Beavis Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I seeee.... so someone gives you a mouthful you have a right to inflict pain or physically damage them? So you've been out for the night with the girls Vik and Gary is picking you up, on his arrival he see's you been verbally abused by a drunk at the place you have arranged to be picked up from. The pisshead is threatning and abusive towards you and he wont let it drop. There is no one else around to assist or cant be bothered to help (normally the case). What happens next............ Look, I'm not suggesting that people should be running about sorting all their problems with violence, but a measured level of force can be the right response to a given situation. Have to agree to disagree I guess! Exactly +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy P Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 12 good men and true will decide the fate of "the big man" so that the ill-informed and unwashed (us) don't have to. And based on the opinions on here it'd be a split decision! Unfortunately I suspect the guy will either be issued an immediate caution or be dealt with by Magistrates... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zollburgers Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 It's further proof that we need a real change. People with no respect for the law who know there are no consequences to their actions is exactly why we had the riots. I'm glad to see the rioters are being charged and maybe they will think twice about doing it again. I'm also fairly certain the student will think twice too. He didn't have a ticket, was abusive and was happy to hold up a whole train full of people. He got everything he deserved, I only wish he would also be fined a lot too. Vik, I've seen police do far far worse to people they are restraining and all because that person has been very abusive or violent. Training will get you so far but people have emotions and a sense of justice. I'm glad some decide to act on it rather than doing nothing but complaining after the event that their train got held up by a mouthy student who didn't have a ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik54 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I seeee.... so someone gives you a mouthful you have a right to inflict pain or physically damage them? So you've been out for the night with the girls Vik and Gary is picking you up, on his arrival he see's you been verbally abused by a drunk at the place you have arranged to be picked up from. The pisshead is threatning and abusive towards you and he wont let it drop. There is no one else around to assist or cant be bothered to help (normally the case). What happens next............ Exactly +1 You haven't been out in Dundee before have you Dave? I'm a bit past getting situations like that but if if it did happen Gary would be too busy laughing at the verbal pasting said drunk would be getting from myself and 'the girls' - any 'girls' I would be out with are all trained in physical restraint and dealing with eejits ( remember we're all either youth workers or residential/secure care workers) so none of us would want to risk our careers on getting a criminal record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavis Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I seeee.... so someone gives you a mouthful you have a right to inflict pain or physically damage them? So you've been out for the night with the girls Vik and Gary is picking you up, on his arrival he see's you been verbally abused by a drunk at the place you have arranged to be picked up from. The pisshead is threatning and abusive towards you and he wont let it drop. There is no one else around to assist or cant be bothered to help (normally the case). What happens next............ Exactly +1 You haven't been out in Dundee before have you Dave? I'm a bit past getting situations like that but if if it did happen Gary would be too busy laughing at the verbal pasting said drunk would be getting from myself and 'the girls' - any 'girls' I would be out with are all trained in physical restraint and dealing with eejits ( remember we're all either youth workers or residential/secure care workers) so none of us would want to risk our careers on getting a criminal record. A politicians answer there Vik , oh and by the way a night out in Stoke prepare's you for most places in the world! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeroy Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 The way I see it, it was assault. Yeah, the wee scroat was being a wee scroat. But as Martin said, the tocket inspector should have walked away and got the transport police involved. Ive been on a number of trains where exactly that happened. What the situation does not justify is someone who has no vested interest in the situation, dragging the guy off the train and throwing him out the doors....twice. But he does have a vested interest, as do the other passengers on the train. I use trains daily and I'd have a vested interest too if it was me who wanted to get home after a hard days work / shopping / whatever. Yes the inspector reacted badly, but the kid played up and showed no respect for anyone on the train and that's why 'Big Man' did what he did. As has been mentioned the litmus test is the reaction of the travellers on the carriage and they seemed pretty happy with the result. The assault charge is a smack in the face for all of us who might hope that if we get into trouble one day, a have-a-go hero might helps us out. I watched the video a few days ago but did 'Big Man' ask the inspector if he wanted the kid removed from the train? If so surely the rail company would be partly answerable to charges? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leonk Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Have watched various copies of this with the volume up high and Big Man clearly asks the ticket inspector "do you want me to throw him off?" while pointing at the lad and the ticket inspector replies "yes". At the doors of the train other individuals step in to prevent the youth re entering the train. will be very interesting to see what the courts decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spursmaddave Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Unfortunately the 'big man' was a bit heavy handed and to be honest seemed to enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spursmaddave Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 On a happier note Mary just told me they have a new intake of scum from the riots, nice to know they will be spending Christmas in Wandsworth and not at home watching their looted plasmas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancer Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I really cannot understand how quick some people are to defend those in the wrong :S May be the 'Big Man' used a bit much force. MAYBE. But he appeared to be acting with good intent. I personally wouldn't have been inclined to lock him up. It seems clear to me from the video footage that most of the passengers on the train are happy with what happened. I'd be arguing that a prosecution is not in the public interest and I hope that is what the CPS decide. Did an assault occur? Yes, it did. Can't see why the kid wasn't locked up for a section 5 though. Fairly sure there will be some form of by-law offence for refusing to leave a train when so directed by a conductor. This stuff about cops being trained in restraint is all well and good, but when it comes down to it if somebody wasn't leaving the train we'd probably end up turfing them out in a fairly similar fashion. No use restraining him, we'd just have to drag him accross the floor face first then, not sure that would go down well. The kids bag is thrown onto the platform just after him, having said that I can believe that he may not have realised. Im only 26 myself but I cannot fathom the lack of respect from the younger generations, I wouldn't have dared speak to my elders like that. Aaaand i'm not sure what relevance his being a uni student has to anything? Are they above the law? DISCLAIMER: No insult intended, the above is my own personal opinion, nothing to do with my employer. I'll be back to bithcin' and moaning on Inspector Gadgets blog before you know it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maccaman Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 If there was a clerical error surely the student could have pointed this is out in a reasonable manner & asked the inspector how it could be resolved. The inspector could also have handled it in this manner but we don't know what problems he has daily with this type of incident. Continuous lack of respect, from whoever, certainly would taint your own respones. When the "Big Man" stepped in the student could have realised he physically was not going to have a choice but to leave the train. As for "throwing him on to the platform twice", I think that is stretching what really happened. Now, in our society of suing, I'm sure the claim will be physical & mental abuse, as I'm sure he will have had trouble sleeping or even travelling on a train after the incident. I have to agree that too much PC has allowed the lack of respect for authority to escalate to an unacceptable level. We had evidence of the softly, softly approach allowing the London riots to run out of control. Unfortunately this was not helped by the heavy handed & stupid action of one copper on the G5 demonstrations (I think) when that guy lost his life. I, for one, hope the "Big Guy" gets nothing more than a recommendation to watch what he does in official situations in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarnie Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I think the problem arose from the fact that the kid was not only been arrogant, cocky and a general ****, but also failed to communicate sufficiently, especially if he is an eductaed person. If there was a clerical error with his tickets, as an under graduate you'd think he'd be articulate enough to convey this to the conductor sufficiently, rather than telling an 70 year old man on the verge of a heart attack to **** OFF. If he had engaged his brain cells he would have known that being civil would be the only way to win out in this situation and keep other rail users onside. Instead, he alienated every other train user who now seemed royally pi**ed off that he was abusing the attendant AND had seemingly not paid for a journey that they had. He projected himself into a role of fare dodging scrote who has probably been to town on the rob and now wants a free lift home instead of the wronged intelligent young man he probably is. I too would condone the throwing off of the first character but not the second. As a result of the kids behaviour, he saw the public react accordingly. Someone acting like a scumbag gets treated like a scumbag. In hindsight perhaps the guy shouldn't have laid a hand on him but 'forcefully suggested' he leave the train. As a parent I see the video from a few angles. If that was my son and I saw this footage, I would be telling my son that he got what he deserved. I wouldn't like seeing my son man handled but I'd be advising him where he went wrong by not utilising his brain and speaking to the attendant cordialy and respectfully, and that eventually it would be proved that he was actually given the wrong tickets. If I watched footage of my son being apologetic, civil and respectful and then getting man handled off the train then yes, I'd be fuming and wanting the 'Big Man' charged and the rail company sued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dblock Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 +1 sarnie. I think he shouldn't get charged. If your on about people calling the police and what not come to the real world. He was being abusive to an older just doing his job. The jakey expected the police to be called and so on if he expected a bang in the puss he wouldn't have tried it. It's this soft touch approach which leads to people getting away with things like that. Tbh if that was me I'd be more scared of the beating my mum would give me You can't do anything for assault now. At school A teacher couldn't break up a fight for being charged with assault. We was watching a fight and these two pussies where scraping so the teacher grabbed them to separate them. They said there necks hurt and they are in agony cos the teacher grabbed them yet they where fine when knocking each other out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidnightRacer Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 +2 Sarnie. And I think its disgraceful that his parents would actually go on TV and say how hard done by he was. If that was my dad I'd have got a kick up the arse and told I had it coming. It was clear from the video that he could and should have handled himself better. He was being a cocky little get thinking he knew best when clearly he didn't. YES the big man was heavy handed but it would never have got that far if he had discussed it properly instead of being a dick. too many people think the world owes them a right to do what they want and while it perhaps wasn't the best approach to throw him to the ground the young lad should have taken it as a warning and realised the error of his ways. If people continually fail to educate their children and accept this "my children can find their own way in life" hippy approach then we are going to spiral even further out of control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rothers2901 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Just watched the you tube clip. The way i see it is, the train was in the station, it wasnt going anywhere. The conductor could have just simply rang fo some assistance either from a colleague or the police to remove the lad. Im sure that as a public place i.e the train, the employees or any other representative of the train company would have the right or authority to remove someone from their train if they feel the need to do so even by force if necessary (It happens all the time on football supporter trains). This is called a lawfull ejction and therefore the conductor would have had a defence in law providing it was justified and propotionate. The Big Man in my opinion had no right to do what he did (frustrating Yes). There were no threats of violence towards the connductor or to anyone else, nor any damage being done or any apprihension that anything would have been done so. Morally was it right? thats up for discussion, lawfully definately not. I'm not any legal expert on the laws north of the boarder, but what i do know, is that lots of laws covered in scotland are common law and this is to protect the public against breaches of the peace. In this case, my opinion is, a breach of the peace was clearly taking place. A good solicitor may be able to argue this fact. Being charged with an offence doesn't mean a conviction will be the ultimate outcome at court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds2000 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 +3 Sarnie I've only just ticked 30, so hardly over the hill (I tell myself) - my niece and a lot of my friends age from 18 to my age, all with varying backgrounds and education. Not a single one of them would behave in this manor - we have all been brought up with respect for authority, also the very thought of me being that little scroat and the shame that my family would feel would be worse than any turfing off. My friend is in the police force and can get some free trains but he always chooses to pay as when he is off duty he says situations like this are a nightmare to deal with, free ticket = ticket inspector knowing there is a PO onbaord, passing the buck = him filling out paperwork and then generally getting grief and no support for getting involved. On an Arriva train home near Wolves a month or so back 4 scroats were running away from the ticket inspector, they lit a joint up on the train and were getting off in Telford (the next stop) - the ticket inspector had to ignore them, if it had got physical it'd have been 4 against 1 and the transport police would not have got to Telford in time to do anything - in that case, I would happily have helped out. Him ignoring them meant they got free fares and the ticket inspector got grief off passengers whom amazingly found their voices once the disturbance had moved on...... society at times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeroy Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 The Big Man in my opinion had no right to do what he did (frustrating Yes). There were no threats of violence towards the connductor or to anyone else, nor any damage being done or any apprihension that anything would have been done so. Morally was it right? thats up for discussion, lawfully definately not. Of course you are right rothers but what about damage to society as a whole? This is why antisocial a-holes get away with what they do - the public (and in some cases authority figures) ignore what they're doing for fear or physical harm or reprisals in court for mis-practice. Clearly this PC attitude is a result of precedents where people have abused power, but scrotes know the system and bleed it dry. Morally, Big-Man was right. I just hope the court takes a fair view. The sad thing is that the little ***** who got thrown off will be claiming damages - I just hope he spends it on books for college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruddles Posted December 22, 2011 Author Share Posted December 22, 2011 Being a student certainly doesn't make you an educated person. University life is effectively just another 'time-passer' to keep kids in education and give them "hope" that when they finish they'll be the next Richard Branson. The 'Big-Guy' used force, but I don't think the kid would have walked off if he was asked nicely would he? The logic is this; how much force would you use to remove an abusive person who didn't want to be removed? In a perfect world the police would have been called and the train staff kept the kid there until they arrived, but for a train that has to adhere to (or at least marginally) to set arrival /departure times it is an unforseen circumstance, how long will the police take? I don't agree with "he was forcibly thrown to the ground", he wasn't he was 'pushed' from the train because that's the only way of removal and if the kid was moving forward at the time of being pushed then the force would be greater in forward movement. It's effectively now a video that will go out to all the criminally minded and non-law-abiding to show that they can profit from such and the more times the innocent are punished, the more they can get away with. I'm not angry or in a furure about this however, the decreasing attitude of the law-abiding and non-law-abiding alike quite depresses me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfman Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 +3 sarnie, i'm 24 and wouldn't think of acting like that. If i was that kid and my parents/family/girl friend saw me acting like that it'd be a very lonely existance! What ever happened to respect your elders and those in authority! Reminds me of a city and colour acoustic gig i was at recently (not much relevance i know) but two guys where drunk and being tw&ts. it's a sitting down and appreciating kinda place and half way through a song, the band stopped and asked them to leave. The band got abuse of the two drunkards and then had a few hundred angry fans to face as well as a few bouncers. We all cheer'd when they where chucked out and the gig went on. As similar to the train journey, somone may have not had a seat on that train and could have been sitting on the floor, as is done on busy trains. Imagine if you've paid and are sat on the floor and some scrote who hasn't paid is sat on that comfy seat and hasn't paid a penny, i know i'd be p£ssed off. But then "big man" did through the smack down on him, which was a bit much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 gone are the days when the local bobby or teacher would clip you round the back of the head for acting like a prat. parents were allowed to smack their children, you didn't need to fill in reams of paper work, or face a court case. as it was usually enough to restore the respect balance. but now with all these liberal namby pamby ness we've breed several generations of rude, abusive scroats. kids who talk back, show no respect, argue, and generally think they run the place. i think if you act like an articulate respectful human being you should be treated like one. if you act like a moronic ***** epect to get slapped down. sadly as a teacher i can;t do that, but i can write a nice list of students who could do with a slap. don't forget there are lots of nice kids, who actually out weigh the few muppets out there. and at the end of the day it all comes down to parenting. and i know you all hate stereotypes, but i could gaurentee every naughty student i've ever met has at least 1 of those stereo types if not more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waltzinblack Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 + many to both Sarnie and Rtbiscuit. Don't have a lot more to add tbh.. they both hit the nail squarely on the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tprice Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 This is wrong, WRONG, WRONG!!!! enough said! kid is an absolute ****. end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveW Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Gotta agree, got what he deserved not because of the clerical error but for the fact he acted like an arsehole. If this had happened to me when the conductor asked to see my ticket I would have politely explained what had happened and asked how could it be resolved so the train wouldn't be held up, not starting swearing and acting like a cocky little @*!# who needs a lesson in discipline! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxi-glasgow Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Can't believe all I am reading here. Big Man I don't think this would have happened in England, but we tend to get more people not taking sh1t up here. Just like the riots down in England, if that tried to be started up here the ordinary people would stand up for whats right. We have a history of standing against injustice. Christ, we even crushed the poll tax I can just see everyone up in arms when Smeato and the rest got stuck right into the terrorists who tried to bomb Glasgow Airport. Worrying about the offenders feelings and rights is what has put this country where it is today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy P Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Worrying about the offenders feelings and rights is what has put this country where it is today. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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