Crashed my Z!! Badly!! Advice please?

[docwra]

I cant see youve got a case either, if the tyres were incorrectly inflated you wouldnt be looking to go legal, its along the same lines. You as the driver have a responsibility to check the car is right ......... and Im afraid I dont think youve got a very strong argument anyway. If it punted you off the road within 5 minutes of picking it up[ thats one thing, halfway through a trackday is another entirely

 

Its not like they put your brakes in back to front, I think people are getting a little hysterical here.

[trackpig]

I feel for the OP.

 

I have often thought how will I take it if/when I crash on track.

 

I do feel it’s down to the driver to do some basic checks on the car before driving on track. It’s no good saying "the car is looked after by a garage so it should be ok". If you are not comfortable checking condition and correct fitment of tyres and brakes- learn how to.

 

I am concerned at the pic of the vred tyres. I have abused tyres for hours on end on an old airfield and never had a tyre go like that.

 

I can imagine what would be said on the forum if it was a falken 452 or such tyre that had failed in that fashion. Vred's not all they are "cracked" up to be?

 

OP- don’t go down the legal route with the garage. Price up the costs of getting your car back on the road with second hand parts. Get a price to see what the car is worth as it is now. Work out which situation is best and makes most financial sense - sell as is or repairing the car.

 

Good luck.

[Bakes100]

Consider this guys, we are all saying the wheels have been put on the wrong way, I get the feeling its the tyres that have been put on the wrong wheels.

 

That front left tyre appears more 'bulgy' than the rear left with the same size tyre. Maybe because the front is an 8j with a 245/45 tyre and the rear is an 8.5j with the same tyre.

 

Also neither of the rear wheels are curbed but the front left wheel is curbed slightly (most commonly curbed wheel).

 

I would have thought he would have far more grounds for complaint if the tyres were on the wrong wheels.

 

Also a 225/45 on an 8.5j may cause it to produce more heat on track

[Neilp]

Steve, PLEASE don't listen to the above and give up! Seek legal advice, if they say it's a non-starter then fine, but don't rely on people with no legal experience on a forum to put you off even trying, it would be worth checking if you get free legal advice through your bank account or credit cards etc. This seriously sounds like negligence to me and could have resulted in a much worse situation, imagine if this had happened on the road and you hit a child on a pavement!

 

After that, I'd probably go to the garage and *calmly* point the problem out to the manager and see what he says, I'd be interested to know Mark@Abbey's opinion on this, if Abbey did something like that I would have thought they'd be absolutely devastated! Then possible go the Ricey route for the fun of it.

What you're missing is the fact that it is very hard to put the blame onto the garage. It may be negligence but it's all down to evidence. What's to say this chap never swapped the wheels himself at home in the time between the garage doing it and the track session? I will bet my last penny that this is this is what the garage will respond with. At the end of the day it's what you can prove in a court.

 

I personally think its worth putting the pressure on them to see what you can get but in terms of a court hearing for a claim It will be very stressful, expensive and I don't think the chap would win.

 

If the garage have put the wrong tyre on the wrong rim then you may have a good argument

[rtbiscuit]

The highway code states

 

ensure your vehicle is legal and roadworthy

 

Law RTA 1988 sect 4 part 97 (can be seen below)

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_069855

 

i think it would be difficult to part blame out on a third party when its the vehicle owners responsibility to check the road worthyness of their own vehicle. you would be more than within your rights if it had been spotted to go back and get them to swap them round etc. but to put the accident down to them for an accident that happened on private property and not covered by the normal road rules etc is nigh on impossible.

 

This seriously sounds like negligence to me and could have resulted in a much worse situation, imagine if this had happened on the road and you hit a child on a pavement!

 

if he was going that fast through a residential area i'd be more concerned about his driving.

 

yes the wheels were not on right, but the tyres would have been well within tolerances for normal driving they were new, same brand all round and plenty of tread depth.

 

this is starting to feel a bit like "where theres blame theres a claim"

 

there have been mistakes made by the driver and the fitter. but being able to legally pin responsibility on a third party will be nigh on impossible.

 

sorry to the OP that they are going through this, i hope they get an easy and low cost solution to the scenario. if you wish to pursue legal action i would go to the CAB (citizens advice) first

[HaydnH]

What you're missing is the fact that it is very hard to put the blame onto the garage.

 

I agree completely, but that wouldn't stop me at least having a conversation with legal, especially if I got free legal advice through a credit card or work scheme. Just make sure they're not taking the case on just to take your money.

 

 

if he was going that fast through a residential area i'd be more concerned about his driving.

 

In the photo above it looks like the tyre has failed due to the problem, what if the OP had been on the track day and partially damaged the tyre and it was only when he was on his way home that it gave way, maybe in a 40 zone with kids around or maybe on the motorway @ 70? It's feasible that this could have been a lot worse.

[trackpig]

In the photo above it looks like the tyre has failed due to the problem, what if the OP had been on the track day and partially damaged the tyre and it was only when he was on his way home that it gave way, maybe in a 40 zone with kids around or maybe on the motorway @ 70? It's feasible that this could have been a lot worse.

 

This is the type of arguement that gets things banned.

Why not have a law that states no one shall take part in a trackday and drive home on the same rubber.

 

 

Accidents happen. Learn from it. Move on.

[Stew]

In the photo above it looks like the tyre has failed due to the problem

 

 

Hmmmmmm, do you have something to back this up?

 

I'm no expert on these things so would be interested to see it. We could put it up as a bit of a warning on the forum.

[HaydnH]

This is the type of arguement that gets things banned.

Why not have a law that states no one shall take part in a trackday and drive home on the same rubber.

 

It might not have happened on the track, what if the OP was having a spirited drive at the Wales meet and this happened going through a 40 zone?

 

 

Hmmmmmm, do you have something to back this up?

 

I'm no expert on these things so would be interested to see it. We could put it up as a bit of a warning on the forum.

 

I can't get this link to go straight to the post for some reason: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=62291&p=894906

 

But page 4 of this thread, about 5 posts down by RisingPower pointing out the tyre wall coming away from the rest of the tyre. The way the accident happened (car over-steering clockwise) it would have pushed that tyre wall *in to* the tyre, not ripping it off. (Unless that photo has been mirrored of course).

[SteveJJH]

Well I called the garage yesterday before I knew about the tyre mix up and asked them to have a look and confirm which tyre had had a problem, they've not got back to me yet. I might hear over there this afternoon and see what the situation is. I'm not one of those people who starts rubbing their neck after an accident "oh, I think I have whiplash", and the folks at the garage are genuine people. I also realise I should have noticed something was wrong but I do feel a bit like none of this would have happened if the tyres were fitted correctly

[Stew]

Hmmmmmm, do you have something to back this up?

 

I'm no expert on these things so would be interested to see it. We could put it up as a bit of a warning on the forum.

 

I can't get this link to go straight to the post for some reason: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=62291&p=894906

 

But page 4 of this thread, about 5 posts down by RisingPower pointing out the tyre wall coming away from the rest of the tyre. The way the accident happened (car over-steering clockwise) it would have pushed that tyre wall *in to* the tyre, not ripping it off. (Unless that photo has been mirrored of course).

 

 

 

I saw the vid and the pictures. I was Talking about this statement specifically.

 

In the photo above it looks like the tyre has failed due to the problem

 

 

I can see that potentially an issue could be caused by having the wheels and tyres in the wrong location however I was looking for some engineering evidence that the tyre failed due to this.

An explanation would help me understand it.

[trackpig]

This is the type of arguement that gets things banned.

Why not have a law that states no one shall take part in a trackday and drive home on the same rubber.

 

It might not have happened on the track, what if the OP was having a spirited drive at the Wales meet and this happened going through a 40 zone?

 

 

 

What if someone split water on that road? What if a cat ran out? What if he was struck by lightning?

 

What if the driver had bumped up a kerb while parking and damaged the tyre and then it went on to have a blow out?

What should we do? Get rid of kurbs? Check our tyres every 100 meters?

 

Accidents happen, learn from it, move on.

[docwra]

In the photo above it looks like the tyre has failed due to the problem, what if the OP had been on the track day and partially damaged the tyre and it was only when he was on his way home that it gave way, maybe in a 40 zone with kids around or maybe on the motorway @ 70? It's feasible that this could have been a lot worse.

 

You know, its comments like this that make this place look a bit strange to the casual observer. The tyre hasnt failed because its been fitted to a different sized rim, its ridiculous to suggest it was.

 

And no doubt going to get flamed for this, but even a 245 on one side and a 225 on the other cant cause an accident - it can unbalance the car but its still the driver that puts it into a wall. Mechanical failure of a component or oil on the track can be blamed, but even then no-one is going to pay you out because you stoved it up, differing grip levels from side to side isnt going anywhere in a court.

[SteveJJH]

I'd like to point out I hate the claim culture, and I won't be running that route unless things turn very nasty. As many have pointed out it doesn't look like I've got much of a case anyway. I might take a tape measure with me this afternoon and see what width tyres are fitted to what width rims though

 

I think a lot of this is me looking at a very expensive bill and clutching at straws

[Darren-B]

Hey Steve, sorry to see that you have had an accident,

 

I don`t want to rub salt into the wound but even though the tyres/ wheels may have been mismatched, you still run the morning session on the tarmac. After watching the video my opinion is that the accident was mainly down to driver error. When the back got a bit lose you kept your foot in it (Greekman styleee) with not enough opposite lock to compensate, then before you knew it you had run out of road & Game Over. At the end of the day it`s only a car, it`s replaceable & no-one was hurt.

 

Hope you can get it sorted

[Neilp]

Docwra I think what people are getting at is that due to the way the diff and traction control work that its possible that the heat the tyre was subjected to may have been extreme due to the tyres not running correctly across the axle causing malfunction of the diff and ESP

[rtbiscuit]

In the photo above it looks like the tyre has failed due to the problem, what if the OP had been on the track day and partially damaged the tyre and it was only when he was on his way home that it gave way, maybe in a 40 zone with kids around or maybe on the motorway @ 70? It's feasible that this could have been a lot worse.

 

You know, its comments like this that make this place look a bit strange to the casual observer. The tyre hasnt failed because its been fitted to a different sized rim, its ridiculous to suggest it was.

 

And no doubt going to get flamed for this, but even a 245 on one side and a 225 on the other cant cause an accident - it can unbalance the car but its still the driver that puts it into a wall. Mechanical failure of a component or oil on the track can be blamed, but even then no-one is going to pay you out because you stoved it up, differing grip levels from side to side isnt going anywhere in a court.

 

i have to agree with Doc on this

[docwra]

Docwra I think what people are getting at is that due to the way the diff and traction control work that its possible that the heat the tyre was subjected to may have been extreme due to the tyres not running correctly across the axle causing malfunction of the diff and ESP

 

ESP was off, and how much heat do you think I put into the tyres when drifting? Not had any blowouts as yet .......

 

This theory might be right but I know my approach to it would be "@*!# happens" and not try to go all CSI on trying to find something to blame. I think Steve knows Im not pointing any fingers here but this place can come across as overly nannying sometimes, the "what if" factor seems to scare people on here a lot more than it does on the other boards I use

[Ricey]

I feel like I've entered an alternate universe or something?!?!?!?

 

Are you lot SERIOUSLY telling me that a garage has fitted a critical part of a car capable of 155mph.......specifically the part that attaches it to the road...........incorrectly (lets assume they have), you've consequently stuffed it and you couldn't quite put your finger on why - your telling me you would just sit there and spank your own dangle about it?!?!?

 

This is exactly why I get fecked off with the world and its bloody incompetence:

- Garage = Experts

- Steve = Non-expert

 

- Law = check your car is road worthy

- Steves car = road worthy (otherwise how could you dirve with a space saver on).

- Steves Car fit for a track = No because some bell fitted the wheels wrong

 

Steve has discharged his duty you cannot reasonably expect him to check the work that he's pay several hundred quid undoubtely for an expert to do!

 

If a surgeon wired my balls to my heart instead of my pecker its not my fecking place to be ramming an endoscope down my dingle to check!!!!!!!!!

 

Experts have a duty of care to perform adequately for services rendered..........assuming Steveo hasn't been fiddling with his wheels then they have failed catastrophically.

 

Nyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Neilp]

Docwra I think what people are getting at is that due to the way the diff and traction control work that its possible that the heat the tyre was subjected to may have been extreme due to the tyres not running correctly across the axle causing malfunction of the diff and ESP

 

ESP was off, and how much heat do you think I put into the tyres when drifting? Not had any blowouts as yet .......

 

This theory might be right but I know my approach to it would be "@*!# happens" and not try to go all CSI on trying to find something to blame. I think Steve knows Im not pointing any fingers here but this place can come across as overly nannying sometimes, the "what if" factor seems to scare people on here a lot more than it does on the other boards I use

The difference is that when drifting the heat and forces are applied different. Traction is already broken and the car is already sideways.

 

I don't know what relevance you never having a blowout drifting has to this. I seen two cars written off at japfest drifting due to blowouts.

 

The fact is even with ESP off the car still controls the braking/slip. It interferes alot when off. VLSD would also be exerting force on the tyre due to one spinning faster than the other due to rolling radius being different across the axle. All these things have an obvious contribution to the cars handling.

[docwra]

LOL, good post Ricey. Dont agree with much of it, but good nonetheless

[RisingPower]

You know, its comments like this that make this place look a bit strange to the casual observer. The tyre hasnt failed because its been fitted to a different sized rim, its ridiculous to suggest it was.

 

And no doubt going to get flamed for this, but even a 245 on one side and a 225 on the other cant cause an accident - it can unbalance the car but its still the driver that puts it into a wall. Mechanical failure of a component or oil on the track can be blamed, but even then no-one is going to pay you out because you stoved it up, differing grip levels from side to side isnt going anywhere in a court.

 

I think for me, it's the fact that it would've failed an MOT if pulled over and that it may violate section 13 here:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54

 

I can't honestly say I would check the tyre sizes when leaving a garage to check that they haven't swapped them over (ok, so it would be impossible not to notice in my case, but when I had the 18"s it would have been possible). If I'd then have been pulled over by the rozzers for something else and they'd noticed, is it right to blame the driver?

 

That been said, I think that you should be checking your car after every session briefly, tyre pressures, brief glance over fluids etc just to make sure you've duly checked anything that you can.

 

I'd be seeing what the garage would have to say before doing anything though, but if they have misfitted wheels/tyres, maybe it should reflect poorly on them. Let's say they changed something which wasn't visible, such as springs, or didn't fit some suspension parts properly, would you really be checking those?

[HaydnH]

however I was looking for some engineering evidence that the tyre failed due to this.

An explanation would help me understand it.

 

Docwra I think what people are getting at is that due to the way the diff and traction control work that its possible that the heat the tyre was subjected to may have been extreme due to the tyres not running correctly across the axle causing malfunction of the diff and ESP

 

It's something like this I'm thinking of, remember the y value in "x/y Rz" is a percentage of the width of the tyre, so the rolling radius of the 350z wheels/tyres is about 1cm different between the fronts and rears on rays with standard tyre sizes. Swapping both fronts and rears may be ok, but across an axle? I'm no expert, but surely that would be enough to cause extra use of the dif at the very least?

 

If a surgeon wired my balls to my heart instead of my pecker its not my fecking place to be ramming an endoscope down my dingle to check!!!!!!!!!

 

Nice analogy and well said.

[Chris`I]

The fact still stands that the OP still did a full morning on the wrong setup. If it was that wrong it would have happened much sooner. I'd hazzard a guess it did contribute to it but not with the emphasis some people are putting on it.

 

Sure talk to CAB or any free legal you get, it cant hurt. Approach the garage and see if theres any good will to be had. But dont expect to win if you try and take it to court. The OP seems to have the right idea, so I think we are better focusing on how to fix his car than who to chase to get it fixed for free.

[Chris`I]

Also, anyone else remember that Martin W ran his wheels mismatched for god knows how long until another member spotted it at TGM Sport on day? He never came off the road in a ball of flames, so I'm guessing the car can cope with it. And that was on an FI'd Zed with considerably more power than stock.