Focus ST > 350z

[rtbiscuit]

Im sure most will disagree and Ill be called a philistine and a retard, but until you have driven a properly sorted FWD car you have no idea of how good they can be.

 

 

have to agree with what you said on this.

 

one of the big things i found is that FWD is more fool proof for less experienced drivers, its far easier to correct an out of control FWD car than it is a RWD if the driver is not experienced.

 

The rewards with RWD is not that its always quicker but the fact you have alot more control over the car, and in a sliding situation a driver of a RWD car can get more feedback, feel and deliver more control.

 

the only challenge i can give you is to drive a really well sorted zed(ie one that is raw....stripped of almost all the factory GTness) against a similarly sorted FWD car then you will truly understand

 

 

I've driven a race prepped 370Z in the qualifiers for the nissan challenge a few years back and it was a great example of what i said above. there were other drivers there who were based in FWD cars and were bragging at how easy this was going to be and just watch them own that track. there was a lot of confidence form most of the FWD boys. but it was funnier still watching them spend most of their time going round in circles as they couldn't control the back end. they were too used to being bailed out by FWD that they tried to do the same thing and the RWD just chewed them up and spat them out.

 

i think you can probably go faster in a FWD in alot of situations but i think RWD takes a bit more skill to drive and gives more feedback.

 

as for the best setup for a car. i would say mid engined 4WD with a 70/30 split on the front to rear bias.

[Trojan D079]

In my opinion Ford are the worst for dealerships treat you like scum

 

 

Interesting you say that - when I was trying to get a drive of a Focus RS, the first place I called up told me, point blank that "they dont do test pilots" and that I wouldnt be able to drive one without putting down a deposit. I said that was ridiculous to ask someone to spend £26K on a car without driving it first, he told me to like it or lump it.

 

Called the second garage up and got "We dont do test pilots ........", at that point kinda lost it at them, pointing out that I had a test of a GTR lined up in two days and had been out in a 997C2S and a Lexus IS-F the day before, and a 996 Turbo the day before that. I asked them what the justification for Porsche letting me drive a 75K car but Ford refusing on one thats only worth a third of the money ........ suddenly they did give tests and would this afternoon be OK sir?

 

Same with me would barely talk to me till they spotted my car which at the time was the then new Honda civic ex with all the bells and whistles on, my m8t drives 50 miles out of his way to get his ST looked at by a ford garage he trusts lol

[spursmaddave]

In my opinion Ford are the worst for dealerships treat you like scum

 

 

Interesting you say that - when I was trying to get a drive of a Focus RS, the first place I called up told me, point blank that "they dont do test pilots" and that I wouldnt be able to drive one without putting down a deposit. I said that was ridiculous to ask someone to spend £26K on a car without driving it first, he told me to like it or lump it.

 

Called the second garage up and got "We dont do test pilots ........", at that point kinda lost it at them, pointing out that I had a test of a GTR lined up in two days and had been out in a 997C2S and a Lexus IS-F the day before, and a 996 Turbo the day before that. I asked them what the justification for Porsche letting me drive a 75K car but Ford refusing on one thats only worth a third of the money ........ suddenly they did give tests and would this afternoon be OK sir?

 

Same with me would barely talk to me till they spotted my car which at the time was the then new Honda civic ex with all the bells and whistles on, my m8t drives 50 miles out of his way to get his ST looked at by a ford garage he trusts lol

 

To be fair they must get a lot of 'test pilots' wanting to take an ST out, I know they shouldn't think everyone is going to be one but you can understand it. Would you go on the Jeremy Kyle show and expect to be treated with any degree of respect?

[Trojan D079]

In my opinion Ford are the worst for dealerships treat you like scum

 

 

Interesting you say that - when I was trying to get a drive of a Focus RS, the first place I called up told me, point blank that "they dont do test pilots" and that I wouldnt be able to drive one without putting down a deposit. I said that was ridiculous to ask someone to spend £26K on a car without driving it first, he told me to like it or lump it.

 

Called the second garage up and got "We dont do test pilots ........", at that point kinda lost it at them, pointing out that I had a test of a GTR lined up in two days and had been out in a 997C2S and a Lexus IS-F the day before, and a 996 Turbo the day before that. I asked them what the justification for Porsche letting me drive a 75K car but Ford refusing on one thats only worth a third of the money ........ suddenly they did give tests and would this afternoon be OK sir?

 

Same with me would barely talk to me till they spotted my car which at the time was the then new Honda civic ex with all the bells and whistles on, my m8t drives 50 miles out of his way to get his ST looked at by a ford garage he trusts lol

 

To be fair they must get a lot of 'test pilots' wanting to take an ST out, I know they shouldn't think everyone is going to be one but you can understand it. Would you go on the Jeremy Kyle show and expect to be treated with any degree of respect?

 

You would think that but I am not lying when I say 20 odd garages treated me like that so far a 100% Crp rating, but when I went to Romans International in London they let me have a look and sit down in a Bugatti Veyron, gt40, MC SLR and all the Aston martins lol. I tell you one thing if I won the lottery that’s were I would buy my car top blokes even though they new I couldn’t buy one

[docwra]

and have never owned a FWD car

 

Well positioned to comment then?

Ive owned a 172, a Lancia HF Turbo on Grp N suspension and 3 GTI-6's. Ive also owned 8 (more?) 200SX's from bone stock through to over 400hp and fully track specced, a few BMW's and obviously my 350. On track Ive used everything from Mk1 Escorts through to 500+hp Skylines. This kinds negates your road conditions/power to weight etc arguments as well as Ive probably already experienced the differences on both sides of the coin.

 

without any doubt RWD set up is the far superior overall just like other automotive facts.

 

And I am the most attractive man in the world, as with all other humanity related facts.

That statement is rubbish mate, you cant generalise like that without any eviudence at all. Im talking from personal experience of owning and driving all of these cars in all conditions, I can produce at least 5/6 people with exactly the same story as me - wrote off FWD as being crap, got a very good FWD car, changed mind.

 

FWD is definitely more accessible, but in most situations Ive got just as much control over the back of my 6 as I have my 350Z - see earlier comments regarding trail braking and weight distribution. The 6 is standard BTW, the Zed is modified

 

Back to my original point, all Im saying is dont write FWD off as not being as good as RWD until you have experienced a good one. With respect, you almost certainly havent.

[rtbiscuit]

I had a GTi6 and a CTR and they were great fun, i have to say my GTi6 was possibly my favourite FWD was a real hoot to drive regardless of weather, a real confidence instiller of a car. it weighed bog all but handled like a go kart. i'm fairly confident i could lose a zed on wet back roads if i was back in my old GTi6 and that was standard as well.

[GT4 Zed]

and have never owned a FWD car

 

 

Well positioned to comment then?

Ive owned a 172, a Lancia HF Turbo on Grp N suspension and 3 GTI-6's. Ive also owned 8 (more?) 200SX's from bone stock through to over 400hp and fully track specced, a few BMW's and obviously my 350. On track Ive used everything from Mk1 Escorts through to 500+hp Skylines. This kinds negates your road conditions/power to weight etc arguments as well as Ive probably already experienced the differences on both sides of the coin.

 

without any doubt RWD set up is the far superior overall just like other automotive facts.

 

 

And I am the most attractive man in the world, as with all other humanity related facts.

That statement is rubbish mate, you cant generalise like that without any eviudence at all. Im talking from personal experience of owning and driving all of these cars in all conditions, I can produce at least 5/6 people with exactly the same story as me - wrote off FWD as being crap, got a very good FWD car, changed mind.

 

FWD is definitely more accessible, but in most situations Ive got just as much control over the back of my 6 as I have my 350Z - see earlier comments regarding trail braking and weight distribution. The 6 is standard BTW, the Zed is modified

 

Back to my original point, all Im saying is dont write FWD off as not being as good as RWD until you have experienced a good one. With respect, you almost certainly havent.

 

 

Dowcra mate, i started by saying i did not want to make an argument of this as we all stating merely opinions and our experience

Do you think reelling off a list of cars owned makes you better qualifed or means only your opinion is correct or experience relevant?

I have had a long list of cars too but that is far from the point!

 

I agree with you FWD is more accessible and apart from cheap to produce thats another selling point same way most RWD cars come with inherent understeer setup In fact i will add by saying FWD is more flattering because of so much understeer that you think you have more rear control when actually its just pushing the front wide. you talk of weight distribution and trail braking but TBH on a FWD car its limited mostly to regaining front grip to help with turn and not a fine art as in RWD where it is dynamic and applied through turn in, mid corner and exit to keep the car balanced for maximum speed. It is feel and maintainance of this dynamically that makes RWD so rewarding and even more so than AWD.

 

More so I said RWD is overall more superior... not all RWD are better than FWD

I ended my post buy saying what really its all about....being petrolheads and enjoying driving as in truth there is no right or wrong choice but rather what we want from our cars or what we can afford to feed the undying quest for driving for pleasure.

Nobody wrote of the focus ST and most people here right chimed in to the Op querries and suggested the St is inferior to the zed in most department and.................. thats correct right?

 

Without a doubt there are FWD cars out there that will outhandle a zed but as i pointed out you need to actually homologate two cars to a set rule to be able to compare them and thats why there is a thing as class in racing. So until when can have such a comparison it will always be matter of opinion if a FWD is better than a RWD or even an AWD for that matter but as well as you and i know just look round the world why do you think most sports cars are rear wheel drive especially as FWD is cheaper to manufacture? Why are there more RWD or AWD cars out there racing than FWDs? The answer is because the are good but limited especially as you up the power and want more feel out of them!

 

That saying FWD cars have come a long way and there is so many wizardry to make them hand very well. We own 308 GT and its so honest. i can drive 8-9/10th of it ability in most twisty A roads and i feel chuffed but same road at 6-7/10th of my zeds ability i feel like a champ because i worked for it

 

So If the OP's question was can i get a FWD that is exciting and handles well then no doubt there are quite a few to point him to. But if he is suggesting he wants to switch from a FWD to a RWD then depending on what cars he was refering to we can make suggestions as appriopriate and in this case its ST to Zed which is a no contest

 

Putting this aside i will like to wipe the smile off you face in that litttle Pug of yours . name the place and the day

ok i'm joking and i hope you see the whole thing lighthearted as its supposed to be

[spursmaddave]

 

Bennett

[Bakes100]

I had a GTi6 and a CTR and they were great fun, i have to say my GTi6 was possibly my favourite FWD was a real hoot to drive regardless of weather, a real confidence instiller of a car. it weighed bog all but handled like a go kart. i'm fairly confident i could lose a zed on wet back roads if i was back in my old GTi6 and that was standard as well.

 

 

My last four cars have been a 306 gti6 , a 205 Gti with a gti-6 engine, a remapped Seat Leon Cupra R and now a Zed.

 

The most fun was the 205, the best through the corners was the 306, the most practical was the Leon and the Zed is the best at everything else.

[docwra]

I started by saying i did not want to make an argument of this as we all stating merely opinions and our experience

Do you think reelling off a list of cars owned makes you better qualifed or means only your opinion is correct or experience relevant?

 

The fact that youve never actually owned an FWD car and Ive still got the best handling one Ive driven as my daily, parked next to a track prepped 200SX and a 350Z on coilovers would suggest Im better qualified to comment, yes.

 

In fact i will add by saying FWD is more flattering because of so much understeer that you think you have more rear control when actually its just pushing the front wide.

 

is definitely not true, everything Ive listed as "good" (GTI-6, 205GTI, Teggy Type R) will oversteer rather than understeer as their main characteristic. Difficult to believe if you havent driven them, but trust me.

 

you talk of weight distribution and trail braking but TBH on a FWD car its limited mostly to regaining front grip to help with turn and not a fine art as in RWD where it is dynamic and applied through turn in, mid corner and exit to keep the car balanced for maximum speed.

 

..... if you trail brake anywhere after the apex (unless left foot braking for rally/drift purposes) then you arent doing it right ........ anyway, trail braking is all about the front wheels, not the rears anyway, doesnt matter which are driven.

 

More so I said RWD is overall more superior...

 

Dude, its a direct quote from two posts ago, you cant claim you said something different.

 

Without a doubt there are FWD cars out there that will outhandle a zed

 

Yes there is, I own it. Its a standard 306 GTI-6 that cost me £1000 which now has brand new OE suspension and bushes, running Yokohama Parada tyres. I also own 10K's worth of 350Z with £1000 of tyres and £1000 of suspension and in pretty much every respect bar possibly outright grip due to the much bigger and better tyres the 6 handles better. Thats my opinion but its shared by 4/5 other people who have driven both cars, including my brother who has a sorted Evo8 and the 10 or so former FWD haters on the SXOC who have bought a 6 and loved it. You can talk about homologation, track layout and whatever as much as you like, but the Zed should whip the 6 and it doesnt.

 

Im not looking for an argument, but you cant make sweeping statements like "RWD is far superior overall" when you dont actually own anything FWD (apart from the 308 you bought since the last post )

Im also not saying one is better than the other (for the third time), just dont write off FWD till youve tried a good one.

[GT4 Zed]

Dude you are becomming tiresome with "i" this and "i" that and my "mates" that so much so your dog will begin to run only on its front legs to make your point

keep all that technical shizzle away be fore you hurt yourself and stay with the facts. An ST is not a better drivers car than a zed and it just happen to be FWD.

I am entitled to state my opinion and whether you like it or not its a worldwide consensus from better placed than ourself that mostly RWD is dynamically a better drivers car than FWD. can you put up a poll here and see for yourself??

This does not say some FWD cars are not good or even better than comparable RWD cars. And this i have always maintained .

If you want to nitpick through my post and quotye out of context then do so with your blinkres off.

Finally......................... just keep beating up on your sorted zed that you have spent xyz on and cannot match you standard pug with parada tyres then it maybe you are are flattering your self about your ability or Bs-ing or can't set up your zed properly for the conditions in which the comparisons was made.

I hope i will be lucky to take revenge for zed-dom and (wipe that smile off your face in the pug ) ..........errrrhemmmm show you that all being equal on any track in the Uk i will skin you alive in that Pug or in a standard zed as it will be unfair with mine.

I end my side of this OOT debate that never was but that get it out of your mind that "i write off" FWD cars.

[coldel]

At the Zed meet at the Grasshopper recently I had a chat with lots of new people, some younger some older, some more experienced drivers some not, all generally pleasant people and appreciated a nice car...then a car drove past the car park slowly revving the engine then tore off down the road and we all knowingly looked at each other and thought "****" - it was a Focus ST ;-)

 

My simple view...I prefer the Zed over every car I have ever owned, RWD is part of that but it's so much more. And that's it really !!!

[Bakes100]

In my experience a decent front wheel drive car is fun.. Eg 306 gti6, 205 gti, clio 172 cup and even an accord type-r (probably integra and ctr, never driven though)

 

All of these can easily be tail happy if provoked (in the 205's case all the time!)

 

Whereas a poorly set up fwd car is painful to drive fast like a mk4 golf and a LCR in standard form. Focus ST for me fall somewhere between the two not terrible, but not up there with the best.

 

Can't comment on how other RWD cars compare against the Zed though as its all I've driven.

[Dblock]

You want something that can be hammered with a sense of safety go with the ST. You want to drive slower but have more fun get the zed.

 

I have a 172 and a 350. One isnt better than the other as they both have plus points but I personally feel the zed is more rewarding, the noise, the weight of the steering wheel and the driving position make you feel a little more special. The clio on most roads is faster not because it is but because I am still comfortable with FWD, I can push harder without worrying and can be steered with a throttle believe it or not.

 

Depends on yourself though. Drive both. Your not wrong for liking one over the other. As I said the 172 is faster (until Im a master driver ) but the 350 feels so much more special when doing it. Some people like the speed, some people like the drama. I prefer the latter

[Stew]

Stuff

 

 

Stuff

 

 

 

 

You are both entitled to opinions. Bennet, you are not always correct so perhaps you could respect the opinion of docwra even though it differs from your own instead of arguing about it.

 

FWD, RWD, 4WD, MR, FR etc preferences are all subjective.

 

Maybe some people should get out and drive other cars instead of slating cars they've never driven.

[spursmaddave]

Stuff

 

 

Stuff

 

 

 

 

You are both entitled to opinions. Bennet, you are not always correct so perhaps you could respect the opinion of docwra even though it differs from your own instead of arguing about it.

 

FWD, RWD, 4WD, MR, FR etc preferences are all subjective.

 

Maybe some people should get out and drive other cars instead of slating cars they've never driven.

 

Or just get them out and see who's is the biggest....

[Ekona]

I'd rather drive an average RWD car than a good FWD one. Just my personal preference.

 

I'd pick an E36 328 over a 197 Clio, for example.

[Chris`I]

Or just get them out and see who's is the biggest....

 

Might be a quicker way to end it

[adam1942]

Currently I own both the 350Z GT and a Clio 197 R27 F1 edition (comes with Recaros and cup suspension/chassis)

 

There is a lot more torque in the 350Z which makes it 'easier' to drive under normal conditions that's not to say in the Clio when you rev to 8,000 rpm in every gear its not addictive or fun.. I've driven the Z twice so I'm not going to compare how the handling is but what I will say is when I first stepped in to the Clio it was clear to see that you can go stupidly fast round corners.. The Z felt loose and completely different but then again it will do its a RWD car and my first RWD car at that..

 

My point being that performance hot hatch FWD cars are completely different from performance RWD cars

 

I don't see the point in comparing as they are completely different, albeit both very enjoyable to drive.

[spursmaddave]

Or just get them out and see who's is the biggest....

 

Might be a quicker way to end it

 

As long as they don't post it on the forum

[Chris`I]

Or just get them out and see who's is the biggest....

 

Might be a quicker way to end it

 

As long as they don't post it on the forum

Yes they can keep it to PM

[docwra]

Sorry, it just winds me up when people post sweeping statements like "RWD is far superior overall" and then in the next sentence say "Ive never owned an FWD car". HOW CAN YOU KNOW THEN??

 

TBF this site isnt so bad for it, but the number of people Ive had tell me how to drift when they dont actually own a car at all, or that an exhaust and air filter have added 40hp to their car, or suggest that a VQ35 into a 200SX for instance is "easy mate, could do it in a weekend" becomes quite frustrating. Giving advice without actually having experience defeats the whole object of a BB for me.

 

Or just get them out and see who's is the biggest....

 

 

Believe it or not, there was once an argument on Driftworks where this actually happened. Still the single most incredible thread Ive seen, you wouldnt believe it.

[GT4 Zed]

Stuff

 

 

Stuff

 

 

 

 

You are both entitled to opinions. Bennet, you are not always correct so perhaps you could respect the opinion of docwra even though it differs from your own instead of arguing about it.

 

FWD, RWD, 4WD, MR, FR etc preferences are all subjective.

 

Maybe some people should get out and drive other cars instead of slating cars they've never driven.

 

 

Thanks for your points and yes sometimes i am can wrong and would put my hand up. But this was not about right and wrong.

As you rightly say its all a matter of subjectivity and thats what i essentially said and also stated my preference. Where did i "slate" anything?

I have not been uncouth with my arguments nor shown any disrespect for anyone so why the undertone suggesting so?

Debate is healty and stimulating and is sometimes opportunity all parties to learn and should be fun, civilised and good natured especially in an open forum like ours. If this is not encouraged thats Ok, but unbalanced or partial moderating is very unflattering.

Not to worry i'll keep schtum and away from any argument.

[Stew]

Stuff

 

 

Stuff

 

 

 

 

You are both entitled to opinions. Bennet, you are not always correct so perhaps you could respect the opinion of docwra even though it differs from your own instead of arguing about it.

 

FWD, RWD, 4WD, MR, FR etc preferences are all subjective.

 

Maybe some people should get out and drive other cars instead of slating cars they've never driven.

 

 

Thanks for your points and yes sometimes i am can wrong and would put my hand up. But this was not about right and wrong.

As you rightly say its all a matter of subjectivity and thats what i essentially said and also stated my preference. Where did i "slate" anything?

I have not been uncouth with my arguments nor shown any disrespect for anyone so why the undertone suggesting so?

Debate is healty and stimulating and is sometimes opportunity all parties to learn and should be fun, civilised and good natured especially in an open forum like ours. If this is not encouraged thats Ok, but unbalanced or partial moderating is very unflattering.

Not to worry i'll keep schtum and away from any argument.

 

 

I said 'Maybe some people should get out and drive other cars instead of slating cars they've never driven. :)' - I didn't direct that at you. I don't know what cars you have / have not driven. I very rarely assume anything so wouldn't direct that at you without having facts.

 

Debate is hugely healthy and can be great for learning and fun. Debate without respect for others opinion is just an argument.

 

There is no undertone. I find subtlety on the internet doesn't really work. If I thought you were out of line then you'd have known!

 

 

If you feel that my moderating is not up to par then I suggest that you either PM myself to discuss it or discuss it with another team member.

[Chris AME]

Driven both of these cars, nearly bought an st, but decided on the zed eventually as I don't need the extra seats my dad also owned an RS drove that a fair few times torque steer was a challenge on bumpy roads especially when overtaking, the front end is sharper than the zeds although the RS was brand new my zed is nearly 9 years old. It really is what your individual tastes and requirements are, best thing is to drive them both see what you prefer