TDI Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 I just had a thought (a rarity I know ) We are installing some plenum spacers and remapping the ecu on a 350Z this weekend. If our customer is agreeable, maybe we could do a mini blog with before/after Certificates of Performance. Would anyone want to see that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest prescience Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Tha would be interesting. Not sure anyone has remapped (reflashed) a Euro ECU or are you talking about using a Piggyback (e.g. Unichip)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDI Posted May 8, 2006 Author Share Posted May 8, 2006 Tha would be interesting. Not sure anyone has remapped (reflashed) a Euro ECU or are you talking about using a Piggyback (e.g. Unichip)? Hi Dorian, this car is using the HKS FCON SZ piggy back, which is a nice piece of kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDI Posted May 9, 2006 Author Share Posted May 9, 2006 yeah the FCON is a great unit, should give some interesting gains Please let us know Will do . We have been installing the FCON on the 350Z for a couple or three years now - it's the best one we have seen so far. I won't be here this Saturday (when the car is coming in), but assuming that our customer is willing, I have asked our guys to record some info, images and a video for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh350z Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Hi Mark Sorry to hear you won't be there on Saturday when I bring the car in. I have no problems with you posting the results on your web site for everyone here to see. You should already have the figures from stock, and figures after you fitted the F-Con. Having had the Milltek exhaust fitted, and with you fitting the AAM angled Plenum and Nismo CAI on Saturday, it will be intresting to see what gains we achive. Graham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDI Posted May 9, 2006 Author Share Posted May 9, 2006 Hi Mark Sorry to hear you won't be there on Saturday when I bring the car in. I have no problems with you posting the results on your web site for everyone here to see. You should already have the figures from stock, and figures after you fitted the F-Con. Having had the Milltek exhaust fitted, and with you fitting the AAM angled Plenum and Nismo CAI on Saturday, it will be intresting to see what gains we achive. Graham. Hi Graham, I didn't know you were a memebr - excellent stuff Sadly my Boss (She Who Must Be Obeyed) has other plans for me this Saturday Most gracious of you to allow your results to be known to the guys Perhaps the best course of action is to do a power run as it is now with the exhaust (to compare against the previous run), install the spacers and remap, then a final power run. Sounds like a plan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenG Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 yeah the FCON is a great unit, should give some interesting gains Please let us know Abbey are constantly badgering me to get this! UTEC's nicer Supposedly. The thing is, I've been modifying far too long to trust the performance of any item on the basis of hype. From what I've read, heard, and understood, it's a great bit of kit. But as with all engine-management style modifications; the kit is just a quarter of the equation. The final proof lies in the install quality, the tuning, and (here's the big bit) the fact that it's not yet installed on UK spec cars and so there may be unforseen hurdles. Fingers crossed - I'm not going to start spouting its abilities until I see them up and going! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDI Posted May 11, 2006 Author Share Posted May 11, 2006 yeah the FCON is a great unit, should give some interesting gains Please let us know Abbey are constantly badgering me to get this! UTEC's nicer That'll be great if it is - the FCON is a mighty tough act to follow What makes you say the UTEC is nicer? TDi has a culture of constant improvement, so if we can find a better product than FCON we will seriously consider endorsing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 well I guess we'll see once the details of Jermaine's visit are confirmed, waiting for the ok from the Italians on the 9th June for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh350z Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Hi Spent the day at TDI yesterday having my AAM Plenum and Nismo CAI fitted. Mark wasn't there but Sam and the other boys were very helpful. The day started with a Dyno, I had a Milltek exhaust fitted a few weeks ago and we wanted to get some figures before the Plenum and Cold Air Intake were fitted. Once the Parts were fitted another dyno was taken. I won't pretend to know much about engine tuning and I'm sure Mark will be posting the figures on here soon. The day started well, the first Dyno figures with just Exhaust fitted showed an increase in Corrected Power and Torque over the original figures I had done in February when the F-Con SZ was fitted. However, once the Plenum and CAI were fitted I wasn't so happy! The figure were well down!!! Sam did a remap on the F-Con SZ and managed the smooth the figures out but this only brought it back within the figures with just the exhaust mod. It seems that adding the Plenum and CAI had no effect on Power or Torque, it certainly didn't increase them!! The Nismo CAI is mounted behind the Headlight within the wheelwell and I know the boys at TDI where a bit concerned that it had no real air flow around it. It did, however, reduce the internal air temp from 24 deg C to 19 deg C. Here are the Max figures: (measured at [1/min]) With F-Con SZ fitted. Max Power [met hp] 253.2 @ 6035 Engine speed. Man Torque [lb-ft] 243 @ 4525 Engine speed. With F-Con SZ and exhaust fitted. Max Power [met hp] 254.1 @ 6054 Engine speed. Man Torque [lb-ft] 250 @ 4542 Engine speed. With F-Con SZ, exhaust, AAM Plenum and Nismo CAI fitted. (these figures are after remap) Max Power [met hp] 252.4 @ 6058 Engine speed. Man Torque [lb-ft] 244 @ 4536 Engine speed. I'm not sure if you can acurately do this! but I have correlated all the figures taken to match the Engine Speed of the first run taken in February and produced Graphs for Corrected Power and Corrected Torque. This does at least show whats happening when engine speed was the same. I have attached the graphs anyway, so people can see. Until Mark has the time to uploads the Dyno graphs I think these are a good indication of whats going on. It's disapointing that having the Plenum and CAI fitted seems to have no real positive effect, especially after having them shipped from USA and fitting, seems an expensive error now!! (lot of money just to increase the engine note)!! Maybe the more technically minded of you might be able to gleen something from this and let me know. I was wondering if I should have a chat with someone at Milltek? was thinking that they probably developed their exhaust on a stock UK 350z (mines JDM). Would the addition of CAI have an effect on exhaust design? I'm sure it does but would be intresting to see what Milltek think. Anyone think this would be worth doing? When Mark has a chance to read over the figures he'll probably be able to let you know more about this than me, but in the meantime, if anyone has any thoughts as to why there has been no increase I'd be intrested to hear your views. Thanks again to Sam and the boys at TDI, it was a very intresting day even though I didn't leave as happy as I thought I would be!! Regards Graham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest prescience Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Im gonna not focus on the FconSZ run in February as you may have done some correction to that. In terms of the with/without Plenum/CAI runs (yellow and purple lines in your graph), I would say 1. It is expected that up to about 4k rpm these will be exactly the same (as they are on the plot) and I very much doubt TDi tuned in this up to 4k region. The reason is that the SZ (unlike the V Pro) is as I understand it a piggy-back EMS (V Pro is standalone) and thus in this 'up to 4k region' the engine is in CLOSED LOOP ECU control and the piggy-back has no impact on fuel/timing. The ECU is using feedback from the O2 sensors to maintain an ideal air-fuel ratio of 14.7 2. Neither does it particularly surprise me that above 4k, you initally (before re-map) lost power (torque) up to redline. The reason is that the stock plenum is considered to run 'lean' on at least cylinders 1 and 2 in that range and an aftermarket pleum (AAM, Kinetix) richens up the mixture in general across all cylinders. But rich == loss of power, but safer. This loss of power should be recoverable (as TDi) have done by dialling a bit more fuel out and/or advancing timing a tad and it looks to me like they did that from somewhere beyond 5k up to redline (why so few data points BTW?) It would be extremely interesting to see the Air-Fuel ratio plots for the two runs because without them the above is supposition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh350z Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Thanks for the reply Dorian Sam at TDI did say he wouldn't be able to do much up to 4K and I'm sure Mark will be able to help with the Air-Fuel ratio plots for the two runs when he gets the chance. As for the amount of data points, I have only been able to add the engine speed points that where on the Certificate of Performance that I got from TDI, although they did start at 1500 this time as apposed to 2000 on the inital run in Feb. My main concern now is whether I keep the Plenum and Intake on the car or remove them, seeing as there is no gain over the exhaust figures. Do you think the Intake and Exhaust may be working against eachother? (sorry if I'm talking S*** here, as I say, not really that knowledgeable when it comes to tuning) I must admit, I was hoping for a gain when exhaust was put on (which I seem to have) and thought adding the Plenum + CAI would give me some sort of gain over that. This makes me wonder if some people that have added a Plenum spacer or CAI and say they have felt an increase in torque just imagine it's faster or it may be that the car just feels a little more responsive! Especially as there needed to be quite a bit of remapping done on mine to get it back up to the figures before they were installed. Thanks for reply, hopefully Mark will be able to give you a far more experienced view on the runs. P.S. At about 2000k in first gear I'm now getting what I can only describe as a fluttering in the engine note! Haven't had time to really check this out but It may be the Plenum vibrating on the strut bar. There was only about 2mm gap between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest prescience Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 The fluttering does indeed sound like the strut bar. Just undo the outer 2 lock nuts and turn the central bolt to raise bar very slightly and re-tighten outer lock nuts - easy job. Your car engine is basically a pump so that the more air you can get through it, the better it should perform. I would expect that gains are achievable with the plenum and exhaust but not so sure about the intake given what you say about restrictive inlet. I might be tempted myself to take the intake back to stock and see how that does after a re-tune - but the cost does mount-up. You will experience any gains that are to be had because you have a piggy-back EMS, those with stock ECU will experience very little benefit at top-end (if any) with the mods you have on there or similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanmyth Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 This is what WRC got on a standard car so don’t really why your power is as low as that http://www.350z-uk.com/forum/viewtopic ... hlight=wrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDI Posted May 15, 2006 Author Share Posted May 15, 2006 Hi Spent the day at TDI yesterday having my AAM Plenum and Nismo CAI fitted. Mark wasn't there but Sam and the other boys were very helpful. The day started with a Dyno, I had a Milltek exhaust fitted a few weeks ago and we wanted to get some figures before the Plenum and Cold Air Intake were fitted. Once the Parts were fitted another dyno was taken. I won't pretend to know much about engine tuning and I'm sure Mark will be posting the figures on here soon. The day started well, the first Dyno figures with just Exhaust fitted showed an increase in Corrected Power and Torque over the original figures I had done in February when the F-Con SZ was fitted. However, once the Plenum and CAI were fitted I wasn't so happy! The figure were well down!!! Sam did a remap on the F-Con SZ and managed the smooth the figures out but this only brought it back within the figures with just the exhaust mod. It seems that adding the Plenum and CAI had no effect on Power or Torque, it certainly didn't increase them!! The Nismo CAI is mounted behind the Headlight within the wheelwell and I know the boys at TDI where a bit concerned that it had no real air flow around it. It did, however, reduce the internal air temp from 24 deg C to 19 deg C. Here are the Max figures: (measured at [1/min]) With F-Con SZ fitted. Max Power [met hp] 253.2 @ 6035 Engine speed. Man Torque [lb-ft] 243 @ 4525 Engine speed. With F-Con SZ and exhaust fitted. Max Power [met hp] 254.1 @ 6054 Engine speed. Man Torque [lb-ft] 250 @ 4542 Engine speed. With F-Con SZ, exhaust, AAM Plenum and Nismo CAI fitted. (these figures are after remap) Max Power [met hp] 252.4 @ 6058 Engine speed. Man Torque [lb-ft] 244 @ 4536 Engine speed. I'm not sure if you can acurately do this! but I have correlated all the figures taken to match the Engine Speed of the first run taken in February and produced Graphs for Corrected Power and Corrected Torque. This does at least show whats happening when engine speed was the same. I have attached the graphs anyway, so people can see. Until Mark has the time to uploads the Dyno graphs I think these are a good indication of whats going on. It's disapointing that having the Plenum and CAI fitted seems to have no real positive effect, especially after having them shipped from USA and fitting, seems an expensive error now!! (lot of money just to increase the engine note)!! Maybe the more technically minded of you might be able to gleen something from this and let me know. I was wondering if I should have a chat with someone at Milltek? was thinking that they probably developed their exhaust on a stock UK 350z (mines JDM). Would the addition of CAI have an effect on exhaust design? I'm sure it does but would be intresting to see what Milltek think. Anyone think this would be worth doing? When Mark has a chance to read over the figures he'll probably be able to let you know more about this than me, but in the meantime, if anyone has any thoughts as to why there has been no increase I'd be intrested to hear your views. Thanks again to Sam and the boys at TDI, it was a very intresting day even though I didn't leave as happy as I thought I would be!! Regards Graham. That's a great shame Graham - I am very sorry for your disappointment. We have no experience of the parts that you bought so are unable to advise you whether they are good, bad or indifferent, but without doubt they do not work in this combination on a car of your current specification. It may well be the case that they will work better if you had more efficient exhaust manifolds and de-cats, or it could be that they will never work better than they are now. Unfortunately there's only one way to find out, and that's by testing. Please let me know if I can be of any help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenG Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 Sorry to hear of your disappointment; let us know if you find a solution. Fingers crossed for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDI Posted May 15, 2006 Author Share Posted May 15, 2006 Im gonna not focus on the FconSZ run in February as you may have done some correction to that. In terms of the with/without Plenum/CAI runs (yellow and purple lines in your graph), I would say 1. It is expected that up to about 4k rpm these will be exactly the same (as they are on the plot) and I very much doubt TDi tuned in this up to 4k region. The reason is that the SZ (unlike the V Pro) is as I understand it a piggy-back EMS (V Pro is standalone) and thus in this 'up to 4k region' the engine is in CLOSED LOOP ECU control and the piggy-back has no impact on fuel/timing. The ECU is using feedback from the O2 sensors to maintain an ideal air-fuel ratio of 14.7 2. Neither does it particularly surprise me that above 4k, you initally (before re-map) lost power (torque) up to redline. The reason is that the stock plenum is considered to run 'lean' on at least cylinders 1 and 2 in that range and an aftermarket pleum (AAM, Kinetix) richens up the mixture in general across all cylinders. But rich == loss of power, but safer. This loss of power should be recoverable (as TDi) have done by dialling a bit more fuel out and/or advancing timing a tad and it looks to me like they did that from somewhere beyond 5k up to redline (why so few data points BTW?) It would be extremely interesting to see the Air-Fuel ratio plots for the two runs because without them the above is supposition We did calibrate the a/f below 4k, it is just that with n/a cars most power gains are realised in the mid and higher rpm's, and especially with Grahams car there were no gains to be had below 4k from tuning. The FCON SZ and V Pro are both "piggy back ecu"s althogh the V Pro can be also used as a stand alone (but is very rarely done). The ecu is in open loop at all rpm's when at full throttle (not just above 4k). We can also map the closed loop cycles if needed by introducing 02 simulators (but rarely need to do so). Regarding the air/fuel distribution of the plenum, if anything the front 2 cylinders run richer (not leaner) that the other 4 because they do not have as much air flow. After tuning, the a/f's were the same. Hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh350z Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 Hi Here are the Dyno's for anyone thats interested. Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDI Posted May 15, 2006 Author Share Posted May 15, 2006 My main concern now is whether I keep the Plenum and Intake on the car or remove them, seeing as there is no gain over the exhaust figures. If it was my car I would be inclined to try it with the standard air box, as the one you have does have areas of concern over it's design (this will allow validation of the effectiveness of the plenum spacers and air box individually), then I would be looking to use better exhaust manifolds. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDI Posted May 15, 2006 Author Share Posted May 15, 2006 This is what WRC got on a standard car so don’t really why your power is as low as that http://www.350z-uk.com/forum/viewtopic ... hlight=wrc I looks like Allan is quoting estimated flywheel figures, whereas our Certificate of Performance shows figures at the hubs. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WRC Tech Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 This is what WRC got on a standard car so don’t really why your power is as low as that http://www.350z-uk.com/forum/viewtopic ... hlight=wrc I looks like Allan is quoting estimated flywheel figures, whereas our Certificate of Performance shows figures at the hubs. Mark Yep it was our dyno extrapolation of BHP at the fly. However IIRC it was c246 At the rollers. Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh350z Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 Hi Was Just wondering if anyone has made similar mods to mine and have dyno readings that show an increase/decrease in performance. Anyone installed a Plenum spacer or Kinetix Plenum and had the car on a dyno to check results of modification? Or installed a Nismo CAI and had car tuned? I would be very interested to hear other peoples experiences with these mods as this will give me an Idea as to which way I go from here. I think I will probably try refitting the stock air intake in the future, this would at least give some clues to whether the AAM Angled Plenum actually has a positive or negitive effect. Any help would be much appreciated. Cheers Graham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 I have "sort of" similar mods to yours mate, but not dynoed it properly yet..... but when the UTEC goes on, I guess all wll be revealed as to baseline runs and after tuning runs I do have a dyno run with only exhaust on too, on a different dyno though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh350z Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Look forward to seeing what results you get with the UTEC. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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