OEM Brakes Vs the rest (good or bad choice)

[gazofcorra]

Hi all i thought i would post this topic after several hours of reading through the brake topics listed on this forum, now i know a few members sell various brake components at fair prices and this is not aimed at them but questions the products that they sell for the 350Z.

Now driving styles vary for each owner but as you have bought this car and not the nissan micra this points to you enjoying a 2 seater RWD V6 and that equals some spirited driving at times, you might even take your car to a track day session to experience it at it's best in a controlled enviroment..... Oh Yeah

 

1. What is wrong with the OEM brake setup? not many reports of squealing or other complaints unlike some after market brake installations.

2. There seems to be divided reports on EBC red & yellow stuff as well as there discs too.

3. Brembo, EBC, Tarox, Ferrodo, Mintex blah blah blah I would rather hear from other Zee owners who have spent there hard earned money on brake parts and what they think works or does not work against the standard brake package the car came with.

 

I have the brembo OEM brakes on my veHicle and i cannot comment how good or bad they are as i have only had my car a few weeks, but coming from a Skoda 2.0T VRS the brakes on the Zee seem superb at what they do and when mine need replacing i want what is best for my car and that should equal or better the standard OEM brakes package at a reasonable price as there is no point spending huge amounts of money unless you are a racer you may do 50% normal average driving with 30-40% spirited driving and the remaining 10-20% driving like the stig!

 

I have checked my discs and the outer rotor has a slight ridge whilst the inner rotor has a bigger ridge, as i am not familiar with the thicknesses the discs should be before they are replaced i am not sure when mine will need changing but i may have to buy new discs and pads next year, the reason why wait until next year is that my Zee is my second car and only used on certain occasions, the reason for this is i live in a rural part of Shropshire and i am surrounded by hedge lined narrow lanes with no road markings as well as no street lamps and farms all over the place so for normal everyday things i use my old 4x4.

 

When i do change my brakes i am not sure to stay with OEM or change to another manufacturer and this will depend on how good they are Vs the standards and the prices of both as well as the posts i get from other Zee owners on why & what they use.

I would possibly buy Brembo discs and pads to go with my brembo calipers as we all know Brembo brakes are used on lots of performance vehicles as well as in motorsport so they are well proven to work, but this may not be the best route and that is why i have posted this topic.

Gaz

[SunGodRA]

I thought OEM pads were okay when I first bought the car, until Big Phil sold me some Endless pads (still budget pads) and the difference was very noticeable! I would never go back to OEM now. However, it all depends on your driving style and budget.

[BulletMagnet]

Personally, whenever something needs replacing, I tend to go for more uprated parts.

My brakes were nearing the end of their lifespan, so I replaced them with Dixcel discs on the front, DBA discs on the rear and Endless pads all round.

Compared to the OEM Brembo setup, the current brakes seem to stop the Zed faster.

[shieldsie]

These for me Cant beat ceramics. Fantastic, and no need clean wheels constantly, due to no break dust

 

[Chris`I]

1. Nothing wrong with OEM setup for spirited driving but it can fade quite noticably on the track - and also remember that in many cases you can get uprated kit cheaper than OEM, this is why most plump for it - 2 birds with one stone - more performance and cheaper than OEM.

2. EBC are fine if you realise what they are for. They are budget kit, and again are fine for spirited driving, but not track driving. The Zed is a heavy car (~1.5 tonnes), so you need good pads. Red stuff are equated to uprated pads on most cars, but for the Zed, they have admitted they are closer to stock. To update with EBC you need yellowstuff. As for the discs, again, they are fine for fast road use, but not track. The Zed being heavy it puts a lot of heat into the discs and EBC cant take it.

3. There are sooo many packages out there its very hard to offer advice, type of use and budget are the 2 most important factors. It sounds like you wont be tracking your car, but rather fast road useage, and you want something around (more likely less) than the OEM setup from a dealer. This would sway me towards the Ferrodo DS2500 pads and some form of EBC Ultimax or Turbo grooved disc. If you are going to track it though, dont be supprised if you warp the discs if you are heavy on the brakes, as they cant take too much heat. Fast road they will be fine. Have a chat to our traders - CS, Envy, ZMANALEX, they are all very knowledgable

[M13KYF]

oem pads can be very dusty too. One thing i notice after changing to endless is now the wheels stay much cleaner

[gazofcorra]

Great replies so far guys and i have looked into the Dixcel discs and pads and also the DBA discs and as far as i can tell these are very good, i have read mixed reviews on the endless pads so some more reviews would be great.

 

1. Nothing wrong with OEM setup for spirited driving but it can fade quite noticably on the track - and also remember that in many cases you can get uprated kit cheaper than OEM, this is why most plump for it - 2 birds with one stone - more performance and cheaper than OEM.

2. EBC are fine if you realise what they are for. They are budget kit, and again are fine for spirited driving, but not track driving. The Zed is a heavy car (~1.5 tonnes), so you need good pads. Red stuff are equated to uprated pads on most cars, but for the Zed, they have admitted they are closer to stock. To update with EBC you need yellowstuff. As for the discs, again, they are fine for fast road use, but not track. The Zed being heavy it puts a lot of heat into the discs and EBC cant take it.

3. There are sooo many packages out there its very hard to offer advice, type of use and budget are the 2 most important factors. It sounds like you wont be tracking your car, but rather fast road useage, and you want something around (more likely less) than the OEM setup from a dealer. This would sway me towards the Ferrodo DS2500 pads and some form of EBC Ultimax or Turbo grooved disc. If you are going to track it though, dont be supprised if you warp the discs if you are heavy on the brakes, as they cant take too much heat. Fast road they will be fine. Have a chat to our traders - CS, Envy, ZMANALEX, they are all very knowledgable

Chris i will be going to the track during 2010 as until you have done a track day you don't know what your missing, i have not ever tracked a car but when i was into my bikes i done plenty of them so i am looking forward to me and zee having some quality time so that rules out the EBC discs.

 

I have now decided that the OEM setup is not suitable for me and i will have to go the uprated route especially as i am looking to do a few track days as well as some spirited fast road use as this is not my main car the zee is more like my MISTRESS, as i sneak out at certain times and she demands a good seeing too, which i obviously oblidge

I would still like to hear from anyone if they have tried the Brembo discs & pads or it will be a combination of either:

1. Dixcel discs & dixcel Z pads all round

2. Dixcel discs and endless pads

3. DBA discs with endless pads

4. DBA discs and ferrodo DS2500

There are obviously loads more to choose from but from what i have read up to now these are used by lots of drivers of 350Z's and other fast performance cars with good results.

[sunset350z]

When my brakes needed changing i went for uprated pads all round (DS2500), and the DBA 4000 discs, purely because they were cheaper than OEM, but more importantly they were a vast improvement over stock. I never managed to take the car on track days, but did a lot of spirited driving on A and B roads and not once did i have any fade however hard i pushed. This lot cost me £350 for the front discs and £175 for F & R pads.

If you are going to do the odd track day then this set up will be adequate, but if you want to push the car to the limit and beyond and thrash it round the nurburgring lap after lap, then think about going for something even better.

I went round the Ring with GT4Zed, and he had K-Sport calipers disc's and pad set up!!! My god the brakes were phenomenal. He was braking so late i was bricking it and thinking if my life insurance was in order All in all an awesome bit of kit, but its a few grand out of your bank account!!!

So basically forget the OEM set up and go for the best you can afford.

[gazofcorra]

That to sounds a good setup that you have and it is always better to hear off people who have tried different brake setups, i did not realise that the OEM discs and pads were so expensive and the last thing i wanted to do was compromise my braking and as long as the replacements were as good as stock brembo OEM setup and capable of 1 or 2 trackdays per year then this is what i am looking out for as i will have to change mine early next year.

 

I have only just bought my car and have covered only 500 miles as i use it as a second vehicle, it is a 2005 model with 70K and full nissan service history and was serviced 6 months ago, but so far i have had to change all the tyres and i reckon the brake discs are near to minimum so i need to get that all checked out.

 

BTW i found an interesting article on the stock Vs modified brake setup on the nissan 350Z track model (Brembo) and the performance model (nissans single piston floating calipers) and Stoptech 332mm & 335mm big brake kits take a look: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm#Intro

[ianp]

 

BTW i found an interesting article on the stock Vs modified brake setup on the nissan 350Z track model (Brembo) and the performance model (nissans single piston floating calipers) and Stoptech 332 & 335 big brake kits take a look: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm#Intro

 

Interesting article, especially the lack of difference between the standard and Brembo versions. I wonder if that's down to the stock pads being of similar material.

I find my stock brakes a little dull and lacking in bite so I'm keeping an eye on this thread, as I expect I'll convince myself to do something with them soon!

[gazofcorra]

Interesting article, especially the lack of difference between the standard and Brembo versions. I wonder if that's down to the stock pads being of similar material.

I thought there would be a huge difference between the 2 models of standard brakes as the 350Z performance model also has smaller disks too (quoting the article) and the difference between the 332mm big brake kit was not much better than the standard Brembo's.

 

I have now decided that when it comes time to change my discs i will pick between Dixcel FCR Carbon Slotted disks or BDA 4000 series and for pads either Dixcel Type Z Carbon pads or Ferrodo DS2500 i would include the endless pads but i think there are 3 different types and i have not read any posts that rave about them for the money, but as more posts come in i will take all info on board.

 

What else works & why, oh yes and £ how much..........

[BulletMagnet]

I just have the Dixcel Slotted up front and DBA 4000 on the rear, the Endless pads I have are the SSS version.

Since I don't really track the car and it is my daily driver, I feel that my choices are more than adequate to deal with my braking needs, especially when I feel the need for spirited driving.

[Toon Chris]

When my stock discs were worn it seemed daft not to upgrade when to do so was cheaper than staying stock.

Big Phil (a Guru trader, sadly missed, who really knew the Z) sold me EBC turbo-groove as a good fast road disc. One other reason they are good is that the dimples match the Rays but they give me no complaints.

I have always loved Ferodo pads and DS2500 do not disappoint. Just when you thought the fade would start, they bite really hard. They are a good fast-road choice and late breaking is always good for a squeak and a thump from the missus, although the be fair you don't notice you are doing it, you just get used to how good the brakes are.

Nevertheless, if tracking, Phil recommended the DBA disks as truly excellent performance and quality - but now we are talking a little more money than stock replacement!

[rtbiscuit]

since i've kitted my car, i'm unsure if i'll do any more track days in mine, so my long term plan is for EBC ultimax discs with either EBC yellow stuff or ferodo DS2500's

 

not sure if the ultimax are better or worse than the turbo groove drilled and grooved ones they do?

[Chris`I]

not sure if the ultimax are better or worse than the turbo groove drilled and grooved ones they do?

Ultimax can not take as much abuse as Turbo Grooved. Sadly I know this first hand, neither are a real track disc, but Turbos hold up better IMO. I think Mitz suggests the same too, Ultimax for fast road, and Turbo Grooved for street and a bit of track

[rtbiscuit]

always been slightly unsure of drilled discs as i've heard they crack more easily, hence i was tempted by the grooved only option.

 

but if they are better than hey ho, they seem to be the choice to go for.

 

also when you look at them they seem to have different surface finishes between ultimax and turbo grooved.

[gazofcorra]

Can brake setups be mixed...Can you have different discs on the front/rear? Can you also have different pads front/rear?

I have just looked at the K-Sport BBK 8 pot setup and you get calipers, rotors, bells, braided hoses & pads for under £800.00 that sounds good value but maybe to extreme for normal day to day driving, would be good to hear of anyone who has this setup.

[Ekona]

Can brake setups be mixed...Can you have different discs on the front/rear? Can you also have different pads front/rear?

You can, but you have to know what you're doing else you'll be locking one end before the other. As a rule, you want to have most of the stopping power on the front wheels, but you don't want to go too extreme.

 

I'm running PF discs & pads on the front and OEM discs with PF pads on the rear with braided hoses and Endless fluid, and it's a very good setup for fast road and moderate track use. Great bite from cold and zero fade on track even after 20 mins, the only obstacle is the massive weight of the Zed which means that whilst stopping power is better than OEM (along with feel and fade), you're still stopping 1700kg+ of car (incl driver + fluids) which means that it's not quite as YOINKS as I would like. Obviously the next step for me would be for a larger setup with more pistons up front and maybe slightly larger discs in the rear, but then I'd need new wheels possibly and you start getting into daft costs considering what I've spent already. For maybe 90% of people I'd say the setup I've got is on the money, but if you really want to push harder then a BBK and/or serious weight loss (200-300 kg MIN!) of the car is the way forward.

 

 

All IMHO, YMMV etc.

[DavidS14]

I think that we need to get some terminology correct, OEM is what Nissan fit when the cars leave the factory, any pads that are fitted after that time unless supplied and/or fitted by Nissan will be Aftermarket materials.

 

Here's a couple of posts I made on the SXOC when we had a similar discussion:

 

The problem with looking at standard pads is that when your car comes from Nissan it has the brake material that was developed for the car fitted. This material will have done thousands of stops on dyno's as well as mules so it will be well suited to what the makers consider to be normal use. Now aftermarket pads are usually made from one of two or three general materials that are used for all applications. This is why you might like the bite or performance of you OEM pads but are disappointed when you go to a motor factor and buy replacements. Even if you buy them from Nissan you may or may not get the OEM material, you may get the aftermarket stuff, depending on how many OE pad sets Nissan had manufactured. If you want high friction at low speed then you want the maximum disc contact (no grooves) and a pad with a high metal content. DS2500's are really a compromise because they are a performance pad but they have friction modifiers that help boost lower temp performance which is why people like them. They get the fade free performance but still the confidence of enough cold bite.

 

I think that maybe project mu pads might be worth a try, they have a high metal content which is why they don't give much dust and Simon says he prefers them to the DS's but the trade off I think will be disc wear.

 

With std or maybe aftermarket then you'll usually cook the pads before you start permanently damaging the discs, as the binders are not brilliant and the metal content are pretty low. You'll get the system to a certain temperature when the coefficient of friction (mu) generated by the pad/disc will usually drop dramatically, this is usually described as "fade".

 

Now if you are only occasionally entering this temperature zone then you can usually get away with better pads (higher metal content and more stable binders) which will give you a higher temperature ceiling. The problem with this is that because the system cannot dissipate the energy very efficiently the extra overhead you get can be limited. Having a few grooves in the brake discs will also help at this stage as when the disc/pad interface starts to brake down then the debris/gases can exit the pads fave using the grooves. Now fitting better and better pads can lead to a false sense of security because the fade has gone away you think everything is OK but it's not. It just means that you are now overcooking the discs/calipers but the pads are probably still inside their performance envelope.

 

If you go to the next stage i.e you regularly enter this temperature zone then just better pad material will not work as you'll soon overheat the disc/calipers/fluid. Now you could either try to keep the standard set up cooler by increasing wheel clearance and running dedicated air ducting to both sides of the disc. When we were developing DS we would use the ducting first as it was the cheapest and easiest. With good ducting you can cool the whole system down and maintain brake efficiency but this also has it's limits (maximum airflow/space/pressure considerations). Another method of improving braking would be to increase the surface area of the system. This increases the maximum heat dissipation but is usually detremental to the unsprung weight. This can be easily acheived by using a bigger disc which not only gives you a larger swept area but more surface area/mass but you still retain the std. pad/disc contact area. This will not give you a higher temperature ceiling but will take longer to get there or may not get there if it's a certain part of the track that's heavy on the brakes with a long non/light braking section between. A lot of people have used tis method with good results (Bren's 310mm kit is an excellent example). Again you could improve the heat dissipation further by using ducting. With a big disc/ducted setup I think that you should be safe for most track days.

 

Now if you give your brakes death then you need to go to the next stage which would be bigger discs and calipers. This increases the mass, gives you a larger swept area and also increases the contact area of the pads. With this set up you are also at the stage where the disc design can also be optimised (cooling galleries etc) which will maximise heat dissipation and minimise the increase in mass. Again ducting can improve thing further (if required).

 

You need to match the entire system to the kind of braking you are going to do. As we all know you can't upgrade one part of a system in isolation and then expect everything else to be able to "work harder" to match. For most people who like fast road driving then the fist mod route is OK as better pads with give more confidence as they "bite" rather than feel wooden but most road driving allows the system to recover before being called on again but you can still overwhelm the brakes by having limited recovery time. For road use I would say that the bigger disc method should be capable of handling all situations ( I know I should put most and not all but I think you would have to drive like a t*at on public roads to cook them). Track drivers are another case entirely, they need maximum performance (matched to the car) and minimum recovery time.

 

As a general guide:

Normal driving : Fit better pads (more confidence and feel)

Fast Road Driving : Minimum of Better pads/grooved discs but Bigger rotor/better pads recommended (more confidence and feel + fade resistance).

Track Days : Minimum Bigger rotor/better pads but caliper/disc/pad upgrade recommended.

 

If you are on a budget then the ducting idea would be the first thing to try as you can DIY and it's interesting doing the testing as to what works and what doesn't

 

I feel like death having been out at a stag do last night and only been up for an hour so spelling/english allowances will have to be made but hopefully you'll get the drift.

 

I worked on the development team for the DS range of materials for Ferodo so I know all the work that went into them and the competitor materials we tested at the time. We had dynos with a full suspension/wheel setup with a rolling road beneath and we could alter the loading/speed and the environment in the test cell (temperature and humidity) so we could play with a lot of material changes, pad designs etc.

 

Sorry for the long post

[DavidS14]

always been slightly unsure of drilled discs as i've heard they crack more easily, hence i was tempted by the grooved only option.

 

but if they are better than hey ho, they seem to be the choice to go for.

 

also when you look at them they seem to have different surface finishes between ultimax and turbo grooved.

 

I don't really like drilled discs unless it's for a track car where performance of the braking system is paramount i.e. cost and replacement times are not important.

 

Grooved discs on the other hand are a good compromise that give you some of the benefits of drilled without the major drawbacks.

 

Again I'll dredge up a previous post from the SXOC (sorry again )

 

 

 

Plain Disc - Good for moderate duty as the transfer film (what the pad deposit on the disc) is unbroken this gives a stable coefficient of friction at low to moderate temperatures. Bad for higher speed/temperature applications as this transfer film will degenerate and give unstable friction and can cause "hot spotting" of the disc leading to cracking and failure. This design also maintains heat longer and so will be more prone to fade under repeated braking.

 

Grooved - Good for almost all applications. The grooving does two things, first it clears the pad surface of carbonised debris (which is generated at high temperatures due to a lot of pad materials using phenoylic resin as a binder) and also allows the vapours that are generated at the pad face during hard braking to escape allowing a better contact between pad face and rotor and minimising fade.

 

Drilled - Good for almost all applications.

Drilled discs give most of the benefits of grooved but have other good/bad points. They allow the discs to cool faster due to lower thermal mass and larger surface area (but this is speed dependant as at higher rpm's the vortex the discs create does impact the amount of cooling air that the discs see via the holes) but the down side of this is that we noted more surface cracking on drilled discs than grooved, we thought this may be due to faster thermal cycling. We also noted that on some drilled discs unless the holes were countersunk you could see cracks developing from the hole edges.

 

Grooved & Drilled - See above for plus/minus points.

[gazofcorra]

I worked on the development team for the DS range of materials for Ferodo so I know all the work that went into them and the competitor materials we tested at the time. We had dynos with a full suspension/wheel setup with a rolling road beneath and we could alter the loading/speed and the environment in the test cell (temperature and humidity) so we could play with a lot of material changes, pad designs etc.

David thanks for your post it took some reading but i get your drift. As you worked on the Ferrodo DS pads you know a lot more than most about that particular pad and from what i have read quite a few people like them also, can you give us the key points on the DS2500 pad and your honest opinion of it.

[rtbiscuit]

i'm interested to know which competitions brake pads and discs you tried out in comparision

[DavidS14]

Mintex, Pagid, EBC, AP and Porterfield as well as a few others as I recall.

 

This was a few years ago so I've no info on any newer materials but all of the principles are still the same.

[rtbiscuit]

Mintex, Pagid, EBC, AP and Porterfield as well as a few others as I recall.

 

This was a few years ago so I've no info on any newer materials but all of the principles are still the same.

 

was it the yellow stuff, red stuff etc from EBC, only ask as they were my original choice, for yellow stuff, my other was the ferodo ds2500. deciding factor at the moment was price. but not due to change for a while so got plenty of time to research and plan for it.

[DavidS14]

David thanks for your post it took some reading but i get your drift. As you worked on the Ferrodo DS pads you know a lot more than most about that particular pad and from what i have read quite a few people like them also, can you give us the key points on the DS2500 pad and your honest opinion of it.

 

All of the DS range at the time (DS2000, 2500 and 3000) were all based around the same matrix with each material then formulated for it's primary application, I don't think that 2000 is still in production

 

DS2500 was really a road going version of 3000 that kept some of the high temperature characteristics but added friction modifiers and lowered the metal content so that you retained low temperature performance which was lacking in the 3000 material. It has a fairly flat friction coefficient and maintained > 4Mu above 400°C plus it's also pretty disc friendly given it's performance and also lasts well so it's a good material for cars that are mainly used on the road but also do track days. 3000 was always a good race pad due to the high metal content but had very low performance when cold and would eat discs.

 

2500 was not a "stiff" pad, that means that the pad material can "flex" and follow the disc surface even if it's not totally flat which happens when the disc heats/cools. Some pad materials are very "stiff", this can mean that instead of conforming to the disc surface they only touch the high areas which can lead to hot-spotting and distortion problems with repeated thermal cycling.

 

I've always gone back to DS2500 on my 200SX initially with standard calipers and discs, then I swapped to Pagid 6 groove dics and then to R34 Brembos and discs. I have tried Mintex, Project Mu and Endless but have preferred the DS's in the end as a good all rounder.