Why are NHS hospitals so poo?

[gangzoom]

The value provided by the NHS is 2nd to none, I have seen my patients get emergency open heart surgery within 24hrs of presentations (including echo/angiogram+plasty/intra aortic ballon pump). At the same time I'm also embarrassed to tell my patient some times simple/routine procedures are delayed because of the system is simply run over capacity 99% of the time. The bed occupancy in the NHS is roughly 82% in the Netherlands the number is 62% for the same population density.

 

Put it simply the reason NHS hospitals seem over filled is because they are!! However the fact any one can walk in off the street and receive world class care (yes world class, my local hospital streams live procedures world wide to teach other centres how to perform procedures, including those in America.) is simply amazing. And if you've been lucky enough to live in the UK all you life you will never appreciate how amazing that is.

 

The American simply is widely recognised by all those i the health care profession as the most inefficient. Hence why in NewYork people are dying from untreated TB, a disease which is usually reserved for the 3rd world (WHO data estimates US health care costs at person at $6700 compared to $3300 in the UK including all private costs).

 

The NHS isn't perfect, but nor is BUPA. As far as am aware no BUPA hospital in the UK can deal with any form of critical/intensive care (essentially means they cannot manage unstable/the most ill patients), and the doctors/nurses working in BUPA are the same ones your finding working in the NHS hospital. So the health care been delivered isn't different at all.

 

For us who can afford it a privatised system is great (especially for health care professionals because our pay will go up), but ultimately it means those people who cannot health care will be left to die on the street. But I suppose the same goes for housing/benefits in general...

[Ricey]

The value provided by the NHS is 2nd to none, I have seen my patients get emergency open heart surgery within 24hrs of presentations (including echo/angiogram+plasty/intra aortic ballon pump). At the same time I'm also embarrassed to tell my patient some times simple/routine procedures are delayed because of the system is simply run over capacity 99% of the time. The bed occupancy in the NHS is roughly 82% in the Netherlands the number is 62% for the same population density.

 

Put it simply the reason NHS hospitals seem over filled is because they are!! However the fact any one can walk in off the street and receive world class care (yes world class, my local hospital streams live procedures world wide to teach other centres how to perform procedures, including those in America.) is simply amazing. And if you've been lucky enough to live in the UK all you life you will never appreciate how amazing that is.

 

The American simply is widely recognised by all those i the health care profession as the most inefficient. Hence why in NewYork people are dying from untreated TB, a disease which is usually reserved for the 3rd world (WHO data estimates US health care costs at person at $6700 compared to $3300 in the UK including all private costs).

 

The NHS isn't perfect, but nor is BUPA. As far as am aware no BUPA hospital in the UK can deal with any form of critical/intensive care (essentially means they cannot manage unstable/the most ill patients), and the doctors/nurses working in BUPA are the same ones your finding working in the NHS hospital. So the health care been delivered isn't different at all.

 

For us who can afford it a privatised system is great (especially for health care professionals because our pay will go up), but ultimately it means those people who cannot health care will be left to die on the street. But I suppose the same goes for housing/benefits in general...

 

I get the impression that as you say the critical/emergency side if the NHS is invaluable and perhaps unrivalled. I'm talking more about the disorganisation (I missed my meds twice whilst in care as they had been discontinued on the system), 11 hours waiting for a bed because I was not an emergency, patient with mrsa being put on the ward until they realised he was positive (a fact which they knew a week before when he was only in for a day but didn't bother to advise him), floors with blood spots, bits of blood stained bandages lying around on the floors, half of the nursing staff wiping my cannula before administering drugs and the others not, not a single nurse using the alcohol gels before or after dealing with patients, nurse sneezing into her hand then cracking on with her day, left the cannula in my good arm in until it nearly got infected (I had to ask them to take it out). Shower rooms stained with what could only be blood or faeces.

 

There is absolutely no doubt that every last person in that hospital was busting their arse but it just felt to me as an observer that it really wouldn't take much to tip it over into total chaos.

 

I guess its more the 'peripherals' of care where it seemed like a mess.

 

Food was better than I expected though

[spursmaddave]

Simple, too many people living longer. Whenever I have been in hospital or visited anyone the wards are just full to the rafters with old people (sorry to some on here) who need more looking after than most so it drains resources.

[ds2000]

^ while you are correct Dave, there are also a massive number of those old people who've paid taxes all their lives; on the flip side a whole lot of idiots draining resources with alcoholic injuries / abuse who don't work, never have and no intention of starting that are effectively a double drain on the country (benefits and care) - but lets not open that can of worms

[Ricey]

^ while you are correct Dave, there are also a massive number of those old people who've paid taxes all their lives; on the flip side a whole lot of idiots draining resources with alcoholic injuries / abuse who don't work, never have and no intention of starting that are effectively a double drain on the country (benefits and care) - but lets not open that can of worms

 

Double whammy by comparison to 30 years ago I guess......older population and a load of scrotters.

[Ekona]

Whenever I have been in hospital or visited anyone the wards are just full to the rafters with old people (sorry to some on here)

S'okay mate, we all know it's not your fault you're ancient

 

 

It's a true point though. Not a huge amount we can do about it, except divert every single penny we give to developing world countries and look after our own for a change. Just my 2p.

[leonk]

Surely the basic issue boils down to the fact that the NHS gets it's cash from the governement, whether it's terrible or not. We may all think it's awful (seems like most on here do at least) but we pay for it anyway because if we don't then we go to prison (where we'd probably get better health care). Private healthcare is better principally because it has to be to survive. The management of the NHS can get away with running the most inefficient and badly organised healthcare system in western Europe because they get paid regardless and therefore have little incentive to do otherwise.

 

I'd like to clarify I am firmly in favour of the principles of the NHS, just not the way it requires 4 people on 100K salaries to decide what colour the toilet seats need to be.

 

DB

 

+1 As an example a member of my family is a nurse at our local Hospital. A couple of years ago they spent nearly £120k on consultants fees to establish what could be done to limit infections like MRSA etc. £120k later they concluded what any staff nurse could tell you for free, that more and better cleaners were required. Problem was they couldn't afford them because they had blown the budget on consultants fees!!! This is just one of the many examples of total waste of yours and my money.

[cowie]

Can only comment personally as my daughter was rushed in 2 weeks ago and had a 5 day stay with an emergency op during that, all i have is massive respect and admiration for the staff who work tirelessly round the clock on largely understaffed wards. One thing that really pi**ed me off was the parking, £1 an hour for the "unknowing" but as i found out if you pay £7.50 you get a weeks parking , There is no where that informs you of this anywhere on the hospital grounds,was purely by chance i overheard a converstaion. so as far as i'm concerned, nurses, consultants and surgeons (in my experience) are exceptional people who are totally let down by the cocks who run these health authorities.

[garetgax]

personally anyone who puts a thread up titled like this one isnt going to be on my christmas list. Michelle is a deputy sister on a trauma ward and all she gets is abuse, by the media, on here now, by patients, patients staff, crisitcism from above not enough staff, no overtime although the amount of hours shes put in over and above what shes paid including attending meetings on her days off. Its about time people understood that our health service is free and is the envy of most of the world. It makes my blood boil that its moan moan moan about the NHS. Im not saying its perfect but how about advertising all the good stuff it does and see if it outweighs the bad.....from a personal point of view 10 years ago my orbital floor was smashed by a kind persons foot (was assaulted) and was in danger of not being able to see properly again. Consultant took a piece of bone from my skull and rebuilt my eye socket and I can see perfectly he saved my whole life from work to play etc. Hes a hero in my eyes so sorry I dont agree with "why is the NHS poo?".

 

Rant over.

 

Id add as well "germany,france,spain etc are better" no there not...France isnt a free system and costs the average person (who can afford it 3 times what we pay. I know my parents lived in France for 20 years. German system similar, Spain has crippling debts, has a significantly lower population than us but Id be very surprised if their hospitals are any better or worse than ours.

[rtbiscuit]

to be honest no one doubts the hard work of the frontline staff; i think all our issues lead back to the inept management and leadership of the NHS. too many consultants and managers not enough doctors and nurses. and the staff that are there are then worked to the bone.

 

the NHS tried to implement a huge computing system a while back; they spent an absolute fortuen on it, and it doesn;t work, so it was scrapped.

 

its wastage from non frontline staff that is the issue.

[choptop]

Have to say that the NHS, with all it's problems and funding issues, offers a good standard of healthcare generally. Yes, from time to time it could be better, but where else in the world would you get this sort of care for eveyone across the board? The answer is no-where.

The problem is with so many Private Healthcare Companies is when you come to claim for a condition, especially if you are an outpatient and not an inpatient, you are only covered for a minimal amount and have to top up with your own money.

I have to say that the NHS Treatment Centres which have opened up around the UK, which are run by private companies, do a great job if you need a new hip or a cataract done. You have to remember though they will not take anyone with a serious problem.

I have worked in the NHS and sold to the NHS for nearly 30 years. It has it's problems. One thing though the staff are great and work very hard to do the best they can with what they have. If anyone recieves poor service/care in hopsital complain. Each hospital has a patient representative which you can speak with. Better still have a polite and constructive word with your Ward Sister. They will do everything they can to help .

[garetgax]

RT it was a consultant who put me back together, consultants are frontline staff as well:p but i do understand what your saying etc. The thing is all the media hype and people saying the NHS is rubbish means more audits, processes, paperwork and politicians spouting stuff the majority of the public want to hear and its mainly because of unrealistic expectations from the public. Half the relatives and patients on shells ward seem to think its a hotel and think the can demand whatever they like as "its our NHS and we are entitled etc" they also think the staff are just robots and not human beings. What is expected from a junior to middle management nurse is quite frankly ridiculous baring in mind the average nurse earns roughly 25-28 grand and the worst thing is because upper management are scared of the audit results and other stuff like it they just say get on with it.

[DannyBoy]

RT it was a consultant who put me back together, consultants are frontline staff as well but i do understand what your saying etc. The thing is all the media hype and people saying the NHS is rubbish means more audits, processes, paperwork and politicians spouting stuff the majority of the public want to hear and its mainly because of unrealistic expectations from the public. Half the relatives and patients on shells ward seem to think its a hotel and think the can demand whatever they like as "its our NHS and we are entitled etc" they also think the staff are just robots and not human beings. What is expected from a junior to middle management nurse is quite frankly ridiculous baring in mind the average nurse earns roughly 25-28 grand and the worst thing is because upper management are scared of the audit results and other stuff like it they just say get on with it.

 

I don't think he meant a consultant in that sense, but the overpaid bureaucrats who get paid ludicrous amounts to come up with obvious or unworkable solutions to simple problems.

 

DB

[Stretch]

There seems to be a little confusion here between a hospital and a hotel. A hospitals primary function is to provide appropriate healthcare to make you better. Unfortunately luxury is not part of the package, If you're expecting anything other than basic you'll be massively disappointed. Lack of TV channels and snoring ward mates are sadly to be expected but if the level of care you receive is substandard then you have a legitimate right to complain

[rtbiscuit]

yes i meant consultants as in paper pusher not as in medical care giver.

[Ricey]

There seems to be a little confusion here between a hospital and a hotel. A hospitals primary function is to provide appropriate healthcare to make you better. Unfortunately luxury is not part of the package, If you're expecting anything other than basic you'll be massively disappointed. Lack of TV channels and snoring ward mates are sadly to be expected but if the level of care you receive is substandard then you have a legitimate right to complain

 

So you didnt get passed the first post then? Good effort.

 

My point regarding the parking and tv is that this whole 'free health care for all' actually is a bit of a load of bollocks isn't it (even if you do ignore the fact that I've already paid for it in my taxes) because they thieve a load more out of you for other crap.

[JetSet]

Caroline had a double fracture of the ankle when she slipped off the edge of a step at 10.00 pm on Christmas Eve 2005 . Her foot was at right angles to her leg . Phoned for an ambulance which rushed her to Chester Countess and after a quick X-Ray a couple of doctors straightened her leg, plastered her up, provided a pair of crutches and sent her home, but not before making an appointment for the 27th. Sadly, the ankle required further surgery and metal plating which they did on the 28th and The NHS helped her through her recovery including several sessions of physio at our local hospital. Everything went fine, the only downside were the absurd parking charges.

 

Since then, the situation has changed a bit. Because The Welsh Gov't runs the devolved NHS, they don't like you going to Chester Countess, even if it is the closest hospital, sending you instead to Wrexham, a well known MSRA hotspot and a dump of a hospital.

 

Pete

[Zugara]

Other European countries do not have anywhere near the amount of free health care that we do!

 

 

That's why they come here and get treated for FREE........

It's called an NHS Holiday.

 

I am a firm believer that people Should be able to opt out of NI payments in favour of private health care.

 

The NHS ain't free, check your payslip, something there called NI!

Yes it's free if you don't work, but that's the UK for ya

[Keyser]

I got "Free" health care when I broke my leg in the former republic of Yugoslavia,

Apart from the language problem and the inconvenience of no pain killers (so they reset my leg without OUCH!) it wasn't too bad. Well no TV, no aircon or heating - but then no windows.

The of course was the minor inconvenience of being quarantined for 2 weeks in a UK hospital when I got back while they analysed the 6 viral infections I had picked up!

 

Apart from that though

[Zugara]

I got "Free" health care when I broke my leg in the former republic of Yugoslavia,

Apart from the language problem and the inconvenience of no pain killers (so they reset my leg without OUCH!) it wasn't too bad. Well no TV, no aircon or heating - but then no windows.

The of course was the minor inconvenience of being quarantined for 2 weeks in a UK hospital when I got back while they analysed the 6 viral infections I had picked up!

 

Apart from that though

 

So your Free health care, then became a burden on the NHS ?

[Keyser]

I got "Free" health care when I broke my leg in the former republic of Yugoslavia,

Apart from the language problem and the inconvenience of no pain killers (so they reset my leg without OUCH!) it wasn't too bad. Well no TV, no aircon or heating - but then no windows.

The of course was the minor inconvenience of being quarantined for 2 weeks in a UK hospital when I got back while they analysed the 6 viral infections I had picked up!

 

Apart from that though

 

So your Free health care, then became a burden on the NHS ?

 

 

sorry

 

 

 

 

[Chesterfield]

My experience of the NHS has largely been very, very positive. My mother has had breast cancer twice, and the NHS care she received was excellent, my son was brought into this world by the NHS, and the care Tracy had during pregnancy and throught the days we were at the birth centre was also excellent.

 

Ive gone private to "jump the queue" on getting some tests done myself, and can see the benefits of going private, if only for the sake of speed. If you have something weighing heavily on your mind and want an answer, then being told you have to wait 2 months for an appointment with a specialist is not good for your mental health at all. Cutting the queue by going private for the sake f a few hundred pounds in my case, saved me weeks of mental anguish.

 

So why are the waiting lists so long in the NHS and why does it find itself the subject of cuts?

 

In my opinion its all to do with where else we spend money, and how much we spend. The total spent on social welfare in this country exceeds the total ammount of income tax received, and theat excludes items housing etc - it is just welfare - i.e. benefits. How it is possible to preside over a system where more is spent on handouts than is actually taken in income tax is ridiculous.

 

The ammount spent on benefits including housing in this country exceeds the ammount spent on health and education combined! Thats a reason.

 

Want an example of how perverse the system is - have a look here, under "Employment, Jobseekers, contact jobcentre plus"

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/employment/ ... /dg_186347

 

The first two thirds of the page are about ensuring people get their benefits, and how they go about it. You actually have to scroll down before you even come to a small section on actually getting a job. And here was me thinking it was the JOB centre.

[geoff-r]

Can't speak very highly of the recent treatment my brother received. He came off his bike and slammed to the ground with such impact he broke his pelvis. I witnessed the whole thing, from the accident to the paramedics turning up to the treatment he received in A&E and it was all pretty bad. When he turned up to A&E he complained of pain in his chest, hip area and left foot. So they took an x-ray of his hip area only and left him for about 2 hours until they decided they should take his chest and foot seriously and x-ray them as well. He was laid up in hospital for 5 days in a short stay unit (bearing in mind he had suffered a savage injury and was bleeding internally).

 

After 5 days they pushed him out and said 'see you in 6 weeks at the trauma clinic'. When he came home he looked terrible, he had lost all of his colour and was just in a huge amount of pain. My mum decided due to his state he needed a blood test (apparently something that's a standard requirement when you're discharged from hospital anyway but the hospital staff had failed to do so), she was told by the doctor that he was too busy and wrote in his notes to eat plenty of spinach and brocolli. This didn't sit well so I called a friend who is a trainee doctor and she advised us to rush him in to A&E as it sounded like his blood levels were dangerously low. The following day my brother got a blood test and the haemoglobin levels came back at around 7. For people that know I think a healthy 23 year old should have levels of about 14. He was rushed back in to hospital and had 4 units of blood put in to him.

 

I don't want to say I hope I never end up in the hands of the NHS because I know they save lives and they do a great deal of good but I just don't think I would feel safe.

[coldel]

Just my tuppence worth...

 

I think there is clearly two parts of the NHS argument, the infrastructure and the personel. The infrastructure varies massively, under invested vs state of the art depending on where you happen to be and what you are there for. As Chesterfield mentioned, the country slips further and further into debt, there isnt enough money to go around, how do you invest? You cant, you simply mantain where you can.

 

The people though, really are something, fantastic utterly fantastic and I wouldnt swap the people of the NHS for any other around the world.

 

I lived in both Japan and France and by some bizarre twist of fate broke my hand in both - right hand in japan left in France.

 

In Japan I kinda just left it until it went very black and the pain killers were doing nothing so went to a doctor who looked at it, said it was broken, said I was lucky it naturally set in the right position and also thought I was mad for putting up with the pain - that cost me about £150 for a chat and a bandage.

 

France I waited for 5 hours in the hospital (and this is in central paris not out in the stix), before being seen at 2am in a room where I sat on the edge of a bed and looked down to see dried blood spots on the floor, then having to pay an Ambulance 65 euro to take me to another hospital (they took me in the back and stopped at a cash point to get the money as my fingers pointing in all the wrong directions tried to press the pin numbers in - imagine the scene from Blade Runner where Ford has his fingers broken and the gun put back in his hand!) then finally, 8 hours after walking into one hospital, walking out of another with splints on my fingers.

 

Trust me guys, the grass isn't always greener...

[rancer]

Some things can and should be privitised.

 

Some things can be privitised but never, ever should be.

 

The military, the emergency services, the NHS and Education - they should never be in the hands of business. Any time they move the goalposts towards making money = a loss of service = long term problems.

 

Sadly however, the government are already privitising the Police, the NHS and Schools.

 

When we cross that line to a two tier system for rich and poor is when I will chuck my card in and ply my trade some warmer.