Bridgestone Fishtailing Experience?

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When I got my S/C, the 18" could not hold the power for sure and Toyos on 19" are much improved but NA I never really recall having an issue

 

 

Dash so you disagree with Dorian then.

 

in his post quoted above he said he went larger tyres to have more grip (to handle the extra power from the SC) but at the same time he says he never had any isues with narrower tyres NA

 

surely Dorian above admits of wider tyres having more grip then?

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No WET conditions arent irrelevant as I have stated this all along!

 

so let's recap:

 

in you 2 guys' opinions (let's use 2 widths for examples) a 245 tyre has more or less grip than a 275 tyre? same brand, compound, tread pattern PSi and condition of the road

2 tyres same brand different widths same conditons (WET)) the 275 will be more prone to aquaplaning (ergo less grip) than the 245. Predominetly due to the difference in the shape of the contact patch the spreading of the pressuere placed upon that tyre by its vehicles weight over a different shaped contact patch and the fact that the capilary action with in the thread of that tyre is not the same due to the reduced contact pressure at any singal point.

 

ok hopefully Miraglio will be on board soon to discuss your position. Is your position the same for DRY conditions?

[Guest prescience]

No substance is non-deformable BTW

Carbon atoms? They cant be deformed.

 

Oh, I think they can

[Dash]

moved yes deformed eh no

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PS will tidy up the thread to make it a bit more clutter free

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the question has not been asked why nissan fitted these tyres, after talking to mike brewer of sky televisions wheeler dealers who was employed by nissan on the tyre testing team, the result was the bridgestones gave resonable grip wet or dry but wore well, the toyos came out top gave excellent grip but wore a lot faster, so basically they were fitted due to cost and if you dont mind replacing your tyres more often there are better tyres out there.

max.

Where is Mr. brewers credential relating to being a doctor in automotive compound adhesion (would that be physics?)

Secondly was he employed by Nissan? Whilst I have no evidence to the contrary I find it hard to believe that a reporter could be employed as a competent consultant during the initial trials of a vehicle or even the following NTE Homolgation trials that took place in various countires throughout europe but were managed by both NTE Cranfield and NTE Bonn, where incidently the nurburgring testing team reside?

But without evidence to the contrary I am open to admit that I may be wrong. Personally I would not take the wrok of an ex salesman come TV presenter as bonafida evidence upon which to make my choice of tyre manufacturer for the whole of europe on.

 

 

sorry a bit late to comment on this, but just to add some more spice:

 

first you say you are no scientist, now you want credentials...do you have any more credentials than mr Brewer?

 

Also, the Stone's are on Zeds worldwide, not just Europe

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Whilst it may not have appeared clear initially I was merely contradicting the point made by an earlier post saying that a "bigger contact patch = more grip" my point (as is yours) was that the pressure placed upon the area ireamins the same on a larger tyre just over a larger, as it is on a smaller tyre but on a smaller tyre the surface area is less. . Which is EXACTLY what you are saying. ?

So for example the PSI placed on the two different surface areas would be equal irrespective of ther different contact patch sizes

Was not contradicting you mate.

 

Dash do you still agree with the above statement you made? ar are we ONLY talking about wet conditions also on the above post? please clarify

[Guest prescience]

i think we were discussing this 3 wednesday's ago or something

1111 users

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practical example : a 245 tyre is grippier than a 275? just wondering why the F1 cars don't run on bicycle tyres then

 

Not in dry but it the wet it actually can be, hence why wet tyres on race cars can be narrower, ever seen snow tyres on a rally car, why do you think they are so thin? : To place the pressure on a narrower area to improve grip levels.

 

 

so you 2 guys are saying that a wider tyre has less grip than a narrower tyre.

In the wet yes, see above.

 

We are saying that the contact patch DOES NOT change, irrespective of tyre width, nor does the surface area load placed on that contact patch.

 

See Below. We never said "a wider tyre has less grip" we said that a wider tyre has an equal load on its contact patch and that the contact patch remains the same size. However the wider a tyre is in the wet the more prone it is to aquaplaning or slip angles.

 

Fat or thin? The question of contact patches and grip.

If there's one question guaranteed to promote argument and counter argument, it's this : do wide tyres give me better grip?

Fat tyres look good. In fact they look stonkingly good. In the dry they are mercilessly full of grip. In the wet, you might want to make sure your insurance is paid up, especially if you're in a rear-wheel-drive car. Contrary to what you might think (and to what I used to think), bigger contact patch does not necessarily mean increased grip. Better yet, fatter tyres do not mean bigger contact patch. Confused? Check it out:

 

Pressure=weight/area.

 

That's about as simple a physics equation as you can get. For the general case of most car tyres travelling on a road, it works pretty well. Let me explain. Let's say you've got some regular tyres, as supplied with your car. They're inflated to 30psi and your car weighs 1500Kg. Roughly speaking, each tyre is taking about a quarter of your car's weight - in this case 375Kg. In metric, 30psi is about 2.11Kg/cm².

By that formula, the area of your contact patch is going to be roughly 375 / 2.11 = 177.7cm² (weight divided by pressure)

Let's say your standard tyres are 185/65R14 - a good middle-ground, factory-fit tyre. That means the tread width is 18.5cm side to side. So your contact patch with all these variables is going to be about 177.7cm² / 18.5, which is 9.8cm. Your contact patch is a rectangle 18.5cm across the width of the tyre by 9.8cm front-to-back where it sits 'flat' on the road.

Still with me? Great. You've taken your car to the tyre dealer and with the help of my tyre calculator, figured out that you can get some swanky 225/50R15 tyres. You polish up the 15inch rims, get the tyres fitted and drive off. Let's look at the equation again. The weight of your car bearing down on the wheels hasn't changed. The PSI in the tyres is going to be about the same. If those two variables haven't changed, then your contact patch is still going to be the same : 177.7cm²

However you now have wider tyres - the tread width is now 22.5cm instead of 18.5cm. The same contact patch but with wider tyres means a narrower contact area front-to-back. In this example, it becomes 177.7cm² / 22.5, which is 7.8cm.

 

 

Imagine driving on to a glass road and looking up underneath your tyres. The narrower tyre has a longer, thinner contact patch. The fatter tyre has a shorter, wider contact patch, but the area is the same on both.

 

And there is your 'eureka' moment. Overall, the area of your contact patch has remained more or less the same. But by putting wider tyres on, the shape of the contact patch has changed. Actually, the contact patch is really a squashed oval rather than a rectangle, but for the sake of simplicity on this site, I've illustrated it as a rectangle - it makes the concept a little easier to understand. So has the penny dropped? I'll assume it has. So now you understand that it makes no difference to the contact patch, this leads us on nicely to the sticky topic of grip.

 

http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html

 

Must have missed this post... so it appears that now we all agree that wider tyres have better grip.

 

I appreciate the fact that this thread started as a discussion for wet conditions, and for that I hold my hand in sort of generalising it to "wider=better?"

 

It'll be curious to hear what Miraglio has to say for wet conditions.

 

I personally never stated that wider tyres have better grip than narrower tures in the wet

[Dash]

No WET conditions arent irrelevant as I have stated this all along!

 

so let's recap:

 

in you 2 guys' opinions (let's use 2 widths for examples) a 245 tyre has more or less grip than a 275 tyre? same brand, compound, tread pattern PSi and condition of the road

2 tyres same brand different widths same conditons (WET)) the 275 will be more prone to aquaplaning (ergo less grip) than the 245. Predominetly due to the difference in the shape of the contact patch the spreading of the pressuere placed upon that tyre by its vehicles weight over a different shaped contact patch and the fact that the capilary action with in the thread of that tyre is not the same due to the reduced contact pressure at any singal point.

 

ok hopefully Miraglio will be on board soon to discuss your position. Is your position the same for DRY conditions?

 

Val I think I need to be clear.

I am not Dorian, and I do not know what dorian has or hasnt got on his car. And as the post was made by Dorian to yourself I had no interest in it, I took your statement to relate to the topic at hand. Hence Why I keep stressing the fact that my point is made in relation to WET conditions. Therefore it goes without saying that in the dry a wider tyre can give more grip. However if you read back through my posts NONE of them mention that there is less grip from a wider tyre in the dry. I am stating a fact relating to te subject of the topic, slippage in the WET and I have not changed my statement through out. Re Read what I have posted. Its very clear.

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no point in trying to explain as I sd... will get him on board, and hopefully he'll explain to you 2 why you are wrong

You explained to "him' that we are discussing grip in WET conditions? And not the dry?

 

no, mine was a general question. is a wider tyre grippier than a narrower tyre.

 

Appreciate the fact that you do agree with me in saying that (at least in the dry) wider tyres are grippier. I do still hold my reservations to the explanation you (well the website you mentioned) gives as to why a narrower tyre is grippier in the wet

[Dash]

 

 

sorry a bit late to comment on this, but just to add some more spice:

 

first you say you are no scientist, now you want credentials...do you have any more credentials than mr Brewer?

 

Also, the Stone's are on Zeds worldwide, not just Europe

 

I only asked if he had credentials in order to assertain whether he was competent enough to make such a judgemment for Nissan (as the previous speaker claimed he had bee employed by Nissan for just such a purpose.

 

Was I professing my opinion as a matter of consultancy to nissan? NOPE.

 

Do I have any more credentials than than Mr Brewer? I cannot say until I know what credentials he has.

 

Did I say I had more credentials than him? Nope

 

Did I offer an opinion on an advisory basis about a tyre to a car manufacturer or to anyone else? Nope.

 

Do I have a platform to profess these opinoins like Mr Brewer? Nope.

 

Am I employed by Nissan or have I ever professed I have? Nope.

 

So why should I take the word of someone Like Mr Brewer (or Mr Clarkson for that matter) just on the basis of someone having a familar face and a public forum to broadcast from?

 

Also my reference to Europe was made under the basis that I seriously doubt that the boys in Nissan Omori even know who Mr Brewer is let alone value his input to hire him, (as the previous speaker claimed)

[Dash]

I do still hold my reservations to the explanation you (well the website you mentioned) gives as to why a narrower tyre is grippier in the wet

Well that is a another question you will have to ask you learned friend.

[Dash]

 

no, mine was a general question. is a wider tyre grippier than a narrower tyre.

 

You cannot expect a definitive answer back without laying down some parameters first. So your general question is irrelevant.

 

Its like me asking is a V8 more powerful than a V6?

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sorry a bit late to comment on this, but just to add some more spice:

 

first you say you are no scientist, now you want credentials...do you have any more credentials than mr Brewer?

 

Also, the Stone's are on Zeds worldwide, not just Europe

 

I only asked if he had credentials in order to assertain whether he was competent enough to make such a judgemment for Nissan (as the previous speaker claimed he had bee employed by Nissan for just such a purpose.

 

Was I professing my opinion as a matter of consultancy to nissan? NOPE.

 

Do I have any more credentials than than Mr Brewer? I cannot say until I know what credentials he has.

 

Did I say I had more credentials than him? Nope

 

Did I offer an opinion on an advisory basis about a tyre to a car manufacturer or to anyone else? Nope.

 

Do I have a platform to profess these opinoins like Mr Brewer? Nope.

 

Am I employed by Nissan or have I ever professed I have? Nope.

 

So why should I take the word of someone Like Mr Brewer (or Mr Clarkson for that matter) just on the basis of someone having a familar face and a public forum to broadcast from?

 

Also my reference to Europe was made under the basis that I seriously doubt that the boys in Nissan Omori even know who Mr Brewer is let alone value his input to hire him, (as the previous speaker claimed)

 

well i was present at that conversation and Max only reported what mr Brewer said. I can confirm that. So I guess it's your word against his.

 

IIRC he mentioned the fact that he went to try (alongside others apparently) different tyres back in Japan and did give feedback as to whether they could be deemed ok for the Uk climate. he also said his feedback had been negative.

 

I'm not saying he wasn't talking bollox, I'm just reporting what was said

[Dash]

Its not my word. Its my opinon. The point I was trying to make to max was just because Mr Brewer (a journalist just like Mr Clarkson, who people also seem to refer to as the fountain of all automotive knowledge) is able to offer an opion doesnt mean we should take it as fact as people do And in this case it SEEEMED like Max was taking this as "Authoritive"

 

I made no statement. I only asked questions. My "word" never came into it.

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Its not my word. Its my opinon. The point I was trying to make to max was just because Mr Brewer (a journalist just like Mr Clarkson, who people also seem to refer to as the fountain of all automotive knowledge) is able to offer an opion doesnt mean we should take it as fact as people do And in this case it SEEEMED like Max was taking this as "Authoritive"

 

I made no statement. I only asked questions. My "word" never came into it.

 

no as you disputed the fact that he actually did go to Japan and he actually did try the tyres.

 

I am reporting what was said by him (hence being his word)

[Guest prescience]

Must have missed this post... so it appears that now we all agree that wider tyres have better grip.

 

No I don't necessarily agree with that at all, they might, they might not

 

EDIT=> Just seen recent posts, strssing parameters

[Removed]

ok then recapping:

 

Dash and Dorian believe that wider tyres = better grip IN THE DRY but that won't be the case in wet conditions, being wet or dry the only parameter difference.

 

ok?

[Guest prescience]

bed

[Dash]

the question has not been asked why nissan fitted these tyres, after talking to mike brewer of sky televisions wheeler dealers who was employed by nissan on the tyre testing team, the result was the bridgestones gave resonable grip wet or dry but wore well, the toyos came out top gave excellent grip but wore a lot faster, so basically they were fitted due to cost and if you dont mind replacing your tyres more often there are better tyres out there.

max.

It was this information I based my questions on.

Your last statement:

IIRC he mentioned the fact that he went to try (alongside others apparently) different tyres back in Japan and did give feedback as to whether they could be deemed ok for the Uk climate. he also said his feedback had been negative.

was never mentioned in Max's text, and I am not privvy to that information, however how can you expect(considering Japan is notriously different to our UK roads) to compare a tyre for use in the UK? And if they did employ Mr Brewer for EXACTLY this purpose why do they spend vast amounts of mony on NTE Cranfield and NTE Bonn doing the same thing?

Again just another question I would love to know the answer to.

Maybe all the world needs is Mr Brewers opinion. (Alongside "others" of course

[Dash]

 

no as you disputed the fact that he actually did go to Japan and he actually did try the tyres.

 

I am reporting what was said by him (hence being his word)

 

Here is what I said (Again you are not reading it correctly)

 

Where is Mr. brewers credential relating to being a doctor in automotive compound adhesion (would that be physics?)

Secondly was he employed by Nissan? Whilst I have no evidence to the contrary I find it hard to believe that a reporter could be employed as a competent consultant during the initial trials of a vehicle or even the following NTE Homolgation trials that took place in various countires throughout europe but were managed by both NTE Cranfield and NTE Bonn, where incidently the nurburgring testing team reside?

But without evidence to the contrary I am open to admit that I may be wrong. Personally I would not take the wrok of an ex salesman come TV presenter as bonafida evidence upon which to make my choice of tyre manufacturer for the whole of europe on.

 

Where did I dispute the fact that he went to Japan?

 

Where did I dispute the fact that that he tested tyres?

 

 

You need to read what is there on the page Val and not what you believe is there.

 

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the question has not been asked why nissan fitted these tyres, after talking to mike brewer of sky televisions wheeler dealers who was employed by nissan on the tyre testing team, the result was the bridgestones gave resonable grip wet or dry but wore well, the toyos came out top gave excellent grip but wore a lot faster, so basically they were fitted due to cost and if you dont mind replacing your tyres more often there are better tyres out there.

max.

It was this information I based my questions on.

Your last statement:

IIRC he mentioned the fact that he went to try (alongside others apparently) different tyres back in Japan and did give feedback as to whether they could be deemed ok for the Uk climate. he also said his feedback had been negative.

was never mentioned in Max's text, and I am not privvy to that information, however how can you expect(considering Japan is notriously different to our UK roads) to compare a tyre for use in the UK? And if they did employ Mr Brewer for EXACTLY this purpose why do they spend vast amounts of mony on NTE Cranfield and NTE Bonn doing the same thing?

Again just another question I would love to know the answer to.

Maybe all the world needs is Mr Brewers opinion. (Alongside "others" of course

 

you are taking it personally mate, I am just reporting a conversation that I partecipated to, end of. Whether you believe it (or me for that matter) is a completely different story.

 

Since these 2 technical Centres you mention appear to have done such a great job in choosing such a crap tyre, tbh I rather have mr Brewer's opinion then, ie that he did say it was shite but wasn't listened to

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no as you disputed the fact that he actually did go to Japan and he actually did try the tyres.

 

I am reporting what was said by him (hence being his word)

 

Here is what I said (Again you are not reading it correctly)

 

Where is Mr. brewers credential relating to being a doctor in automotive compound adhesion (would that be physics?)

Secondly was he employed by Nissan? Whilst I have no evidence to the contrary I find it hard to believe that a reporter could be employed as a competent consultant during the initial trials of a vehicle or even the following NTE Homolgation trials that took place in various countires throughout europe but were managed by both NTE Cranfield and NTE Bonn, where incidently the nurburgring testing team reside?

But without evidence to the contrary I am open to admit that I may be wrong. Personally I would not take the wrok of an ex salesman come TV presenter as bonafida evidence upon which to make my choice of tyre manufacturer for the whole of europe on.

 

Where did I dispute the fact that he went to Japan?

 

Where did I dispute fact that that he tested tyres?

 

 

You need to read what is there on the page Val and not what you believe is there.

 

 

 

oh come on just admit it, asking for credentials in "being a doctor in automotive compound adhesion (would that be physics?) " surely is sarcastic to say the least? ie you don't believe it. otherwise why being sarcastic?

[Dash]

you are taking it personally mate, I am just reporting a conversation that I partecipated to, end of. Whether you believe it (or me for that matter) is a completely different story.

Perhaps I need to put more smileys in.

 

Honest Val Im not taking it personally, I am enjoying the discussion. I never doubted what YOU said. I believe you, and I have never said any differnent.

Since these 2 technical Centres you mention appear to have done such a great job in choosing such a crap tyre, tbh I rather have mr Brewer's opinion then, ie that he did say it was shite but wasn't listened to

On that one judging by majority of the opinons expressed by the people who own the car and this tyre you do seem to have a valid point.

 

Having said that the last time I spoke to my contact at Bonn I noticed he was runnng RE050's I asked was this an "in secret' or something. And his reply was 'No theyre just as shite as the 040's"