brillomaster Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 just being deliberately obtuse on a monday evening, but hear me out, and it is relevant with so many new to rwd members, and the current poor driving conditions... At some point almost everyone is going to have to switch from driving FWD cars to driving RWD cars (unless you were lucky enough to have learnt to drive in an MX5, or something very old when cars were still rwd) and some of those drivers will have a 'moment' where the back tries to overtake the front in a misplaced stab of the throttle coming off a wet roundabout. The 'moment' might not necessarily be a crash, and it might not even be a spin, it might just be a wiggle of the rear, but even so, do you think having that first 'moment' makes you more appreciative of the RWD art as a result? From personal experience, after having spun my mx5 3 years ago i now know that grip isnt always there, and also that you can't go booting the throttle of rwd cars in the wet... so now when i drive i think i have a far better appreciation for the road conditions (damp/cold/just rained etc) and also of how a rwd operates, and where to be smooth with inputs, and tyre choice! I think if i'd have never had that 'moment' i might not think twice about these things, until i have a really big accident. To sum up, is it better in the long run to have overstepped the limits so you know where they are, rather than never having reached the limit in the first place? (and as a PS, after spinning my mx5 i decided some car control days might be in order, and not only are they great fun they do wonders for confidence if something does start sliding on the road you dont immediately panic ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik54 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Yup - I remember my first and thankfully my only 360 in the zed (was on track with Mr T in the passenger seat ) it taught me a lot ... as in once you've totally lost the back end of a RWD there's that split second when you can get it back and if you miss it you might as well just hold on tight and giggle. But then I wouldn't ever really push on on a public road in any car regardless of FWD / RWD so I hope I never find out those limits again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcotix Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I've had 2 'moments' since getting my Zed ... I'm definitely more careful in bad weathers conditions now as a result ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EH 370z Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The great man Dirty Harry once said "A man needs to know his limitations..." This is one way of finding out what they are ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zugara Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I love getting the back end twitchy, when conditions permit naturally. Although its easy in my merc I did have a few moments in the zed, and it always felt a good lesson learned IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will370z Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Id definitely say yes. When i was younger i was driving my mums polo back home and a lady coming the other way lost control of her mgb in the wet and hit me side on. Absolutely nothing i could have done and the resulting impact flipped me and the polo rolled three times through a hedge and into the field. I was very lucky to get away with a few scratches. But the one thing it did teach me was observation and anticipation and now if im not sure of a manouvre i dont risk it. I think some young drivers think they are invincible. A little knock should teach them to be a little more careful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 One of the present foremost road testers that I know from back in my motorsport days when he first applied to join a leading motoring magazine as a journalist, was asked the question at his interview as to whether he had ever crashed a car. Answering truthfully and in detail, but fearing the worst, he owned up to rolling a car and writing it off. Was offered the job, beating a number of other hopefuls, and somewhat surprised about owning up to the accident was told that he would have a learnt a big lesson about his own limits and in which case he was less likely, in their view, to crash another being someone who clearly had a passion for motoring and that was a big factor in their decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Yep, 100%. The feeling of when its about to let go, or the feeling of knowing you are going to get it back after its let go, or even the feeling of impending doom cant be taught. Ive also crashed enough (on track and on the road) that I dont panic anymore when a car is out of control, couple that with the fact that I know its coming long before my 18 year old self would have done and Id hope its made a me a safer driver. Ive also come to appreciate that cars cant be replaced with pocket money and banging them up really isnt a great idea. Remember though, the biggest thing that dvelops as you get older is the self preservation gene, Id be interested to see what people who started driving in their 30's say on this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dom187 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I am unfortunate to be on my second Zed, my first I lost while going round a country bend and there was mud on the road. I wrote the car off and I was doing less than 30mph. The car hit a tree sideways, the car hit the tree right on the pillar. I had been driving for 6 years and this was my first proper performance car, I had driven the car throughout the snow last year so I thought I had got this RWD business sussed. Before the accident I had always felt I am a good driver and it would never happen to me, my mistake was partly being complacent and thinking that you only had to watch the road conditions when going fast. I felt @*!# for ages, I used to love driving after the accident it took me quite a while before I enojyed driving again. I have learned alot from the experience. I saw how much damage can be done at relatively low speeds, I have alot more respect for the car. This experience coupled with the fact a friend of mine has got brain damage from a road accident he had recently I take the experience as a lesson. Now I drive with a lot more caution regardless if I am going down the shops or going for a blat down a country road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilMH Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 More cautious in certain conditions certainly. Two or three years ago I was driving an S1 Elise in very cold conditions along a straight road with trees on either side. Fortunately I was taking it very easy, on a light throttle and it was early morning (not much traffic). Without any warning at all the back end of the car went on black ice. Any opposite lock or anything I tried to do had no impact whatsoever. We were just passengers and spun round across the other carriageway (nothing was coming the other way) then back to the nearside down a 30 degree bank towards the trees. The driver in the car behind us said he'd not seen anything quite like it (the chances are when I backed off fairly enthusiastically, from fear of death, I unwittingly contributed towards the Elise's natural lift off oversteer characteristics). Fortunately the Elise is so light that the thick grass on the bank couple with a lot of light brush on the edge of the trees brought it to a halt with a lost number plate, a lot of mud a very scraped diffuser as the only damage (much to my surprise). When we went back and looked at the bit of road it was virtually impossible to stand up on it. I now drive like a 97 year old nun in icy conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Rob Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The zed seems almost foolproof with the esp on so I reckon this could give a false sense of security because when the circumstances are right, you will come a cropper. I spun off the road in my e30 beemer and hit a tree side-on, the road was cold and greasy but I wasn't accelerating and it was a road I was familiar with. It took me completely by suprise and there was nothing I could to recover it. I think having a crash does teach you a lesson that's hard to forget and in my case taught me to consider the wheels and tyres that I run, 35 profile tyres look great on 17 inch wheels but I wouldn't recommend them on an e30. I think that what i learned was that i'll always be an average driver at best, so I know my limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brillomaster Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 wow, this isnt quite how i expected this thread to go! seems to a be a resounding agreement that having a moment or even a crash certainly makes you a more cautious and aware driver. Although i would ask has anyone had a moment and feel more confident as a result of this? Probably more relevant on a track though if you are regularly running right on the limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoff-r Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I had a moment in my 370 when it had about 200 miles on it. I came out of filter going left and stabbed the throttle, despite the road being dry the car bit me in the arse as the rear end over took the front and left me a few feet from a 10 foot solid concrete wall. I haven't had an incident since Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garetgax Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Yep...deffo. Had a moment in our mr2 fortunately we were only doing 30ish. straightlined a r-about at the bottom of ilkeston, it was wet, 6.00 in the morning and the tyres had just been replaced. Unfortunately they muppets had fitted them the wrong way round . Car lost it read diff heading for the central reservation, I to this day dont know how i got it to miss the central resevation and end up back on the r-about facing the wrong way where I proceeded to stall the car facing a van with three lads clapping. scared the wotsits out of me and shell. Took it to toyota thinking a suspension failure must have caused it to snap like it did. went mental at the tyre co.....and i quote what the tyre manager said "what difference which way we fit the tyres....." my response minus the expletives..."200bhp...rear tyres.....rotational......followed by more expletives....." certainly taught me that rwd can bite and when it does it bites hard.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I have a saying that I've picked up. The first time it's a mistake. The second time it's a f*ck up. So basically you have to learn from your mistakes and experiences. So having a 'moment' will make you a better driver if you learn from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Most definately a crash or moment does make you a better driver. Unfortunately in this day and age its not easy to go "dick about" in safety and learn the limits of cars any more. So much is done in electronics and cars are so well engineered for grip that when you do get past that limit, it really bites and serious damage/injury are quite often the outcome, rather than a bit of an "oh ****" moment that might have happened in a slower, skinnier tyre car years back. IMO part of learning to drive should include a certain amount of logged hours on a skid pan and high speed handling circuit to really learn how car dynamics work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 IMO part of learning to drive should include a certain amount of logged hours on a skid pan and high speed handling circuit to really learn how car dynamics work. Fully agree - find the limits in a controlled environment - my motorsport days taught me an awful lot about my own and the cars' limits at the time, but you are always learning and I have a CAT driving day lined up at Millbrook using the 370 to explore its and my own limits now that it is set up to my liking, so still continuing to learn after ** years of driving . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbitstew Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 In my experience it makes you a slower more nervous driver. In one of my old cars, I had some idiot pile into the back of me at 60mph when I was stationary. My car was written off and I was off work with injuries for weeks. The police didnt prosecute the other driver claiming there was "lack of evidence" wtf!!! But months later when I had enough confidence to get back in the driving seat I was paranoid about someone crashing into the back of my car. Id find myself constantly looking in my rear view mirror when I was in traffic, and its strange, but you keep re-living that impact feeling. Certainly made me drive like a grand-dad. Even now I seldom drive fast. Its the thought of injuring yourself and the thought of the financial cost of fixing the car! I used to very much be into motorbikes and still am - ive 3 in my garage. Having crashed them a few times through pushing them too hard, again it certainly makes you a lot more wary of the road conditions and the grip you may or may not have. I shudder now thinking of some of the stuff I used to do when I was a lad and got away with it - or those near misses where I crashed and walked away. What did it for me was I used to work with the california superbike school for a while, helping riders learn to ride properly, as well as supervising trackdays. Seeing some of the riders there have serious crashes and having to go & pick up the pieces made you realise just how vunerable you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rothers2901 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Does a crash make you a better driver? Only if you survive. I can only begin to asume that inexperience when driving a RWD has a lot to do with the majority of comments in this thread re, (Back end stepping out). Iv'e found that unless there is outside influences which cannot be foreseen it's almost impossible to get the back end slipping without being over zelous with the right foot. The Z is such a great car to drive it's all too easy to get carried away and fall to temptation to push the boundries. Im my experience drivers skill levels, fall far short of the levels of grip of modern day cars so when grip does give way it's generally at too higher speed thus normally no way back and the enevitable happend. Having said all of this, and to answer the original question. There is no substitute for expeirience so if you can walk away from any crash providing you learn from it then, yes crashing should make you a safer but not a better driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricey Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Yes it does........and as I'm on my 10th insurance claim in 12 years (fault and not) I'm actually the best driver in the world now.............FACT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Ice/frost is a very good example, when I was a lad I didnt think it made any difference, I now drive with the fear of god in my heart when its even a smidgen below 3 degrees Any incidents Ive had on the road have generally been due to something unexpected happening, the more experience you have the more you expect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rothers2901 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Yes it does........and as I'm on my 10th insurance claim in 12 years (fault and not) I'm actually the best driver in the world now.............FACT Nice to hear I wouldnt like to be in you shoes when filling out an insurance quote with these stats. If i could give any advice to anyone who cares to listen, observation, awareness of your surrounding and antisipation is key to safe driving. Treat every other road user as an idiot who WILL do the unexpected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Yes it does........and as I'm on my 10th insurance claim in 12 years (fault and not) I'm actually the best driver in the world now.............FACT I have had one crash, aged 18, reversing my beloved old VW Polo out of my parents driveway with parked cars either side of the drive exit onto a busy road (yeah I know you should reverse it in but so difficult with buses and the like going along the main road its not always doable). It was dark and raining hard, I edged back so slowly, edged, edged, edged, back end started to clear the parked cars and suddenly WHAM. All I remember is my head going forward and cracking on the steering wheel then blackness. I woke up with the Polo parked about 100 feet down the road on the otherside of the road, apparently lost about 20 seconds as the driver of the other car had stopped and was walking up to me. I was sat there, car parked perfectly alongside the kerb, my foot pushed to the floor on the brake still and a headache like you wouldnt believe. The bizarre things was by all accounts I did a 360 and then some, and somehow the car parked itself neatly up the road out of harms way. It wrote off his shiny Rover Sport, my Polo needed about fifty quids worth of breakers bits. Certainly makes me more cautious when reversing I can tell you, even years later! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakes100 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 On a slightly different note whenever I go out in my car in the very cold weather I tend to test find an open, empty piece of road and lean on the brakes reasonably hard just see how it reacts to the conditions, I can then drive accordingly. I tend to notice all too often that other road users gauge their speed on how sunny it is or if its raining or not. Loads of crashes seem to happen in my area where there is a sunny morning after a cold night and people head out and drive at their usual speed. ..maybe slightly off-topic but fits in with the 'knowing you limits' and judging conditions and driving accordingly I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 What makes me laugh is that as soon as it rains on the motorway everyone slows down...then the second it stops everyone starts tanking it again - errrr people, the ground is still wet you know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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