Thanks WRC

[Baptist]

If you are not getting the exhaust as part of the package, then WRCT are not playing the game as they should do. This has happened to alot of people in the UK, as APS only sell the kit complete with the exhaust, but the UK dealers are selling these on for extra profit.

Regards,

Jon.

 

Jon / Lee

Dont you just love hearsay ? The APS Twin Turbo System in the UK for 350Z is priced and specified exactly as per USA. The two kits are identical in their content with the exception of specific components required for RHD vs LHD. The reasons we priced UK at exactly the same as USA pricing were twofold:-

1} APS wanted consistency on 350z product worldwide

2} We wished to restrict internet shopping to those that really felt the added aggro was woth speculating on currency / vat avoidence etc.

 

With this in mind the "kit" as delivered from APS does not contain an exhaust for either market. The fact that APS have recently suggested that the exaust is mandatory for Europe has not altered the fact that we still have to order the exhaust in addition to the TT kit !

The addition of the exhaust as mandatory may or may not have come about as a direct result of failures, who will ever know.

 

The safest route when you are unsure of your facts, would be to refrain from commenting.

Regards

 

Allan

 

 

Allan,

 

I am not unsure of my facts, I suggest you check with your supplier, as that came from Peter Luxon at APS. Not hearsay, as you put it.

 

Cheers.

 

Jon.

[Guest prescience]

Allan,

 

Is your website down at present www.wrc-tech.co.uk or is that wrong URL?

[WRC Tech]

Jon

This is an extract from our current APS Stock availability / order form, clearly indicating that you can order 350Z components individually.

We used this format as recently as 4 weeks ago to order 2 x TT kits and 3 x exhausts etc.

 

APSG35-HOE/01 G35 2.5" cat back system $1,290.00

APSG35-HOE/03 G35 3" dual exhaust system $1,495.00

APS350Z-HOE/01 350Z 2.5" cat back system $1,290.00

APS350Z-HOE/02 350Z 2.5" cat delete test pipes $195.00

APS350Z-HOE/03 350Z 3" dual exhaust system $1,495.00

APS350Z-HOE/04 350Z 3.5" cat delete test pipes $330.00

APS350Z-HOE/08 Single turbo exhaust system -350z $995.00

 

Turbo systems

APS350Z-TTS/01 Twin turbo system - 350Z/G35 $7,490.00

APS350Z-TTS/05 Twin turbo system - Tuner system $6,295.00

APS350Z-STS/08 Single turbo system - 350Z/G35 $5,890.00

 

APSG35-SIK/01 Supplemental kit - 350Z to G35 $125.00

 

Other

APS350Z-STB/01 Strut tower brace $245.00

APS350Z-HVO/01 High volume oil pan assembly $395.00

APS350Z-IPA/01 Intake plenum assembly $445.00

 

All prices are APS' suggested retail in USA if using sea freight into Pacific coast.

 

Best Regards

 

Allan

[Baptist]

Thanks for that Allan, very interesting, thats not how thing were described by the parent company. I know a man that will find that information very 'enlightening'.

[WRC Tech]

I believe that APS operate in a global market with a desire to keep it simple. As a resut one price structure, one currency. You choose the bits that apply to your market.

Each market will receive a bulletin with either suggestions or instructions relevant to a particular car or component combination.

 

So lets not go hunting devils here. The car in question had its instal carried out in GB by a GB based tuner. It blew up for whatever reason or combination of reasons. The issue is in essence between the owner and the tuner not APS themselves. IMHO

For those that do not know which tuner carried the above instal, I can only say it was not WRC Technologies Ltd

 

Regards

 

Allan

[Baptist]

The car should not have been tuned without the APS exhaust, thats the point Im making. If APS havent communicated this to you, you are leading yourself wide open for problems further down the line. APS have clearly stated that the product is not being sold as intended if the exhaust isnt fitted to the car, if you arent aware of this, then you need to sort that out with your supplier.

 

The reason it blew up was confirmed by an independant engineer, thermal load on the engine, due to an exhaust that was not fit for purpose.

 

APS then stated that all kits in the UK/Europe are sold with the exhaust as part of the package.

 

Funny how, once their is a problem, nobody wants to help out.

[WRC Tech]

As a company we are fully aware of what APS have said "post event" with regard to TT kits and exhausts. We have not carried out any installations since the bulletin was issued. We have ordered exhausts to go on the kits carried out prior to the failure.

 

However what is baffling is why just Europe ?? Perhaps you know !

 

As for "thermal loads" many things can contribute to this, one of which is exhaust backpressure. Not really sure that this was the main contributor having seen the map.

 

Regards

 

Allan

[Baptist]

Europe has roads which allow more prolongued use of high load/speed conditions than the US, and speed limits to suit.

European domestic cars usually have more in the way of cooling parts for cars, be it transmission/oil etc.

This is the reason that the Single turbo kit was not marketed for the UK/European market, as it is not suitable for use.

 

Its pretty hard to know who's telling the truth, when the parent company is saying one thing in both written and spoken format on the matter, and the dealers saying an entirely different thing.

The problems arise when you need backup for your car, and you cant get anyone to take responsibility/ help you out.

 

Shame, as the kit is a great product.

[Guest prescience]

Europe has roads which allow more prolongued use of high load/speed conditions than the US, and speed limits to suit.

European domestic cars usually have more in the way of cooling parts for cars, be it transmission/oil etc.

This is the reason that the Single turbo kit was not marketed for the UK/European market, as it is not suitable for use.

 

I have seen that argument also but there never appears to be any reference that the US experiences vastly more variable extremes of temperature, humidity, altitude etc than the UK for example.

[Baptist]

I agree Dorian, the yanks drive just as hard as us, for sustained periods.

Who knows???

It seems to be the accepted norm though. APS are sticking to it, thats the main thing.

[Guest prescience]

Yes, a drive from San Francisco to Lake Tahoe, what's that about 200 miles and you experience a change in altitude of 7,000 feet and perhaps 60+ degsF over 3 hours?

[Removed]

I agree Dorian, the yanks drive just as hard as us, for sustained periods.

Who knows???

It seems to be the accepted norm though. APS are sticking to it, thats the main thing.

 

accepted by who though???

 

tbh seen how many US kits are fine for thousands of miles with no true dual exhausts, I'm more and more convinced that the map is at fault here....

 

 

one thing I'd like clarified though, once and for all:

 

if Joe Bloggs comes to you Allan and wants to buy an APS TT kit.... do you include the oil pan and the true dual as standard now???

[Baptist]

Accepted by APS, and as the manufacturer and seller of the kit, the dealers have to go by their word.

 

If APS dont market the kit without the exhaust, and clearly state a reason why, that must be followed.

 

APS do not supply the single turbo kit to the UK/European market as they say its not suitable due to driving conditions/load cycle. As a customer you rely on the dealers to stick to guidelines set by the parent company.

 

In Giles's case, the kit was sold as not fit for purpose, as it didnt include the exhaust system. The price list dating back to Dec 2004 states the kit as including the true dual exhaust, this wasnt supplied, and Giles was assured that his system would be fit for use.

It clearly was not fit for use, and the resulting thermal load caused an exhaust valve to come apart, the rest we know.

[Guest prescience]

I don't know all the details - the exhaust valve must have caused some catastrophic consequential damage?

[Baptist]

Yes it did, basically a valve head broke away from the stem, melting a piston, with the resulting debris destroying the crank = large hole in the side of the block.

[Removed]

tbh though, especially after reading lots of comments on my350z and motoring about the lack of support from the manufacturer (which apparrently is a very common case for many other manufacturers too) the only person you could have gone back to is the Tuner/dealer. Of course them going bust has made this whole issue basically unsolvable for Giles, unless APS directly steps in somehow, as a goodwill gesture. I don't know the details either but from february until September there's a good 7 months in between , and if they haven't done it yet, I doubt that will ever happen.

 

unfortunately with aftermarket modifications, you take your risks and sometimes, some people, have to accept the consequences. The fact that you can't even purchase replacememnt parts for the kit though, is ridiculous!

 

So Bap you are saying that Giles' car tune didn't have anything to do with the failure? Didn't G-Force's own demo car with the true dual exhasut blow up too?? imo the common denominator here is the map, not the exhaust. I have also read many knowledgeable folk's replies onthe US forums stating that yes the exhaust could have contributed to the failure, but most of them are pointing the finger at the tune.

[Baptist]

tbh though, especially after reading lots of comments on my350z and motoring about the lack of support from the manufacturer (which apparrently is a very common case for many other manufacturers too) the only person you could have gone back to is the Tuner/dealer. Of course them going bust has made this whole issue basically unsolvable for Giles, unless APS directly steps in somehow, as a goodwill gesture. I don't know the details either but from february until September there's a good 7 months in between , and if they haven't done it yet, I doubt that will ever happen.

 

Its a tricky one, made worse by the dealers folding and restarting under a new name. GForce were the first port of call, yes.

At the end of the day the kit was sold as not fit for purpose, as components were missing. APS should make sure that the dealers are playing ball, and train them accordingly. Whether the exhaust wasnt fitted for money gain, or lack of training on the manufacturers part, its still not good enough. When you splashed nearly 10k, you expect the product to work as advertised, its not like you've done it on the cheap!!!

 

unfortunately with aftermarket modifications, you take your risks and sometimes, some people, have to accept the consequences. The fact that you can't even purchase replacememnt parts for the kit though, is ridiculous!

 

That is true to some extent. The kit is sold as a reliable way to tune the car to a tested power level. Although you may get the odd failure that is down to 'bad luck' as it were, when it has been proved by an independant engine specialist that the problem was caused by something that is attributed to missing components, then its a totally different matter altogether. The replacement parts issues isnt something that I can comment on, as Im guessing we may now see a resolution, now this has gone public, and its not a problem that can be conveniently ignored.

 

So Bap you are saying that Giles' car tune didn't have anything to do with the failure? Didn't G-Force's own demo car with the true dual exhasut blow up too?? imo the common denominator here is the map, not the exhaust. I have also read many knowledgeable folk's replies onthe US forums stating that yes the exhaust could have contributed to the failure, but most of them are pointing the finger at the tune.

 

I have not seen the report on the tune that APS made, so I cannot say, from what i remember hearing, I dont think the problem was compounded by the map. I will find out.

 

I dont know anything about the GForce demo car, do you? for sure?? where did you get the information??? is it purely gossip????

Again the comments on the US boards are nothing more than speculation, I have an independent engine experts report to go on, and written evidence from APS stating that the car should not have been sold without the exhaust.

[Removed]

come on though Bap, modifying cars is an expensive and dangerous hobby. In this case you can't sue anyone (well you could try to sue in Australia, I suppose) for the reason you keep giving (item sold wasn't fit for purpose) but tbh I believe the case wouldn't have a leg to stand on in any court. There's too many question marks and too many parties involved which are not even 1-trading anymore or 2-resident in this Country

 

PS an RJN engineer (who is now doing the rebuild work on Giless car and has extensive VQ35 experience having worked on RJN's race cars before) I'm not too sure how independent that would look in any court though . Also, retrospective APS info is no good either, I have no reason to not believe Allan's statements that the bullettin has arrived AFTER the fact

 

what I'm trying to say is, @*!# happens unfortunately: I would have personally gone public straight away, to warn prospective UK TT buyers of the possibility of a failure that may or may not be attributable to the exhaust, and then got on with it. Not saying Giles is whinging, I understand he's just trying to get parts to get the TT kit in working order and sell it on. Fact remains though, no real warranty is to be had (apart maybe for the installers themselves) unless you buy it as an add-on like WRC offers.

 

The G-Force's demo car is just rumours, but quite founded afaik.

 

And yeah I noticed Peter Luxum seems to have become a little more malleable once Giles's gone public on the US forums... wrt parts I stand by what i sd before, and would have gone public straight away, maybe it would have led to a quicker resolution, who knows

[Baptist]

come on though Bap, modifying cars is an expensive and dangerous hobby. In this case you can't sue anyone (well you could try to sue in Australia, I suppose) for the reason you keep giving (item sold wasn't fit for purpose) but tbh I believe the case wouldn't have a leg to stand on in any court. There's too many question marks and too many parties involved which are not even 1-trading anymore or 2-resident in this Country

 

Your telling me that if you had spent that kind of money on a kit, and it hadnt been installed as it should, you wouldnt seek some compensation?? Its packaged as complete tuning solution, that is within the safety limits of the engines capacity for power.

 

PS an RJN engineer (who is now doing the rebuild work on Giless car and has extensive VQ35 experience having worked on RJN's race cars before) I'm not too sure how independent that would look in any court though . Also, retrospective APS info is no good either, I have no reason to not believe Allan's statements that the bullettin has arrived AFTER the fact

 

ps, Get your facts right, who said that RJN did the inspection??? not me, thats for sure. It was done by an INDEPENDENT specialist. And RJN are not doing the rebuild on Giles's car, they have worked on it, but not the engine, so sorry Val, wrong again.

 

Retrospective isnt what I'd call this, which is a direct quote from Peter from March this year. You can believe what you like, thats your right. But as you clearly dont have all the facts in front of you, all you can do is speculate.

 

"It has always been APS’s intent that the twin turbo system be sold only with the APS true dual exhaust in Europe, this is the way in which we sell/offer the product to all Europeans and I’m very surprised that the turbo system was offered to you without the exhaust, this we will take up with G Force. With a restrictive exhaust the thermal load on the engine would be massive and this certainly contributes to detonation. I would never fit the type of restrictive exhaust you have currently on a twin turbo engine, the exhaust back pressure would be extremely high at 8 to 9 PSI turbo pressure."

 

what I'm trying to say is, @*!# happens unfortunately: I would have personally gone public straight away, to warn prospective UK TT buyers of the possibility of a failure that may or may not be attributable to the exhaust, and then got on with it. Not saying Giles is whinging, I understand he's just trying to get parts to get the TT kit in working order and sell it on. Fact remains though, no real warranty is to be had (apart maybe for the installers themselves) unless you buy it as an add-on like WRC offers.

 

The G-Force's demo car is just rumours, but quite founded afaik

.

 

What if i applied that logic to your car, how would you feel?? say if i said that your plenum distorting and ruining your £70 worth of paint on it?? would you be happy with '@*!# happens'??? I hazard a guess not, and come on, thats not how you reacted, you wanted the lot paying for, paint and all.

 

Quite founded??? still rumours, not fact.

 

And yeah I noticed Peter Luxum seems to have become a little more malleable once Giles's gone public on the US forums... wrt parts I stand by what i sd before, and would have gone public straight away, maybe it would have led to a quicker resolution, who knows

 

Who knows indeed.

[WRC Tech]

Also, retrospective APS info is no good either, I have no reason to not believe Allan's statements that the bullettin has arrived AFTER the fact

 

Sorry I possibly did not make it clear. The communique' was merely a reminder to sell 350Z kits in UK/Europe inclusive of an APS exhaust.

Our web pricing was set up to show the individual costs to allow direct comparison between UK & USA to stop those that had already whinged to Australia that they were being ripped off bt UK APS dealers, without them realising the UK kits were in fact different.

As we at WRC were not really a player in the 350Z Turbo market, all of this was incidental. G-Force had established themselves as the No.1 supplier/installer of 350Z kits by this stage. I am unable to comment on how they marketed the product or how they sold it face to face.

Our first instal was carried out at the end of May / early June of this year [long after Giles' failure and subsequent visits by other non WRC customers to have their maps made less aggresive] and the map we wrote for the car we did was ultra conservative until the exhaust was fitted.

It was my fault that I ordered the "non exhaust kit" but our client was not charged for said exhaust until it arrived.

 

This has now been blown out of all proportion by people hunting devils. There are no devils to hunt/find. Please let it lie now. I understand that Giles has an issue but that is surely between him and his supplier and is possibly sub-judice and by discussing this on a public forum has potential to sway the outcome of his case ?

 

Regards

 

Allan

[Baptist]

Problem is, with these things, people are usually loathed to speak up on public forums about bad service from places they have been, as things tend to get hushed up/swept under the carpet, for the fear of legal action or being called a trouble maker.

 

Giles has decided to make his case know on the public forum, so why shouldnt people know what is happening. I have known all the goings on with his problems, but kept quiet, as he wanted to deal with it out of the public eye for his own reasons, which were respected.

 

I made the point that people should stipulate that the exhaust is fitted as mandatory to their cars, and the question was asked why that is so important, so best example is Giles's car, which was used to illustrate this point.

 

Vendors are more than happy to come to these forums when they can get another sale out of it, but when it comes to problems with their service, its a totally different story.

[Guest prescience]

Did Giles run the test pipes, I recall he was running cats for some time. What is the view on the restriction that this will provide - from an APS perspective; are the decats mandatory (I guess not since they are illegal)

[WRC Tech]

Vendors are more than happy to come to these forums when they can get another sale out of it, but when it comes to problems with their service, its a totally different story.

 

As you can see I now have 19 posts 4 or 5 of which have been in the last two days. Hardly what you would call a frequent visitor.

 

As for the back pressure/thermal loadings issue, I cannot comment on whether or not the system fitted to the car in question offered more or less or whether the test pipes aided or hindered. However the car ended up at a BHP level that would have made us uncomfortable.

 

Regards

 

Allan

[Baptist]

The car was independantly dyno'd the day before it went bang, showing a peak HP figure of 401 bhp (at the flywheel), that is 1 bhp different to what your saying you tune your cars too.

 

The back pressure thermal loading issues have been commented on by the experts, and that is what caused the problem.

 

Bottom line is that the exhaust was wrong. As a consumer, you are covered by the Sale of goods act, which Giles sought legal advice on. The problem he encountered with persuing this claim is GForce ceasing trading and popping up under a new name with new management, problem solved for them.

 

 

With regard to your visits, if more people spoke up about the service they have received from you, you might be inclined to visit more frequently.

[urbanmyth]

This if from Giles him self

 

Figures prior to failure (estimated crank) were

Power 425.3 BHP @ 6100rpm

Torque 430FtLb @ 4100rpm

Boost peaking @ 0.585bar / 8.5psi

 

http://www.350zmotoring.com/forums/show ... 374&page=2