shocked they are teaching our children. I dont tar them all with the same brush - Rich for instance see's the sence in it for example. But I have friends that are teachers and have only been for a few years and they get all high and mighty saying their hard earned pensions are being robbed. They arent, they are being safe guarded, if it wasnt cut back then when you came to retire the pot would be long gone then you'd have nothing! Better to have a sustainable but smaller pension than one that the current generation of retireees are going to drain dry long before you retire!

[coldel]

TBH, I would prefer salaries were in line and pensions completely cut, although that would probably cost the government more than it does now...

[Ekona]

Key point here, a lot of the comments that are anti-public sector are actually reflecting the views of trade unionists, not actual public sector workers. For most strikes, if you look at the numbers, they usually only get a turn out of circa 35% of which about 75% want to strike which in the grand scheme of things isnt a big number.

So then why don't only 25% of people actually go on strike, but the rest carry on working? Oh yeah, it's because they'll get called names and shunned by their work colleagues who can't understand that folks are free to make their own choices, so they sink down to their level and become sheep.

 

Tell me I'm wrong.

[Chesterfield]

TBH, I would prefer salaries were in line and pensions completely cut, although that would probably cost the government more than it does now...

 

Public sector pay is already HIGHER than private sector, and has been for a while.

[rtbiscuit]

TBH, I would prefer salaries were in line and pensions completely cut, although that would probably cost the government more than it does now...

 

Public sector pay is already HIGHER than private sector, and has been for a while.

 

then why am i £15k - £20k less pay a year than the counter parts from my degree course who i trained with at uni?

 

thats the same education background, same degree, leaving at the same time, but some went private sector others like me went public. thats a like for like comparison.

 

as for pensions, i doubt they'll be anything left in 40 years time so i'll get to the end of nearly 50 years teaching; so i'll spend 50 years being under paid and under valued and get nothing at the end.

 

i'm already making alternative pension plans just in case.

[Dblock]

35% of how ever million of members they have. I'm not saying this is right but in India the second biggest employer in the world Indian railways dealt with a strike. They just fired everyone.

 

Coldel are you looking at it from an employers view though.

 

Public sector jobs should still be something people want to do but personally if I wasn't getting paid enough. I wouldn't strike I would just look for a better paid job?

[Chesterfield]

TBH, I would prefer salaries were in line and pensions completely cut, although that would probably cost the government more than it does now...

 

Public sector pay is already HIGHER than private sector, and has been for a while.

 

then why am i £15k - £20k less pay a year than the counter parts from my degree course who i trained with at uni?

 

How much per year would those friends have to invest each year in a private pension to get the same? £20/25k?

 

There will be individual examples of people earning more for the same qualifications in the private sector, but the fact is that on the whole public sector pay is already higher than private.

[Spud]

The whole system in the public sector needs to change to save the economy but it would need to be for the new starters.

To simply change the terms and conditions of people who live to that standard now will cause financial crisis for some as is already being seen.If you live to your means as many do then to cut wages and increase pension contributions will only make the economy worse with more people spending less and defaulting on mortgages which happened in the USA.

As for the original topic it is time this country pulled out completley from the European court system as it is dragging us down in so many ways not only employment laws but also criminal law, how many times have we seen victims of crime let down because criminals have more rights then they do? There is no financial benefit from being part of this anymore, we are simply towing the political line and keeping the less stable countries afloat apart from the Germans who will as we have get dragged down too eventually.

I also agree that most public sector workers are genuine hard workers who deserve the benefits they joined for but there needs to be some easier way of cutting out the chaff who abuse the system. To do this and allow the genuine staff to do the job would save more and encourage productivity. We need to make it harder to play the system rather than bring in more ways to do it!!!!!!

[sipar69]

It's interesting to read some of the anti public sector comments on here and see that the authors often don't seem to be arguing for things to be better for people in the private sector - just worse for the public sector. It's a bit like - "I have a bad time, so I want you to have one as well". Sad reflection on human nature really.

 

Thats the typical union line of "we should get everyone up to the top, not bash everyone to the bottom".

 

I could easily introduce a pension scheme in my own company to match that of teachers or doctors. I could do it on Monday.Everyone would join it (and be nuts if they didn't).

 

I also know that after the first round of retirements, my company would be bankrupt.

 

Its not bashing the public sector just because they have better pensions. Is bashing them because they, or at least the unions can't see that if they don't change the schemes, the whole thong will fall like a house of cards. And they hold the country to ransom to retain schemes which are mathematically impossible to sustain.

 

Just as a matter of interest, I'm not in a union. I can only speak from personal experience, but where I work very few people support strikes - I'd say about 1 in 5. And I would dispute the notion of the country being "held to ransom". I think most people strike to show they disagree with something, but how often do strikes change anything? Very rarely.

[Stew]

The whole system in the public sector needs to change to save the economy but it would need to be for the new starters.

To simply change the terms and conditions of people who live to that standard now will cause financial crisis for some as is already being seen.If you live to your means as many do then to cut wages and increase pension contributions will only make the economy worse with more people spending less and defaulting on mortgages which happened in the USA.

As for the original topic it is time this country pulled out completley from the European court system as it is dragging us down in so many ways not only employment laws but also criminal law, how many times have we seen victims of crime let down because criminals have more rights then they do? There is no financial benefit from being part of this anymore, we are simply towing the political line and keeping the less stable countries afloat apart from the Germans who will as we have get dragged down too eventually.

I also agree that most public sector workers are genuine hard workers who deserve the benefits they joined for but there needs to be some easier way of cutting out the chaff who abuse the system. To do this and allow the genuine staff to do the job would save more and encourage productivity. We need to make it harder to play the system rather than bring in more ways to do it!!!!!!

 

This is good.

[rtbiscuit]

As for the original topic it is time this country pulled out completley from the European court system as it is dragging us down in so many ways not only employment laws but also criminal law, how many times have we seen victims of crime let down because criminals have more rights then they do? There is no financial benefit from being part of this anymore, we are simply towing the political line and keeping the less stable countries afloat apart from the Germans who will as we have get dragged down too eventually.

 

how many times did the hook handed preacher manage to avoid deportation becuase he played the euro court game.

 

i'm all for being part of a free trade market but why on gods good earth are we the only ones who seem to follow the euro courts rules to the letter.

 

somebody please take us out of it

[Chesterfield]

i'm all for being part of a free trade market but why on gods good earth are we the only ones who seem to follow the euro courts rules to the letter.

 

somebody please take us out of it

 

This +10000

[Spud]

The only problem I can see is that we would have to bring in some kind of constitution to adhere to and with the madness of our political system it may be just a re worded European system. It is about time we thought about our own health, security and finances and let every other country do the same. Bail outs and loans we will never re coup are needless!

[coldel]

TBH, I would prefer salaries were in line and pensions completely cut, although that would probably cost the government more than it does now...

 

Public sector pay is already HIGHER than private sector, and has been for a while.

 

Sorry pal, but this statement is fundamentally wrong. Refer to what I posted earlier - there are more skilled (ie degree level) jobs in public sector which makes the overall average higher than private, but you are not comparing like for like - if you compare like for like, taking a subset of each sector with identical education/experience/skills it is proven conclusively public sector is lower paid than private, this is fact and the main argument that the pensions debate centres around.

[Chesterfield]

TBH, I would prefer salaries were in line and pensions completely cut, although that would probably cost the government more than it does now...

 

Public sector pay is already HIGHER than private sector, and has been for a while.

 

Sorry pal, but this statement is fundamentally wrong. Refer to what I posted earlier - there are more skilled (ie degree level) jobs in public sector which makes the overall average higher than private, but you are not comparing like for like - if you compare like for like, taking a subset of each sector with identical education/experience/skills it is proven conclusively public sector is lower paid than private, this is fact and the main argument that the pensions debate centres around.

 

Without wishing to drag it out. This is what the unions and publications like the Guardian would purport, but then go on to provide Zero examples of comparable jobs between the two.

 

Is a graduate within the private sector paid more than that same graduate in the public sector. Probably yes. But thats not comparing jobs, thats comparing people. A salary is linked to a job, not the qualifications the person has that is doing the job. A doctor could give up being a doctor, but he wont be paid £100k a year for flipping burgers down the local Mc D's just because he has a PhD.

 

RE teacher - 25K, Vicar £22k

Basic administrator at local council, £16k Basic administrator in the private sector £14k

 

You could say Senior council cheif, £100k. Senior Executive at a Bank £20M, however, the jobs are hardly comparable.

 

The most difficult part is comparing actual jobs not the people. You cant simply say that because a person in the private sector with a degree and certain set of qualifications is paid £X, then a person with those same qualifications in the public sector should be paid the same amount. Its the job that has the pay associated to it.

 

So unfortunately as much as the public sector want to keep banging the drum that they are not paid as well as the private sector. They are. Whats more, they say they go into the job as its what they aspire to do, and the sense of contributing to society, but as soon as the pensions are reformed, all of a sudden thats the reason they went into the job. What of those in the private sector that lost final salary pension schemes overnight - were they outside picketing knowing that they were on a job for life, or did they just get on with it and accept that change was needed.

 

Thats the thing in the private sector - if you dont adapt to financial change, you go bust. You are unemployed and looking for another job. If the public sector doesn't adapt to change, they jump up and down, stamp their feet and ultimately somebody else picks up the tab. There is no going bust doomsday scenario. But what do I care, Im just one of those who picks up the tab and has the finger pointed at them saying "you should pay your fair share" - Ill continue doing my thing, and the public sector will continue doing theirs. Im confident of my sums and know that they add up long term. Are the public sector, pal?