Chris`I Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I was just thinking I wonder what AdrianK's would come in at over at RS? We talked about that on the day. 2 obvious possibilities, either his would jump to over 300BHP on the SRR rollers or it would make sod all, we voted nearer the second. Apparently his fueling is already pretty good, whereas most of the others arent, so one of the corrections to get a bit more power wouldnt do much. Would certainly be interesting to see though. He was only 0.5BHP less than Mark and hasnt spent anywhere near as much on tuning (yet!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunset350z Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I've seen so many different dyno's in my time, but the one that i think could be the most reliable and accurate is the hub dyno!! I had my tickford capri on one of these about 9 yrs ago and i was very impressed. There's no variables with this system as you have no issues with grip and strapping down. The dyno connects straight to the hubs after removing rear wheels so power is transmitted straight through. Here's a link> http://www.parr-uk.co.uk/porsche-perfor ... /dyno.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundus Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I was just thinking I wonder what AdrianK's would come in at over at RS? We talked about that on the day. 2 obvious possibilities, either his would jump to over 300BHP on the SRR rollers or it would make sod all, we voted nearer the second. Apparently his fueling is already pretty good, whereas most of the others arent, so one of the corrections to get a bit more power wouldnt do much. Would certainly be interesting to see though. He was only 0.5BHP less than Mark and hasnt spent anywhere near as much on tuning (yet!) I think Id be inclined to say that AdrianK's would make a big increase on the dyno at RS compared to SRR. Nurrish got 301 after tuning at RS and hasnt changed anything on his car between that and going to SRR. Over at SRR he gets 282. Now if both rolling roads are consistent in how they manage their dyno (not consistent with each other but consistent from each run to the next in terms of strapping etc) then this difference is simply a difference in the rolling road itself (whether that be how the car is strapped, how it is run, gear used etc....) So what we are seeing is a difference of about 20bhp from SRR to RS. Now - as has been discussed this means nothing. Lets say RS test the your car at 270 then fit an air filter and test it again at 272 Lets also say that SRR test the same car stock at 250 then fit the same air filter and test it again at 252 It would be easy to get upset and think that your power has dropped dramatically but at the end of the day the dyno's give different results but the increase should be the same. So based on that theory I would say that AdrianK should get 310bhp at RS since RS and SRR rolling roads differ by around 20bhp based on Nurrish's figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Sorry, I meant if Ad got a remap and re-ran it on SSR he wouldnt see much as the car is already running well. I agree, if he took it to RSTuning then he would see over 300BHP going by Nurrish's car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3FIDDYZ Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Disagree there Chris, if Ad took his to SSR or Abbey for a remap or to whoever for a piggyback he would see the same % increase at SSR. The thing to find out is at another tuners what his baseline is... if its 289 at Abbey and he comes back with 310 then it should read about the same at SSR? If not its down to % increases between the 2? Looking forward to seeing what numbers yours comes out with Bundus when it gets done as yours was running lean wasnt it? Bit more fuel and a map and you will be pushing hard! As I say I would be more than happy to run mine at Abbey to see what numbers I get to see if there is consistancy between the others mine has been on... What will also be interesting is what numbers Andymc gets on his as I think hes down there this week! I think the biggest point of all of this is that there arnt many gains on a 350z without FI and the gains you get you want to keep, so when you do loose them you do feel pretty crap as you have spent money on the mods and the tuning and it suddenly all dissappears! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 You're missing my point Mark. I'm not saying on someone elses rollers he will see something different, that is a give. What me and Ad were talking about was how much gain he would see on the same rollers with and without a remap/piggyback as he already has a strong car. Most have weird AFRs to say the least and a decent amount of the new found power comes from correcting it, however Ad was lead to believe his was much better already, so not so much gains to be had by tweaking them. Get it now? I was on about SRR vs RST vs Abbey numbers at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanS16 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Sorry, I meant if Ad got a remap and re-ran it on SSR he wouldnt see much as the car is already running well. I agree, if he took it to RSTuning then he would see over 300BHP going by Nurrish's car Going from nurrish's non-mapped dynos: (rounded up and down) Westons 260bhp RS 285bhp so in theory mine would be: (dynoed same day as nurrish's) Westons 305bhp RS 330bhp (in theory) So if you calculate the drivetrain loss at 17%(ish) mine would be putting out 275 RWHP, only 25 less than Adam@Z1's car so something is wrong here somewhere if you catch my drift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Yup, thats why I dont get dynos. You just cant make sense of them unless mods are benched on the same day, same rollers, before and after mod. Something doesnt seem to add up, but the SSR guy seemed happy that Nurrish's dyno chart from RSTuning was reasonable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3FIDDYZ Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Yeh I got it first time Chris, but tuners (depending on what they are doing) wont just play around with the AFR, there are other areas to gain in from adjusting timings, so as his car is strong it will still benifit more... Its all about the tuner knowing about what they doing and the areas that need sorting. His car could be strong down to his compression ratio being spot on, thus better AFR will give him more torque and bhp. Only way to tell will be to try it I suppose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Yeh I got it first time Chris, but tuners (depending on what they are doing) wont just play around with the AFR, there are other areas to gain in from adjusting timings, so as his car is strong it will still benifit more... Its all about the tuner knowing about what they doing and the areas that need sorting. His car could be strong down to his compression ratio being spot on, thus better AFR will give him more torque and bhp. Only way to tell will be to try it I suppose! Thats what I told him What I was saying is his AFR is already good, so the extra power most get from correcting it he wont get so much. But yes I agree with adjusting timings etc he will get something, just potentially not as much as others - so he may only get 5HP rather than 10HP for instance. FI is the way to go for sure unless you want one hell of a project car like Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adriank Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Indeed mark, i will be going for a remap at some point, but im intending headers / plenum / cams before i do that... And with this fitted i would be hoping for a figure a good way avove 300, maybe 320-340 depending on the cams. I'm almost tempted not to now as my car does seem to be running pretty well as is. Also could my exhaust combo be making the power, ive allways maintained that i think flow wise the buddy club is the best exhaust for a 350Z, it has a very large bore, very few bends, and a solid y pipe, which im wondering if it could of made part of the difference. The japspeed and 5Zigen's are quite restrictive comparatively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3FIDDYZ Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Indeed mark, i will be going for a remap at some point, but im intending headers / plenum / cams before i do that...And with this fitted i would be hoping for a figure a good way avove 300, maybe 320-340 depending on the cams. I'm almost tempted not to now as my car does seem to be running pretty well as is. You got your graphs to hand ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adriank Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Not atm, i'm at work, but i can photo and upload later on, or Chris has the photo if he wouldnt mind uploading it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3FIDDYZ Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 The one with the AFR would be good~! just interested! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adriank Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Ok mate i'll get a copy up later on, but i can remember it hovered between 12.5 - 13.5 most of the rev range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundus Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Sorry, I meant if Ad got a remap and re-ran it on SSR he wouldnt see much as the car is already running well. I agree, if he took it to RSTuning then he would see over 300BHP going by Nurrish's car Going from nurrish's non-mapped dynos: (rounded up and down) Westons 260bhp RS 285bhp so in theory mine would be: (dynoed same day as nurrish's) Westons 305bhp RS 330bhp (in theory) So if you calculate the drivetrain loss at 17%(ish) mine would be putting out 275 RWHP, only 25 less than Adam@Z1's car so something is wrong here somewhere if you catch my drift. I agree that there is definitely something wrong with the dyno world if two different dynos can be so far apart on the same car but it wouldnt put me off getting dyno's. Id just get them done at the same place all the time and use them to see gains as opposed to max power. In fact I may even stopp quoting my max power after dyno's (as its clear that it could be way out) and just say "fitted new mod today - got me 1bhp increase". As long as you always use the same dyno then increase wise we should be able to say pretty accurately what our mods have done for us. On another note surely there should be some sort of national dyno rules for things like what gear to use, how tight to strap etc......so that we can take it to different places and feel confident that we are getting a comparable test? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanS16 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Sorry, I meant if Ad got a remap and re-ran it on SSR he wouldnt see much as the car is already running well. I agree, if he took it to RSTuning then he would see over 300BHP going by Nurrish's car Going from nurrish's non-mapped dynos: (rounded up and down) Westons 260bhp RS 285bhp so in theory mine would be: (dynoed same day as nurrish's) Westons 305bhp RS 330bhp (in theory) So if you calculate the drivetrain loss at 17%(ish) mine would be putting out 275 RWHP, only 25 less than Adam@Z1's car so something is wrong here somewhere if you catch my drift. I agree that there is definitely something wrong with the dyno world if two different dynos can be so far apart on the same car but it wouldnt put me off getting dyno's. Id just get them done at the same place all the time and use them to see gains as opposed to max power. In fact I may even stopp quoting my max power after dyno's (as its clear that it could be way out) and just say "fitted new mod today - got me 1bhp increase". As long as you always use the same dyno then increase wise we should be able to say pretty accurately what our mods have done for us. On another note surely there should be some sort of national dyno rules for things like what gear to use, how tight to strap etc......so that we can take it to different places and feel confident that we are getting a comparable test? Well the bloke at Westons (only dyno I have ever done) said that all of the Dyno Dynamics should be pretty close at it all comes set from them and not the individual tuner. As you said though, I think that the only way of getting reliable information is to use the same dyno every time forgetting about the actual figure and just keeping in mind increases and decreases in power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurrish Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 I'd understand the massive difference in power if a totally different type of dyno was being used for each run....but all of them being dyno dynamics you would of thought they would at least be within a few bhp of each other no? I find it hard to beleive that everyone's bhp is down to the person tightening the straps!! if that were the case you can throw every ones bhp out the window and just make up one!! which would probably give you a closer reading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3FIDDYZ Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Sorry, I meant if Ad got a remap and re-ran it on SSR he wouldnt see much as the car is already running well. I agree, if he took it to RSTuning then he would see over 300BHP going by Nurrish's car Going from nurrish's non-mapped dynos: (rounded up and down) Westons 260bhp RS 285bhp so in theory mine would be: (dynoed same day as nurrish's) Westons 305bhp RS 330bhp (in theory) So if you calculate the drivetrain loss at 17%(ish) mine would be putting out 275 RWHP, only 25 less than Adam@Z1's car so something is wrong here somewhere if you catch my drift. I agree that there is definitely something wrong with the dyno world if two different dynos can be so far apart on the same car but it wouldnt put me off getting dyno's. Id just get them done at the same place all the time and use them to see gains as opposed to max power. In fact I may even stopp quoting my max power after dyno's (as its clear that it could be way out) and just say "fitted new mod today - got me 1bhp increase". As long as you always use the same dyno then increase wise we should be able to say pretty accurately what our mods have done for us. On another note surely there should be some sort of national dyno rules for things like what gear to use, how tight to strap etc......so that we can take it to different places and feel confident that we are getting a comparable test? Well the bloke at Westons (only dyno I have ever done) said that all of the Dyno Dynamics should be pretty close at it all comes set from them and not the individual tuner. As you said though, I think that the only way of getting reliable information is to use the same dyno every time forgetting about the actual figure and just keeping in mind increases and decreases in power. All mine have been done on DD and been pretty consistant... Agree that its a way of seeing an increase on one dyno, but is it an increase? You need to have something to check against... If you get a 10% increase all round then you should see one elsewhere. The point is with Daves dyno was that he had one at weston and he got an increase when he pulled at SRR. He showed an increase at RS but his number was a psycological High of over 300..... Had it been that an initial reading of 265 at RS and then an increase to 285 would you have been happy? Would others looking around for tuning be happy? Probably not as the stock DE is 276 (one is somewhere!!) and is the expense then worth it for the 9hp? I suppose one thing is it isnt all about the bhp, the torque comes in to it and if you have a more (or less ) economical engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3FIDDYZ Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Sorry, I meant if Ad got a remap and re-ran it on SSR he wouldnt see much as the car is already running well. I agree, if he took it to RSTuning then he would see over 300BHP going by Nurrish's car Going from nurrish's non-mapped dynos: (rounded up and down) Westons 260bhp RS 285bhp so in theory mine would be: (dynoed same day as nurrish's) Westons 305bhp RS 330bhp (in theory) So if you calculate the drivetrain loss at 17%(ish) mine would be putting out 275 RWHP, only 25 less than Adam@Z1's car so something is wrong here somewhere if you catch my drift. I agree that there is definitely something wrong with the dyno world if two different dynos can be so far apart on the same car but it wouldnt put me off getting dyno's. Id just get them done at the same place all the time and use them to see gains as opposed to max power. In fact I may even stopp quoting my max power after dyno's (as its clear that it could be way out) and just say "fitted new mod today - got me 1bhp increase". As long as you always use the same dyno then increase wise we should be able to say pretty accurately what our mods have done for us. On another note surely there should be some sort of national dyno rules for things like what gear to use, how tight to strap etc......so that we can take it to different places and feel confident that we are getting a comparable test? Actually what did yours do between Garys and SRR? As we did change your zorst over between the 2 runs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurrish Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 If i had a reading of 263 at rs and come away with 282 i suppose i would of been happy as the gain is there.....but as a stock engine being 276 the gain is not really worth it bhp wise........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurrish Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 I tell you something mark.....It would be interesting to get on your rolling road which you use for your tuning.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3FIDDYZ Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Yeh it would, but its being moved very soon!!! The rolling road is rolling!! It may still be in situe for a few weeks, I can ask gary if hes moved it yet if you really fancy it. When it is moved it does mean it will need to be calibrated when it gets reinstalled... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adriank Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 How was your torque curve/ amount mark / nurrish? In the mid band mine was pulling between 250-260 ib/ft, which i thought was fairly good? Do you think the Buddyclubs large bore and un restrictive size would help? my old 5Zigen with Nismo Y: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I think it does Ad, just look at how fat each of the Nismos are before the Y and how restrictive the 5Zigen is. Its not even as fat as one side of the Nismo Y, let alone after its combined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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