Stew Posted August 2, 2010 Author Share Posted August 2, 2010 Top, bottom and side margins (minimum) - 13 mm This is the one that I think the policeman has got wrong. My interpretation is that a margin of 13mm must be applied on top and bottom of all characters and that each end (before first character and after last character) must also have a 13mm margin. I think your wrong mate. It may be 13mm, but 13mm to what? The border? The edge of the plate? I think your confusing what the minimum spacing around the letters should be with what the actual dimensions of the whole plate should be........it may be a minimum of 13mm around the top, bottom, left and right of your letters but that doesn't then equate to the size of the plate you can use................ The 13mm is the minimum from the edge of the plate to the outermost extremity of the first / last and top/ bottom of the characters. So how can a plate manufacturer make a plate that is totally legal (documents sent/shown to verify) but not 'standard' dimensions? Why do the DVLA issued regulations state all these minimum and maximums but not that the plate must be XXXmm x XXXmm when it would clear up all interpretation? I have no idea why if the plate has to be a 'standard' size why it is not mentioned in the regs issued by the traffic police themselves???? best to conform ..... what's the problem ? Conform to what exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarnie Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 The 13mm is the minimum from the edge of the plate to the outermost extremity of the first / last and top/ bottom of the character. Where does it say this, as as far as I can see it only you who interprets it this way........ Most of you will know that I have my own plate that I blatantly mis-space and don't care and gladly pay the £30 fines, just pointing out where I think Stew is getting it wrong....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATTAK Z Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 Conform to what exactly? Good question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Posted August 2, 2010 Author Share Posted August 2, 2010 The 13mm is the minimum from the edge of the plate to the outermost extremity of the first / last and top/ bottom of the character. Where does it say this, as as far as I can see it only you who interprets it this way........ Most of you will know that I have my own plate that I blatantly mis-space and don't care and gladly pay the £30 fines, just pointing out where I think Stew is getting it wrong....... That's why I asked if I was misinterpreting the regs. If I'm wrong I'll happily order a new plate. I just want some jumped up ill informed ass telling me what to do when it's wrong. It doesn't state the edge of the plate to the edge of the letter, what is a margin in microsoft word?. I mentioned earlier that I had guidance from the traffics on this before. I saw where they measured (and photographed for evidence) and I'm sure that's what it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATTAK Z Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 Does anyone know of any instance of a plate being taken away from an individual due to persistent misrepresentation on the vehicle ? ........ i.e. the ultimate penalty that the authorities can impose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 What Stew says is right - however you cant apply the pre 1st Sept 2001 rules. Its the date the plate was fitted, not the date prefix of the plate itself, therefor the following will apply: Character Height 79 mm Character Width (except the figure 1 or letter I) 50 mm Character stroke 14 mm Space between characters 11 mm Space between groups 33 mm Top, bottom, and side margins (minimum) 11 mm Space between vertical lines 19 mm The plate itself does NOT have to be a standard size. (otherwise there are several thousand Rover 75 owners and Landrover owners in for a shock). The plate must provide the borders and spacing as per the above, but if a mark has less than the 7 standard characters, it can be smaller. Hence the "minimum" in the margins statement - a standard plate with a short registration will meet these "minimum" levels. If it were a fixed 11mm border rather than minimum 11mm, all shorter registrations would require trimmed plates, otherwise the 100mm+ borders left and right would not conform. What you cant do is cut down a large plate to make it a small one, as you will trim off the BS mark, which along with the manufacturers details, need to be displayed to conform to standards. heres an example of a short plate, perfectly legal: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Posted August 2, 2010 Author Share Posted August 2, 2010 Thanks Chris. As you know that is what my plate looks like. I bought the same for Jaynes car too so I'd be in trouble if she got done. It's easy to misinterpret guidelines when it's all text and no pictures. I'm an Engineer so need pictures! I have sent a query to my local traffics so I can have the answer on me along with a copy of the regulations in my car incase this officer decides to come after me again. If the traffics say I'm wrong I'll order a new plate. Probably....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLumen Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 I've had quick dig through the Police Natonal Legal Database and basically I cannot see a width requirment for the plate so I think Chesterfield is pretty much spot on. You can have a shorter plate if you have less than the standard number of charicters, as long as its still a legal plate IE not home modified. In general officers will not know the full legal requirement for everything they encounter it would be like trying to learn wikipedia, its just not possible. Traffic officers will have more specific information. In this case the following is relevent: S432 / Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001 Summary and Index 2 Registration marks / plates - general interpretation 3 Exempt vehicles 4 Interpretation of regulations 4 -11 5 Fixing of rear reg plates on or after the relevant date 6 Fixing of front reg plates on vehicles registered on or after the relevant date 7 Fixing of reg plates on vehicles registered on or after the relevant date 8 Fixing of reg plates on works trucks, road rollers and agricultural machines 9 Lighting of rear registration plates 10 Specifications for registration plates 11 Further requirements for registration plates 12 Registration marks - interpretation of regulations 12 -15 13 Registration marks - layout 14 Size and spacing of characters 14A Size and spacing of characters - special cases 15 Style of characters 16 International distinguishing signs and other material 18 Savings for vehicles constructed before 1st January 1973 19 Offences Schedule 2 - requirements for registration plates Schedule 3 - permitted layouts of registration marks but this in its self is several pages long, the relevent sections being picked up by Chesterfield. I can post if requried but you'll all be asleep before you get to the end, you can ask to see the guidance that an officer is refering to but unless they have mobile data terminals, you'll be popping along to the closest station to see the info. In general police are pretty reasonable if your plate can be read and have its picture taken. The reason they challenge this use is not because they want to target drivers who like a show type plate but because these are exaclty the tactics that drug dealers, human trafficers, terrorist groups and a whole host of other seriously undesirable types use to avoid detection from systems like ANPR. Perhaps this will help some understand the reasons behind police stops or maybe they think that serious criminals should also be let off? Its not about making money from fines its about protecting people. Sorry I'll get down off my box now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 The reason they challenge this use is not because they want to target drivers who like a show type plate but because these are exaclty the tactics that drug dealers, human trafficers, terrorist groups and a whole host of other seriously undesirable types use to avoid detection from systems like ANPR. Personally I think that bit is wrong. Ive been pulled for a plate that is perfectly legible by ANPR, but a slight spacing change. No screws, tape or other alterations just one character moved by 15mm so its closer to the last three letters than the first one. If the plate is legible, detectable by ANPR and on a car that is hardly going to be used if you wish to avoid attention/detection (bright yellow 350z), then why the ticket. Its for the stats. Crime detected, Crime resolved. I know they exist, the police know they exist, everyone knows they exist. And when the regional force is looking like they may need a bit of a boost to make sure they exceed their targets - the motorists will know they exist too. Im also afraid that the "no pay rises for the public sector" may increase this sort of activity too, as bonuses will no doubt be rife in order to circumvent the no pay rise policy. Which means those targets will need exceeding by a good margin. My advice is to ensure your cars are sqeuaky clean, as we could see a period of trivial offences being ticketed every time. Of course this will be publicised as a "zero tolerance campaign" or a "crackdown to prevent an epidemic" etc etc. The authorities must think us general public have three heads and are the result of cousins marrying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 Ah, I see you've been to Norfolk too then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maz0 Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 The reason they challenge this use is not because they want to target drivers who like a show type plate but because these are exaclty the tactics that drug dealers, human trafficers, terrorist groups and a whole host of other seriously undesirable types use to avoid detection from systems like ANPR. Personally I think that bit is wrong. Ive been pulled for a plate that is perfectly legible by ANPR, but a slight spacing change. No screws, tape or other alterations just one character moved by 15mm so its closer to the last three letters than the first one. If the plate is legible, detectable by ANPR and on a car that is hardly going to be used if you wish to avoid attention/detection (bright yellow 350z), then why the ticket. Its for the stats. Crime detected, Crime resolved. I know they exist, the police know they exist, everyone knows they exist. And when the regional force is looking like they may need a bit of a boost to make sure they exceed their targets - the motorists will know they exist too. Im also afraid that the "no pay rises for the public sector" may increase this sort of activity too, as bonuses will no doubt be rife in order to circumvent the no pay rise policy. Which means those targets will need exceeding by a good margin. My advice is to ensure your cars are sqeuaky clean, as we could see a period of trivial offences being ticketed every time. Of course this will be publicised as a "zero tolerance campaign" or a "crackdown to prevent an epidemic" etc etc. The authorities must think us general public have three heads and are the result of cousins marrying. Didn't you vote the public sector pay freezers in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLumen Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 Im also afraid that the "no pay rises for the public sector" may increase this sort of activity too, as bonuses will no doubt be rife in order to circumvent the no pay rise policy. Which means those targets will need exceeding by a good margin. Ok, I guess were talking about performance related pay here, not something I'm entitled to as civilian staff but I'll ask the traffic boys if you can get it by nabbing lots of slightly dodgy plates. I suspect not but I'll check for you after all were accountable to the public Like many topics this is far from simple and could turn into very long debate best taken up at an event over a cool beer and a plate of chips, I'm going to zedfest on the 20th hding round the back somewhere I'll explain why I'm right about my first post, I love a good debate Clearly I can't explain all the laws because some of them are bonkers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maz0 Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 Im also afraid that the "no pay rises for the public sector" may increase this sort of activity too, as bonuses will no doubt be rife in order to circumvent the no pay rise policy. Which means those targets will need exceeding by a good margin. Ok, I guess were talking about performance related pay here, not something I'm entitled to as civilian staff but I'll ask the traffic boys if you can get it by nabbing lots of slightly dodgy plates. I suspect not but I'll check for you after all were accountable to the public Like many topics this is far from simple and could turn into very long debate best taken up at an event over a cool beer and a plate of chips, I'm going to zedfest on the 20th hding round the back somewhere I'll explain why I'm right about my first post, I love a good debate Clearly I can't explain all the laws because some of them are bonkers Traffic up here work on a point's system unlike regular beat officers. More point's equals targets being met quicker, and more targets being met equals more bonuses for those in the positions to receive them, generally superintendent + rank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLumen Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 good old super nintendos as I like to call them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Posted August 5, 2010 Author Share Posted August 5, 2010 My issue the whole time with this incident was the fact that I was told I was wrong (quite rudely) without any this copper having any knowledge of the law I was 'breaking' and his general attitude. Well I hope he went and read the rules (not that I'd EVER get an apology) and now knows the law. All I can say is that if my other half falls preggers I'm hunting him down so she can pee in his hat. Oh and his attitude has had a very negative impact on my attitude towards the police. Not the best result of a donut run to tesco that officer has ever had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLumen Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 Ah now that is a diffrent matter, the officer is required to treat you with respect and anwser your questions while being as helpful as possible. On this note you have a right to complain, the police are here to deliver a service and as such we are expected to meet certain standards. You would be justifed to complain to the force about the officers conduct and attitude and I would encourage you to do so. Police who fail to meet basic stanards of curtosy and customer service have no business in todays police force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunsetZed Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 I seem to remember Rover issuing plates on some 75's that weren't standard size, I think they were probably bigger than standard but still if the manufacturer issues 'non standard sized plates' I'd hope they'd done some research into the legality of said plates and concluded that these were legal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Posted August 5, 2010 Author Share Posted August 5, 2010 Ah now that is a diffrent matter, the officer is required to treat you with respect and anwser your questions while being as helpful as possible. On this note you have a right to complain, the police are here to deliver a service and as such we are expected to meet certain standards. You would be justifed to complain to the force about the officers conduct and attitude and I would encourage you to do so. Police who fail to meet basic stanards of curtosy and customer service have no business in todays police force. I didn't take his number and I really don't want to waste any more of my time with this orifice. I'm not entirely sure going to Tesco in the squad car to get donuts is exactly a good use of my tax money either to be honest. Maybe his ill informed rant towards me justified it. I have a feeling that this officer might have been involved when my astra became my crashtra..... I put in a complaint about the officer in charge there as I didn't feel it was appropriate shouting at a 17 / 18 year old girl who was already upset at being involved in an accident. It says something when someone who has just had their parked car written off has to console the driver that did it because the police don't have any compassion or ability at handling a situation. All his subordinates stood and watched too without saying anything - leading by example at it's best. Did I ever hear back about that despite putting it in two statements? Did I heck! Then maybe it's not protocol to follow up on complaints. All I can say is that I'm glad I've had the pleasure of meeting some good police officers because the few bad ones I've met have really brought down all the bridges the good ones have built. It's funny as I wasn't that bothered when it happened (hence me not taking his number) but I'm quite annoyed about it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nixy Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 Also don't assume because someone is a police officer they actually know the answer! They would probably have to trawl the legislation just like the rest of us anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLumen Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 I only hope that if your in my neck of the woods that your recive the highest level of respect and service if you ever need it. If not let me know and I'll do my best to assist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Posted August 25, 2010 Author Share Posted August 25, 2010 Just had a knock at the door..... The police here to charge me with my number plate size being incorrect. I showed them the legislation printed on the directgov site and the legal plates supplied by the manufacturer in the size I bought mine. He read it all and said ' reg plate sellers can tell you anything' so I sai, what about the government website? 'Well you're wrong and I have proof' I've asked to see his proof as I said I've followed the government issued guidlines. Also, my car is sitting up my driveway and it's not on the public road. Oh and he filled my name out on the fixed penalty notice wrongly. What should I do? Pay up and shut up and hope it goes away? I have no idea where I stand on this but I'm raging. How I can be done for 'Registration plate size incorrect' when it's following the government legislation I have no idea. Plus the car wasn't on the road??????? And he was a prick again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 If you have the law on your side (and you do), then argue the ticket. Let it go to court and watch them throw it out because the officer in question hasn't a clue what he's talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 Actually, that depends on what he's doing you for. If it's just the size then argue it, if it's a more generic 'plate that doesn't fit within the law' then you'll have to pay it as you've got illegal representation of letters/numbers on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoogyRev Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 Can you phone a solicitor who deals with motoring? They might be able to give you the best advice. Sounds like they just want another tick on the chart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik54 Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 He issued the fixed penalty today? Today your car was on your drive not on the public highway- therefore no law broken. it will not stand up in court - its just up to you if you can be arsed with the hassle of fighting it. Don't pay it though and I bet nothing else comes through about it - I doubt he'll even file it. OOOOO am angry for you Stew - I hope you got his number this time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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