Teachers' Strikes

[Lincolnbaggie]

I have to agree with Chris Chesterfield on this one.

 

I don't blame the teachers (or any others who actually do the work in the public sector) for complaining about the increased contributions and extended working life, but they have to get real. The country cannot afford to keep giving hugely inflated public sector pension benefits when there is no money to pay for it. Where do these people expect it to come from? I assume they think that my taxes should go up to cover it?

 

All this rubbish about public sector pay being less than in the private sector doesn't hold anymore either. Most teachers, policemen, council workers etc get far more than the average salary in this part of the country. Council workers get time off in lieu for every five minutes overtime they work, plus most take far more sick pay than anyone in the private sector (you certainly couldn't go off with stress for 6 months in the private sector on full pay), coupled with far more holiday entitlement... Nobody I know in the private sector gets overtime anymore, and most do far more than their contracted hours and very rarely take all their holiday entitlement.

 

I think the problem is that most public sector workers have never worked in the private sector and make assumptions that the whole country has the same benefits that they do.

 

As a self-employed person I have to adjust to the financial situation the country finds itself in - if I put my rates up I lose clients; my pension pot is practically worthless even though I contribute over 5 grand every year; basically my income has fallen about 20% in real terms over the last 5 years. Do I go on strike? No, I grin and bear it, which is what the whole country has got to do. Otherwise we are going to end up flat broke (more than we are already) and nobody will get anything.

 

It's a 3% increase in contributions FFS - mine goes up 5% automatically every year and it's still worth sweet FA.

 

Get in the real world and stop winging that everything is unfair - it's the same for all of us

 

(I do believe that the money wasted by the public sector/government/quangos etc on ridiculous schemes that never get launched coupled with the stupid number of people employed by the state doing jobs that shouldn't really exist and all the beaurocracy etc could cover some of the deficits and is a disgrace, but that's a different argument)

[Bockaaarck]

I just wish the "Private" sector went on strike back in the day when Gordon Broon robbed their pension pots in 1997! He single handedly laid the foundations to this country's pension woes, looked after the "City", take all the peasants cash and gave it to them to play with, he's the real ***** in all this.

 

Now private and public pensions are being affected by the little publicised act that has changed the way your pension is index linked, not RPI anymore, it's now CPI, which just happens to be a lower rate

 

I'm spending every penny I earn, saving f*ck all, as my savings continue to lose money even in the highest paying ISA's etc, I'm going to smoke and drink more, be a fat **** and be a general pest to the state, so there!!!

 

+1 You my friend have hit the nail right on the head. Many companies now have huge pension black holes ever since the 'Brown Menace' stopped pension tax relief in the 1997 budget, costing 'savers' well over £100 Billion (possibly now more than £150 Billion). He also orchestrated the sale of up to 60% of this countries gold reserve between 99 through to 02, but only after he announcing to the markets he was going to do so! By a strange co-incidence the price of gold dropped and our bullion was sold near the bottom of the market....almost 400 tonnes of it, going cheap as chips. What an utter *****

 

What I'm so angry about is in his 2006 Manion House speach Brown, flattering business leaders, bankers and ministers all sat together, praised the light touch regulation surrounding the financial industry, raising it up as an example of how business should be done allowing room for innovation, growth, opportunity etc. It's exactly this 'light touch' regulation (although using that word in this context is a joke) and other 'comedy' proposals and approaches which has partially led to the near financial collapse of the western world, and don't get me started on things like credit default swaps

 

I'm not Red, Blue or Gold, so I have no axe to grind or flag to wave. In my view Brown and his cronies, along with the totally incompetent political opposition at the time (and those in power now, except mybe Vince Cable) bear significant responsibility for the economic situation which has arrisen. That's not to say we didn't play our part, perhaps not individually, but as the great British public, spending money that wasn't there, on stuff we didn't need, having the time of our lives.

 

The party is over and now the hangover is kicking in. I get so angry about it because it could have been prevented, if there was the economic wisdom and political will at the time. We may not have been in a position where Nurses, Teachers and the like were having to strike because the powers that be have already financially decimated the private sector

 

*...and breathe....*

 

All that being said the pension purse of the public sector has been a sword of damocles hanging over successive government for some time. I think it does need to change, mainly because there just isn't any money left, this country is effectively bankrupt. However is the method and the manner in which its done. If the government want to backdate these changes then I think that is totally undfair. Someone may have chosen a career and financial path which they believed would satisfy them professionally and provide for their lie after work. To suddenly change the conditions of the deal is wrong, that person, had they known conditions of their pension were going to change, may have chosen a differetn career path, gone for promotion over career satisfaction over financial security.

 

I guess the only fair way to do it is to introduce a sliding increase in contributions, age group banded pension entitlements as to when you can claim, alterations to future entitlement in 5 - 10 years time, it's very difficult. Let's not forget that when Public and Private sector are compared in relation to earnings that the public sector doesn't include "shop assistant", "burger flipper", "toilet attendant" etc which we can realistically expect to be the least well paid jobs. A lot of public sector employees have degree educations, have professional qualifications and as a result that would increase their relative salary scale. The 'average' public sector doesn't get £50k a year and doesn't get a 'gold plated' pension, despite what we frequently believe. I have worked as a consultant in both Public and Private sector and I an honestly say the difference in the quality of people and their work ethic is negligable.

 

What is different is the accountability, certainly in terms of management resposibility for budgetry and financial matters. Many parts of the public sector I have worked with are shafted by management incompetance rather than lack of worker effort. If the rot is set in at the top, it's very hard to change from the lower levels. They are also stimied by inefficient process and procedure which have often been put in place by management and senior management who have no concept of how things actually work, and they make things worse by introducing their 'blue sky thinking' magical concepts.

 

I think we all have to face facts, the good times are over, austerity is here to stay for some time and we have to get used to dealing with it. I'm going to roll my sleaves up and do a Tom and Barbara....."Now where am I going to plant those spuds and beans and where can I keep me chickens?"

 

EDITED TO ADD: Chesterfields figures and calculations are very interesting and tell the real story behind this issue. There won't be any money left unless change is made now, it's hard but it has to happen, even now it may be too late.

 

Also, if I was a Teacher would I strike..... I wouldn't go in, but I would probably be at home marking, or doing lesson planning or something like that.

[garetgax]

My 2 penneth...............

 

As many on here have stated most in the private sector have been feeling the pain for some time. I've been made redundant once during this mess (thankfully got another role straight away......many havent been so lucky) havent had a pay rise or bonus (despite personally earning both the business's ive worked for in the last 3 years over 500k clear profit after tax), have a pension that quite frankly is pretty much worthless. I earn less than most teachers and certainly ones my age and I am probably more qualified than they are too.

 

Its worth pointing out not all public sector workers dont put the miles in ,my wife is a nurse so I sympathise but dont agree with striking, she cant strike and the changes within the NHS (protected my arse cameron) more than justify work to rule if nothing more. SHe works well over her contracted hours and has done for the last decade.

 

The bottom line though for all you folks in the public sector whinging is that your work conditions, hours, holiday entitlement and pension ( even the revised one your resisting against) and now pay (the disparity between public and private pay scales has diminished significantly over the last few years) make you all in a far better position than most people out in the real world . So get a grip, man up, deal with it etc as you need to wake up and smell the coffee. THERE ISNT ENOUGH MONEY!!!!!! OH and how would you like it if you had to keep taking unpaid leave to look after your kids because of someone like you wanted their cake and eat it? (Doesnt affect me but it would pee me off)

 

over.

 

Final point .....Bock I believe it will effectively be a sliding scale as I understand it the changes will take effect from 2015 . So effectively if youve just started in the last few years you'll be greatly affected and if your at the end of your career youll not be affected at all.

[Vik54]

Told ya Rich - can of worms

 

Points still remain - LGPS is not a 'fat pension' - and majority of public sector salaries are relatively less than private sector- pay freezes aside before the current economy.

If the average Public Sector salary is around 21k ( I am not only talking only teachers here) there needs to be adjustment made to the 'average salary' pension proposals currently on the table.

What about lower paid (sub 16k) and part time staff the vast majority of whom are women who will also more than likely take maternity leave at some point in their career? One of the main points of final salary schemes was that they were fairer to those employees.

The proposals being made at the moment trample on things that were fought for as part of equal opps.

I completely agree we all need to take it on the chin - I also think all any Union members want to see is some discussion and appreciation that the Govt can't treat all PS employees as one homogenous mass.

I would propose that they make anyone earning over £35k take a private pension and ensure that those earning less than £21k have their final salary rights preserved.

[Vik54]

I am a maintenance engineer at the dwp site and totally agree with the government bringing the public sector in line with the rest of us they have had it to good for to long, when they get down to my level of pension maybe then al have sympathy for them but till then **** em , they never backed the average Joe when we fighted so why should we give a **** about them . Did you no when dwp staff retire they get 3/4 of there final salary which is a minimum of 20k and could retire at 50 they have crazy pensions.

so why should they get these benefit ???

why can't they pay the same as us ??

why should they be able to retire earlyer than the rest of us ???

This hole thing pisses me off cause they think there hard done by because finally there little bubble has burst . Welcome to the real world

 

what utter p*sh!!

If they manage to get early retirement at 55 they do not get their pension immediately- they get a lump sum and then a reduced pension at statutory age And if they've managed to hit £20k they've worked long and hard for it

[Chesterfield]

chesterfield i found that extremely helpful, your there first person thats expalined the numbers and put some of the terms in a way i can understand. if i'm honest i don't understand alot of the pension talk and waht 1/60 meant etc and how it panned out.

 

like i said i don't know which way i'm going with my decisions, but its nice to see some straight numbers.

 

what i don't understand is that the old scheme used to work for teachers and has done for many decades, so where did it go wrong. isn't the pot smaller as it was raided on several occassions for other things and the mney never put back in?

 

 

1/60th 1/80th etc etc in relation to a final salary scheme, means that for each year of service you put in, your pension increases by 1/60th, 1/80th etc of your final salary.

Example - if you pay in for 25 years, and your scheme is 1/60th then you have 25/60ths of your final salary as a pension. If your final salary was £60k, then your pension would be £25k after 40 years (based on a 1/60th scheme).

 

The old scheme used to work, becuase to cut it short, people died younger and they didn't always have this culture of guaranteed/expected pay rises.

 

It actually makes me laugh how the public sector expect guaranteed pay rises year on year and also want a final salary pension scheme. How exactly can those two co-exist ever. Its just mathematicaly impossible.

 

example:

 

Start on £20k, pay rise of just 2% per year for 40 years, gives a final salary of £43,294.

So for your first year in the job, your contributions were 6.1% of £20k. The employer paid 14.1% of £20k. Yet your pension after 40 years employment is now 40/60ths of £43,294 or £28,862.

 

One year after retirement will use up almost the entire contributions made (by the employee and the employer) in your first 7 years work. The entire contributions over the 40 years are £247,648. But because its a final salary scheme, now paying just shy of £29k, the money will run out in just over 8.5 years. So live until 74 and there is no money left.

 

Thats a whole 9 years less than the first example I gave and only based on 2% pay rise per annum.

 

Using the same starting salary and a 3% pay rise per annum the money at retirement will run out in 7.3 years. At 4% per annum it runs out in just over 6 years.

[coldel]

I am all for paying public sector at the same level as private, how you would do that I am not entirely sure (how do you suddenly re-evaluate a salary in that way?). Just be prepared for a huge shock, 9% pension payment, that's the absolute minimum and if you want a pension that is somewhere like 75% as much as you would get under a public pension you are probably wanting to at least double that percentage payment (just having a punt there based on skim reading other material but you get the gist).

 

Ironically if you type in teacher salary into google

http://www.tda.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/salary/teaching-salary-scales.aspx

 

I was quite surprised, even by the basic pay levels, in the private sector with a degree in economics and stats, a years placement experience and a levels in maths stats and business I managed to scrape a job on £14k a year (albeit back in 1998!) - the industry I am in has a complex pay structure, probably 80% earn less than £30k and the rest earn a fair whack more. It takes a good 6-8 years of work to get over that £30k mark. These aren't stupid people either, all degree educated, all working ridiculous hours. I think unfortunately there is as much a misconception about public sector as there is about this 'rich' private sector who get paid so much more, I am afraid it just isn't true anymore - in my industry there have been successive years (four now) of pay freezes whilst the public sector get their guaranteed percentage, surely that must say something about the level of pay disparity between the two.

[Lincolnbaggie]

So for your first year in the job, your contributions were 6.1% of £20k. The employer paid 14.1% of £20k.

 

Chrsi, shouldn't you change the words "The employer" to "We"?

[Lincolnbaggie]

LGPS is not a 'fat pension'

 

It's a hell of a lot fatter than anything you get with a personal pension

 

Also, according to figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS), workers in the public sector are now being paid more than £2,000 extra a year compared with employees in the private sector. The average public sector worker was paid £23,660 a year, compared with private sector workers who were paid £21,528 a year, in the three months to the end of November.

[rtbiscuit]

i think with chesterfields numbers the on ething it doesn't take in to account is the number of say teachers who actually do a full term of 35-40 years teaching.

 

statistically 40% of newly qualified teachers quit within 4 years.

 

i'd say something like 65-75% of staff are female, of which at a guess 50% of them would take maternity leave at least once in their career, and many leave the profession for far longer to raise kids.

 

in the last 7 years i've only seen 3 teachers retire at 60 who have put in 38+ years of teaching.

 

also taking into account the amount of teaching staff who join later in their working career after leaving the private sector. so maybe only paying in for half that time and claiming alot less on the pension.

 

i'm not disagreeing with any of the points raised earlier and do agree with alot of what being said. i'm not like alot of my colleagues; as i said ealier i am not in a union. and one of the reasons i posted was to learn more info from both sides of the story.

 

 

as for the comments earlier that as a teacher my pay is the same as those in industry is not true, there were 25 people on my uni course, so these people all have the same traininng background as me. on average i earn between 5-10K less a year than they do.

 

if i compare my salary to a forum member on here i know who works in engineering, he earns the same as me but is 5 years younger than me, and has only been in the industry a short time.

 

as for national statisitic comparisons they should be on a like for like career match hence why i used my degree colleagues as a more accurate comparison.

[coldel]

I am sure lots of private sector workers would trade in 5-10 percent of their pay to get public sector benefits

[rtbiscuit]

I am sure lots of private sector workers would trade in 5-10 percent of their pay to get public sector benefits

 

this is within the first 10 years of my career, the gap will only grow

[Chesterfield]

Sorry Vik, but in my opinion the local government pension scheme most certainly is a fat pension.

 

Its the same 1/60th as the teachers scheme I based calculations on before. For service before April 08, it was 1/80th with a 3/80ths lump sum! 40 years sevice at 30K (no pay rises) based on the old system will generate total contributions of £246000. It will also generate a pension of £15,000 and a lump sum of £45,000 - the money will run out in 13 years (age 78)

 

On the new system, that same service/salary leaves a pension of £20,000 - the money will run out in just over 12 years.

 

 

Ive even stumbled across a presentation by the ATL teachers union on proposed strike action and discussing the proposed changes. The examples they use to illustate their "point" that it isnt fair are just laughable. They also go so far as to say the changes are being made to remove 2.8Bn from the public sector pension scheme, and to reduce the budget deficit.

 

The Local Government pension scheme in 2007 was already £27Bn in deficit. In 2011 its ballooned to now over £70Bn. These changes arent all about robbing the pensions of the public sector to help pay for the budget deficit for everyone. These changes are completely and utterly necessary to ensure the pension scheme can still exist at all.

 

As for women taking maternity pay - yes they will, but that is their choice. Just like myself and Tracy have waited until we are financially sound enough to begin even thinking about a family, why shouldnt everyone else. Or should people be able to pop a kid out whenever they like and just expect everyone around them (including the employer) to pick up the tab? Ive got someone on maternity leave at present - sure we get to claim most of the money we pay out back, but not all of it. And who is doing the work while that person is off - little work faries that visit in the night?, or could it be the temp I've got in at just under £20k? Whos paying for that then?

 

Oh - and as for public sector wages being lower than in the private sector. That may be true for Doctors/surgeons etc - but have a read of this.... And the gap has grown since this was published in 2010, due to the public sectors unrest if they dont get a pay rise while the economy is crashing.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... r-pay.html

 

People in the public sector have a higher average salary than in the private sector. So all this "we get paid less on average so we should keep the pension perk" is just a complete load of carp spouted by the union leaders to safeguard their own golden handshakes.

[Ekona]

My missus is an NQT in primary, and is a member of one of the unions who went on strike yesterday. She still went into work because she didn't vote for the strike.

 

I've never been prouder of her for standing up for her own principles.

[rtbiscuit]

national statistics don't campare like for like people, yes you compare my degree level posistion with a GCSE qualified burger flipper, then yes i will earn more than them.

 

if you compare my salary to that of a doctor or lawyer who train for only a small amount of time more than i (perosnally) did, then they earn a hell of a lot more than i do.

 

i compared a qualified engineer in industry from a similiar background to a qualifed engineer in teaching. on average i earn less. fact.

 

as so many people like to do on other threads, statisitcs mean crap all as they can be made to fit what ever purpose you want them to.

[coldel]

I am sure lots of private sector workers would trade in 5-10 percent of their pay to get public sector benefits

 

this is within the first 10 years of my career, the gap will only grow

 

I am not aware of your circumstances so can only comment generally. I would think someone in engineering starts off with relatively smaller levels of responsibility then moves up these levels with promotion and with it comes pay rises. Similarly to teachers if I read the scales I put on the link earlier, some of those pay hikes between levels of responsibility are huge - I could only dream of being on a max head teachers salary, anyway...

 

Public sector work seems (and please do correct me if I am wrong) to be guaranteed at inflation or above inflation pay rises every year where private sector most certainly is not, in the industry I work in as I say there have been pay freezes for years now, my last annual pay rise was 2004.

 

I can only assume therefore that the gap increasing you refer to would come from the promotions in the private sector - someone not getting promoted will not out perform public sector workers in pay terms, in fact it will close. I can understand an experienced classroom teacher is better than an inexperienced classroom teacher but effectively they are doing the same job whereas your promoted engineer instead of making sure the pavement is straight is now building bridges a mile long and being paid more for it.

 

That said, I am always the first to harp on about 'great teachers I remember...' so don't by any means underestimate the value of a good teacher...

[nicon2k]

I know its a separate point aside from remuneration, but wasn't there a report last week stating that 50% of schools are failing to meet their targets? I was in the education system not so long ago and i was able to see with my own eyes, the standard to teaching and the quality of what was being taught falling.

 

I work in the private sector and i would expect action to be taken if i was failing to meet targets that were set.

 

I don't envy teachers, they have a very hard job. You could take my salary, double it and then double it again and i would still not want to face a class full of scrots. However, there is no getting away from the fact that the nature of their job allows them many advantages over other jobs. The main one of these advantages being the holidays. Yes, you may have to do a bit of marking and Yes, you may have to plan some lessons but you are still free to do this on your own time and you can't seriously expect people to believe that this is anything other then a minor interruption to your otherwise free time.

 

As a side note, I hope RTBiscuit uses better spelling, punctuation and grammar when teaching his class then he does on the forum.

[JetSet]

 

what i don't understand is that the old scheme used to work for teachers and has done for many decades, so where did it go wrong. isn't the pot smaller as it was raided on several occassions for other things and the mney never put back in?

 

The thing about pension funds is that the money doesn't sit there in the bank, it gets invested. Bad investments and the recent financial crash meant that pension pots shrunk by huge amounts. This is just one of the factors involved.

 

Pete

[coldel]

Anyway Rich, shouldn't you be working!

[Husky]

a bit of marking and Yes, you may have to plan some lessons.

 

Really not "a bit" and "some", it's a rediculous amount as class sizes are far larger than they should be. If you say that then you clearly don't know any teachers, I know a fair amount and many of them rarely get to come out to play.

 

As a side note, I hope RTBiscuit uses better spelling, punctuation and grammar when teaching his class then he does on the forum.

 

He teaches tech and is dislexic... Not seeing how that is a fair comment.

[Chesterfield]

In many cases it doesnt sit anywhere now, as there is more going out than coming in.

 

Also we are comparing averages. Average salaries in the private sector are lower.

 

If we compare the specifics of a qualified engineer who chooses to teach, and a qualified engineer who chooses to take a position in the private sector, then yes - they may earn more. But what about the pensions?

 

Add up everything they take home after tax for both, then add in the pensions they both get, and Ill assure you that even after any changes proposed the public sector will still end up with much more in total than the private sector employee.

 

In order to obtain the same pension benefit, the private sector employee would have to put in about three times as much to a private pension.

 

So for a worker starting out on 22k, its a contribution of £176 a month (at a new higher contribution level of 9.6%). The private sector employee would need to put in an extra £300 a month, so £476 in total - or about one third of their take home pay

 

Is the basic salary 33% higher in the private sector? And dont forget you would then get clobbered by the higher rate of income tax too.... Oh and your employer wont be sticking their hand in their pockets for 14% contributions either.

 

So - if the public sector want final salary schemes, and they want annual pay rises. Just tell us where we should get the money from and the problem goes away. Simples.

 

Id actually propose a scheme whereby if public sector workers think that after these proposed changes they will be worse off and no better than the private sector they if they can prove they are able to get and pass an interview in the private sector and be offered the job - then the public sector will match that pay scale they would have received in the private sector role, but remove their public sector pension scheme and let them have a private one. Any volunteers? Thought not.

[rtbiscuit]

Coldel - teachers are currnently on a pay freeze, have been for 2 years now, and no sign of when it will lift, have no issue with that; we all have to do our part.

 

nickon2k - i am dyslexic, i don't teach english and i'm paid for my extensive subject knowledge in engineering. but when i write on a forum, i'm not that bothered about going back to check things as its just a forum. (my use of language as a teacher and my lack of ability to spell properly is another debate really) personally it doesnt stop me from doing my job, and i have more subject knowledge than alot of my colleages. as i've actually been in industry.

 

falling standards - i'd put alot of that on the falling quality of students; which can be traced back to the lack of parenting that goes on at home (not in all cases, and we do have lovely kids as well) there is a very visible slide in the lack of behaviour in kids over the last 10 years, and not alot we as teachers can do about it.

 

also we're expected to do the job of the parents when they can;t be bothered, i reckon only about 65% of my time is actually spent teaching, i lose a lot of time to paper work, marking, and dealing with students. as well as all the other wonderful inititive that get fed back from whitehall.

[Husky]

 

 

all in jest of course

[rtbiscuit]

Id actually propose a scheme whereby if public sector workers think that after these proposed changes they will be worse off and no better than the private sector they if they can prove they are able to get and pass an interview in the private sector and be offered the job - then the public sector will match that pay scale they would have received in the private sector role, but remove their public sector pension scheme and let them have a private one. Any volunteers? Thought not.

 

i'm seriously considering going back into industry as i can earn and make alot more money, and still have a similiar pension setup.

 

i've managed to setup a property portfolio for myself and my wifes retirement, that was payed for with the money i earnt in the private sector by the way would never have been able to do that with my teaching salary.

 

i know nothing is set in stone so i'm putting things in place to cover us if things like our pensions disappear, or if NI no longer exsists. etc.

 

without sounding morbid or insensitive, we're overdue an epidemic/pandemic or world war, it has a major effect on population numbers and often resets a balance. not saying its a good thing, and i wouldn't want one, but its possibly t eh only way to control growing population numbers.

[Ekona]

I don't care if it's 5 pages in already, this thread needs a poll. I'm going to add one, if for nothing else than my own curiosity.

 

Sorry Rich to abuse your thread