coldel Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Heres a snap of the manual, so yes it does say that they recommend that you use at least 96 RON (BP Ultimate is therefore absolutely fine), it also says you can in emergency use 91 RON but has to be mixed with the 96+ RON stuff. It doesn't mention 5k revs just full throttle or hard acceleration, which I imagine happens overall in about 5% of everyday driving. Probably why we haven't seen all the dead cars in Ireland. Would also be surprised if ECUs cannot be set to 95 RON, just like various tuners here in the UK can with uprev, surely cars sold new in Ireland have to be fit for purpose in that country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Its certainly possible for the makers to tailor an individual map to the country and fuel that country uses, however would they bother? It also wont be widely advertised that the std ECU does not monitor knock over 5K, and with the comments made about Ireland, its highly likely that motors don't get taxed performance wise, and its highly likely that even in the UK motors just don't get hammered when using lower octane fuel, so the perhaps 3 to 5% of reported engine failures due to det damage is actually pretty reflective of the truth. After all you would need to be pretty brutal to keep the engine over 5K danger zone on the road while using low octane fuel, it would be interesting to find out if anyone has seriously drifted or tracked a Z on low octane fuel, but then who in their right mind is going to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricey Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Mmmmm, i am not going to get into the debate but, how many engines have died from it, i should imagine its an absolute tiny fraction, thats not to say dont run it of course, but i am also not sure i go along with the, it will explode into a thousand pieces if you do hysteria. You'd never know bud. It'd take massive investigation and by this point the punter is only interested in getting a new engine. Bottom line it's a risk. How big of a risk is totally debatable but you are running it. The facts are that this engine requires the higher RON........don't use it and you risk abnormal combustion. It's just a total paranoia issue though. If the car is second hand instantly you just don't know. Similarly you'll get people terrified of using a single tank of standard. For me it's a bit like using crap oil. Prob wouldn't hurt for one oil change but it certainly won't be doing it any good. Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glrnet Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 Mmmmm, i am not going to get into the debate but, how many engines have died from it, i should imagine its an absolute tiny fraction, thats not to say dont run it of course, but i am also not sure i go along with the, it will explode into a thousand pieces if you do hysteria. Ha, you just debated it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Its certainly possible for the makers to tailor an individual map to the country and fuel that country uses, however would they bother? I'd like to assume they would if the grade of fuel wasn't available at all in the country the car is being sold. Whether that's the case or not I have no idea, but I'd be more inclined to believe that was the case than the premise that absolutely no one in Ireland pushes their car regularly enough to cause damage on the lower grade fuel that is available. That's not to say I'm not wrong of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSet Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 As far as I understand it the DE engine can only control detonation up to 5k rpm if you run on 95 RON. Therefore at anything above 5k you do run the risk of det damage, how high you have to go and for how long isn't clear though. I really don't think the main risk lies at over 5K revs. Let me explain....first of all you'd be risking a hefty fine if you use 5K in any gear from 4th to 6th and even in 3rd you can easily exceed the national 60 speed limit. The thing is that very few of us will use 5k for any prolonged period. No, the main cause of detonation would come by working the engine hard at low revs up long hills. It's all very well toodling along at 30 in 5th on a flat road on next to zero throttle but flooring it at such low speeds puts a massive strain on the engine and there's always the temptation not to change gear .I can remember back before the day actually asking my dad what that noise was climbing steep hills on our Sunday run out in Wales....pinking he replied, never really understood it until I got my first car. Pete 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 As far as I understand it the DE engine can only control detonation up to 5k rpm if you run on 95 RON. Therefore at anything above 5k you do run the risk of det damage, how high you have to go and for how long isn't clear though. I really don't think the main risk lies at over 5K revs. Let me explain....first of all you'd be risking a hefty fine if you use 5K in any gear from 4th to 6th and even in 3rd you can easily exceed the national 60 speed limit. The thing is that very few of us will use 5k for any prolonged period. No, the main cause of detonation would come by working the engine hard at low revs up long hills. It's all very well toodling along at 30 in 5th on a flat road on next to zero throttle but flooring it at such low speeds puts a massive strain on the engine and there's always the temptation not to change gear .I can remember back before the day actually asking my dad what that noise was climbing steep hills on our Sunday run out in Wales....pinking he replied, never really understood it until I got my first car. Pete That's also partially incorrect I;m afraid, while knock can occur at low speed/rpm, at under 5K the ECU and knock sensors will detect knock and retard ignition timing until such a time as its no longer detected for a certain amount of time (pre programed into the ECUs maps) then it will gradually increase the timing to the original settings, thereby protecting the engine form pre ignition. Now proper detonation takes place when the flame front is preceded by hot spots which ignite the mixture ahead of the flame front, which is caused by either too much compression for the fuel octane being used and/or the ignition timing being too far advanced or retarded, now what you have to remember is that if you using low octane fuel the ECU is already retarded the ignition timing to reduce the knock that is already indubitably taking place, so its not going to impact the after 5K rpm/loads as badly as it would if it was not already retarded therefor protecting the engine from damage. Not the best explanation but hopefully gets the point across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSet Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Well let's face it there's a certain amount of paranoia here. There are some people on here who'd rather park up and walk 5 miles with a can to the next garage than put in a fivers worth of 95 in and drive there. Unless you're keeping the car for 10 years or 150k miles then what's the problem and I wouldn't mind betting that the vast majority of 350's have had at least one owner who's run it exclusively on the cheap stuff. It's never bothered me to stick in a tenners worth of 95 in when the local Shell has no V-Power. The thing is that the vast majority of engine failures are caused by lack of oil, lack of water, lack of maintenance, being thrashed or just wear and tear associated with high mileage. While its true that you should run your Zed on V-Power or equivalent as per the label don't panic if you're local has run out, sticking a small amount of the other stuff won't amount to instant detonation or devalue the car by hundreds of pounds, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glrnet Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 As far as I understand it the DE engine can only control detonation up to 5k rpm if you run on 95 RON. Therefore at anything above 5k you do run the risk of det damage, how high you have to go and for how long isn't clear though. I really don't think the main risk lies at over 5K revs. Let me explain....first of all you'd be risking a hefty fine if you use 5K in any gear from 4th to 6th and even in 3rd you can easily exceed the national 60 speed limit. The thing is that very few of us will use 5k for any prolonged period. No, the main cause of detonation would come by working the engine hard at low revs up long hills. It's all very well toodling along at 30 in 5th on a flat road on next to zero throttle but flooring it at such low speeds puts a massive strain on the engine and there's always the temptation not to change gear .I can remember back before the day actually asking my dad what that noise was climbing steep hills on our Sunday run out in Wales....pinking he replied, never really understood it until I got my first car. Pete That's also partially incorrect I;m afraid, while knock can occur at low speed/rpm, at under 5K the ECU and knock sensors will detect knock and retard ignition timing until such a time as its no longer detected for a certain amount of time (pre programed into the ECUs maps) then it will gradually increase the timing to the original settings, thereby protecting the engine form pre ignition. Now proper detonation takes place when the flame front is preceded by hot spots which ignite the mixture ahead of the flame front, which is caused by either too much compression for the fuel octane being used and/or the ignition timing being too far advanced or retarded, now what you have to remember is that if you using low octane fuel the ECU is already retarded the ignition timing to reduce the knock that is already indubitably taking place, so its not going to impact the after 5K rpm/loads as badly as it would if it was not already retarded therefor protecting the engine from damage. Not the best explanation but hopefully gets the point across. Thanks TR, yes it did, it's surprising what is bandied about by so called experts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingers Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I've changed the engine on one first hand and i'll tell you now it was a car thrapped everywhere by a toe rag and ran on ****. That was one of many weve seen........It was damn near one a week at one point Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk What engine components failed? Were they all standard spec? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricey Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I've changed the engine on one first hand and i'll tell you now it was a car thrapped everywhere by a toe rag and ran on ****. That was one of many weve seen........It was damn near one a week at one point Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk What engine components failed? Were they all standard spec? Jammed a rod through the crank case. You could see evidence of det on the piston face Totally stock car. Thest said an oil gallery may have clogged for a few seconds and actually killed it you just don't know but I think we're getting at odds to the argument. Incorrect fuel will not be good for the car and COULD cause knock and preignition. That said it doesn't mean one tank of the stuff = deaded engine. It's a deteriorating effect, where then engine cannot compensate. What happened in this case (I believe) was pre ignition (not detonation - knock) which is usually a byproduct of a period of knock. I know we're all guessing with Irish zeds but I can't believe the car would be specifically marketed to a country where the fuel to run it was unavailable. .....surely they must have a different map? Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricey Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Sorry just found the piccie. Conrod went through the crank case into the sump but it for want of a better word 'shat' the piston Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I think the bottom line of this thread is that the first pic and comment is a case of what CAN happen if you continually run your DE on low octane fuel, rather than what WILL happen, most modern ECUs are quite capable of controlling the effects of using the wrong fuel grade, even for long periods of time PROVIDING the engine is used with a little consideration and mechanical sympathy. Don't forget that most manufactures consider the general driving populace as complete cretin's and would probably be right 80% of the time, (present company excepted) and try and design there cars with this in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 (edited) Sorry guys, I have tried to read through the thread the best I can, but can't find this. What is the official line from Nissan - IE what does the handbook say? 95 octane or higher/premium? I don't yet have a 350, but I'm hoping to find one to my liking soon. Edited August 3, 2016 by Blackstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brillomaster Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 says it on the inside of the fuel cap - 98RON minimum, although in reality any super unleaded is fine, some of which are technically 97RON. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy78 Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 Sorry guys, I have tried to read through the thread the best I can, but can't find this. What is the official line from Nissan - IE what does the handbook say? 95 octane or higher/premium? I don't yet have a 350, but I'm hoping to find one to my liking soon. Handbook and fuel flap say 98 RON. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Thanks, yesterday I downloaded a 2004 manual PDF and it said 96 RON minimum,which I thought was odd. Does anyone here use Tesco 99? Fuel choice/type is a consideration for me, as I live in a semi-rural area and could get caught short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H1979 Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Vpower personally, but I'm sure the Tesco 99 stuff is just fine. If you do ever get caught short you can always put just enough standard in to get you by and don't rag it until you've put some good stuff in again. :-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenDW Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Vpower personally, but I'm sure the Tesco 99 stuff is just fine. If you do ever get caught short you can always put just enough standard in to get you by and don't rag it until you've put some good stuff in again. :-) I've been using Momentum 99 for a while, but I'm switching to V Power for a few months to see what the performance and fuel economy are like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Muxlow Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 I have been using tesco momentum 99 since having my zed and no issues at all plus it's about 10p a litre cheaper than v power! Sent from my iPhone using hammer and chisel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wez370 Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 I have been using tesco momentum 99 since having my zed and no issues at all plus it's about 10p a litre cheaper than v power! Sent from my iPhone using hammer and chisel! I used tesco 99 for about 3 months with no change and suddenly the car had an issue where it wouldn't register a full tank when topping it up from half way. ran some redex through along with v power for two weeks and the issue went away and hasnt resurfaced since. Personally I dont trust the supermarkets anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Muxlow Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 I have been using tesco momentum 99 since having my zed and no issues at all plus it's about 10p a litre cheaper than v power! Sent from my iPhone using hammer and chisel! I used tesco 99 for about 3 months with no change and suddenly the car had an issue where it wouldn't register a full tank when topping it up from half way. ran some redex through along with v power for two weeks and the issue went away and hasnt resurfaced since. Personally I dont trust the supermarkets anymore. I do understand that I had an issue with morrisons fuel in my bike where it stopped running about 4 miles from the garage! I got it going again, but wouldn't put supermarket fuel in it after that. Sent from my iPhone using hammer and chisel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Issue we come across with supermarket fuels is that its bought in bulk during the cheaper periods and then sold thoughout the year. Not a mssive issue for most but winter fuel comes with more additive but can be more expensive to buy initially. Summer fuel sold during the winter can cause breakdowns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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