Yet another option to kill off motoring - the Dystopian thread

[galaxyg]

3 minutes ago, stanski said:

I have said it before where is Mr Fusion?

I mean even Delorean had that in the 80s where did we go wrong since?

Quoting: "We wanted flying cars, instead we got Twitter. We wanted clean energy; we got cryptocurrencies that use as much electricity as Argentina. We wanted sustainable transport, instead we got millions of car-hire drivers"

[stanski]

49 minutes ago, galaxyg said:

Quoting: "We wanted flying cars, instead we got Twitter. We wanted clean energy; we got cryptocurrencies that use as much electricity as Argentina. We wanted sustainable transport, instead we got millions of car-hire drivers"

It's because all the things today are easier to do/make than the stuff we really wanted! Although we did get flip mobile phones in the early 2000s so thats a bit Star treky isn't it? 

Money motivation and laziness that's the issue today. Lacking the first 2 bucketfuls of the other.

[GranTurismoEra]

Self driving autonomous cars easily hacked by hacktivists and people looking to cause mayhem

 

Smart cities, self driven A.I cars around Smart cities. Autonomous cabs, CCTV drones and all the things that make a bladerunner themed city. Robot maids, robot police accompanied by judge dredds, private military corporations, guns for hire, increased surveillance and security. Robot soldiers, A.I controlled fighter jets aka 6th generation fighters with mini swarm drones (Tempest).

 

So the Technology race has begun. People are talking about 4k and 8k screens. Japanese, Chinese and Americans are laughing in the background because thats old news. The idea of arming satellites in Space with turrets pointing at rival nations Satellites is not new. America has effectively developed a laser cannon to shoot down jets and destroy boats.

 

While its all fascinating, it will be the downfall of society when they realise all the technology can be compromised. No amount of Cybersecurity will make these fool proof. Then everyone has an agenda.

 

The latest news is some British Athletes have had their iCloud hacked and naked pictures leaked.

 

They cant even protect cloud data. I say good luck. 

 

30mph on the high street. A kid hacks into Tesla systems and takes control of a random autonomous vehicle. Sends a command to override preset routes. Runs over 50 pedestrians on Oxford street. The chain continues all around the city within a couple of minutes before Teslas Cybersecurity regains control of the situation. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by GranTurismoEra

[gangzoom]

6 hours ago, GranTurismoEra said:

Self driving autonomous cars easily hacked by hacktivists and people looking to cause mayhem

 

 

I like your doomsday situation and I can see it happening but equally you can apply the same worries to power stations, the whole telephone network etc.

 

Ultimately it comes down to if full autonomous driving will improve productivity to society as a whole. Perhaps I cannot wait, never have to worry about parking, never have to even 'own' a car, non more dead commuter time, 24/7 home deliveries. 

 

People worry about where to park to charge their EVs, what if you never need to worry about that because with an autonomous car you get dropped off somewhere and the car than go and charge at an automated depot. In the morning you just summon it to you like with Uber. Can you imagine city streets with no parked cars??

 

EVs and autonomous driving appear to be co developing at a rate which may change how severy one views their relationship with cars. I can see the concept of 'owing' a car becoming like owning a horse. A few will do it for pleasure but for most it'll become a pay per month on demand service.

 

Waymo has shown the tech is now ready, the next step is making money from it - something Google is historically awful at. Waymo is now on the cusp of starting their Robotaxi service in Califronia, probably the most productive landmass on this planet interms of tech. It'll be fascinating how Waymo gets on in their home state in the next 12 months.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/23/21591045/california-robotaxi-paid-rides-cpuc-permits

Edited November 24, 2020 by gangzoom

[Stutopia]

6 hours ago, GranTurismoEra said:

Self driving autonomous cars easily hacked by hacktivists and people looking to cause mayhem

 

Smart cities, self driven A.I cars around Smart cities. Autonomous cabs, CCTV drones and all the things that make a bladerunner themed city. Robot maids, robot police accompanied by judge dredds, private military corporations, guns for hire, increased surveillance and security. Robot soldiers, A.I controlled fighter jets aka 6th generation fighters with mini swarm drones (Tempest).

 

So the Technology race has begun. People are talking about 4k and 8k screens. Japanese, Chinese and Americans are laughing in the background because thats old news. The idea of arming satellites in Space with turrets pointing at rival nations Satellites is not new. America has effectively developed a laser cannon to shoot down jets and destroy boats.

 

While its all fascinating, it will be the downfall of society when they realise all the technology can be compromised. No amount of Cybersecurity will make these fool proof. Then everyone has an agenda.

 

The latest news is some British Athletes have had their iCloud hacked and naked pictures leaked.

 

They cant even protect cloud data. I say good luck. 

 

30mph on the high street. A kid hacks into Tesla systems and takes control of a random autonomous vehicle. Sends a command to override preset routes. Runs over 50 pedestrians on Oxford street. The chain continues all around the city within a couple of minutes before Teslas Cybersecurity regains control of the situation. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wasn’t that worried about most of this but BRITISH athletes getting their iClouds hacked? We didn’t do a Brexit to get THIS!

 

That’s it, I’m turning in my internet and any vehicle with an ECU and going back to the 1950s, there was never any dangerous military hardware back before the 50s AND you couldn’t steal photos because they were made of paper instead, which is unstealable.

 

If you can’t put a half decent, unique password on your accounts, its like leaving your front door unlocked - except one is GETTING HACKED BECAUSE OF EVIL TECHNOLOGY and the other is common sense.

 

[ilogikal1]

3 hours ago, gangzoom said:

 

I like your doomsday situation and I can see it happening but equally you can apply the same worries to power stations, the whole telephone network etc.

 

Ultimately it comes down to if full autonomous driving will improve productivity to society as a whole. Perhaps I cannot wait, never have to worry about parking, never have to even 'own' a car, non more dead commuter time, 24/7 home deliveries. 

 

People worry about where to park to charge their EVs, what if you never need to worry about that because with an autonomous car you get dropped off somewhere and the car than go and charge at an automated depot. In the morning you just summon it to you like with Uber. Can you imagine city streets with no parked cars??

Im genuinely intrigued by this notion. You mention it yourself, the problem already exists, Uber already exists as a solution; so what exactly is it about EV’s that would mean everyone switches to using taxis instead all of sudden when they haven’t done already?

[stanski]

Sadly most issues with tech are not being hacked but poor design /architecture and having low paid idiots look after them. 

 

I have worked both on commercial and secure government contracts and I have to say the secure stuff is annoyingly secure to the point of being unworkable sometimes, expect big public IT is generally pants because it's mismanaged. iCloud accounts getting hacked is nothing, anything cloud is fair game, it's just your stuff on someone else's computer somewhere else, you don't know where and how good their security is. 

 

From the commercial side, I said it before they outsource and cost cut that's when the problems start. I used to work for a global company and some of the issues were scary. A friend works for a well known global soft drinks brand and it's hilarious the things you hear, but not for my mate who has to work long hours to fix it!

A lot of stuff never reaches the press but if you want to find out read The Register https://www.theregister.com/ 

 

Ignoring tin hats and paranoia most of this kind of behaviour was already predicted in the 1920/30s before we even had computers.

 

I can see the advantages of self driving stuff but for me personally no thank you.

 

Cars will become white goods, which in effect that's what they are we just love them for the freedom and fun they bring.

 

 

Pandora's box is open we can't go back to the 50s now, we just have to be sensible what we allow these large powerful corporations do with all the data they collect about you. It's not that you have done something wrong or how they sell it to someone else to target you for sales but who else uses that data against you if they have nefarious intentions?

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by stanski

[GranTurismoEra]

3 hours ago, SuperStu said:

I wasn’t that worried about most of this but BRITISH athletes getting their iClouds hacked? We didn’t do a Brexit to get THIS!

 

That’s it, I’m turning in my internet and any vehicle with an ECU and going back to the 1950s, there was never any dangerous military hardware back before the 50s AND you couldn’t steal photos because they were made of paper instead, which is unstealable.

 

If you can’t put a half decent, unique password on your accounts, its like leaving your front door unlocked - except one is GETTING HACKED BECAUSE OF EVIL TECHNOLOGY and the other is common sense.

 

Password123 is the most secure password available. 

[stanski]

4 minutes ago, GranTurismoEra said:

Password123 is the most secure password available. 

Damn it man!!!!! Now I have to spend the morning changing all of mine before those pesky Russian/Chinese/Americans get in. 

Don't want them to see all my secret Hornby Model Railway fettishes....

[GranTurismoEra]

The idea of changing relationships with 'autos' is already in existence. Thats why we have popular 3 year pcp and lease. 

 

Summoning vehicles like a Cyberpunk videogame sounds cool, and makes us seem like we are in the future. 

 

My dream is to have the world dominated by an alternative biofuel especially in developing and third world countries. Not dominated by Electric vehicles. That may be the case for Europe and America. How viable is it for a country where basic Electricity supply is not consistent. In Nigeria people are driving Teslas but they can only charge at home as the network infrastructure is non existent. Some plans are afoot to create public charging infrastructure in countries like Ghana but its not a thing.

 

Electric cars are not realistic in some places. We should be seeking alternative cleaner fuel as well.

 

Technology that aids laziness a word now substituted for convenience, is not really great for a society that is already fat and isolated. Why not speed up that evolution by pushing through convenience tech to feel like were are moving forward to the future lol....

[stanski]

52 minutes ago, GranTurismoEra said:

The idea of changing relationships with 'autos' is already in existence. Thats why we have popular 3 year pcp and lease. 

 

Summoning vehicles like a Cyberpunk videogame sounds cool, and makes us seem like we are in the future. 

 

My dream is to have the world dominated by an alternative biofuel especially in developing and third world countries. Not dominated by Electric vehicles. That may be the case for Europe and America. How viable is it for a country where basic Electricity supply is not consistent. In Nigeria people are driving Teslas but they can only charge at home as the network infrastructure is non existent. Some plans are afoot to create public charging infrastructure in countries like Ghana but its not a thing.

 

Electric cars are not realistic in some places. We should be seeking alternative cleaner fuel as well.

 

Technology that aids laziness a word now substituted for convenience, is not really great for a society that is already fat and isolated. Why not speed up that evolution by pushing through convenience tech to feel like were are moving forward to the future lol....

I have to agree.

 

I would prefer they focussed on producing a clean fuel compatible with todays engines. We can continue to use what we have and eV if you like.

It would allow a quicker reduction of emissions without everybody having to put their hand in their pockets trying to afford an expensive EV or hybrid? Of course I am biased to internal combustion, but off shore wind farms don't grow they have to be made from concrete and GRP and other not so friendly materials. 

 

I sometimes wonder if Wall-E is actually a documentary, the way we are heading, convenience is laziness in my eyes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alIq_wG9FNk  

[galaxyg]

There is already a system in place where you can summon a car to take you anywhere, without having to drive it or park it - Taxis. Most people prefer to own a car instead. Why would they suddenly swap to a self-driving taxi if a human-driven taxi already wasn't a good enough option to give up the car?

 

Ignoring the negatives of knackered seats and unsolicited opinions.    But seriously - we're all going to give up driving because a slight variation on the taxi theme becomes available?  Unless it's a lot lot cheaper by the mile than a taxi, I don't think so.

Edited November 24, 2020 by galaxyg

[stanski]

2 hours ago, galaxyg said:

There is already a system in place where you can summon a car to take you anywhere, without having to drive it or park it - Taxis. Most people prefer to own a car instead. Why would they suddenly swap to a self-driving taxi if a human-driven taxi already wasn't a good enough option to give up the car?

 

Ignoring the negatives of knackered seats and unsolicited opinions.    But seriously - we're all going to give up driving because a slight variation on the taxi theme becomes available?  Unless it's a lot lot cheaper by the mile than a taxi, I don't think so.

The video is funny but sadly probably going to be true! 

 

https://youtu.be/uV9ZDF09pkY

Edited November 24, 2020 by stanski

[gangzoom]

On 24/11/2020 at 15:08, galaxyg said:

Unless it's a lot lot cheaper by the mile than a taxi, I don't think so.

It will be, Taxis are expensive not because you are been picked in a top of the range brand new car (usually the opposite). Taxis are expensive because you have to pay for the human to drive you, get rid of the human cost all of sudden it becomes really cheap especially for EVs. Our EV costs under 5p per mile in fuel+tyres. 

 

Its not just Taxis, you can shift a huge amount of logistic transport overnight, after all autonomous lorries can run mid night just as well as in the morning. Take away the need to park cars at work/home, suddenly you free up massive amounts of land/space to do different stuff with. 

 

The way autonomous personal transportation can change how we work/live will be massive. 

[ilogikal1]

But then you will be being picked up in a brand new, cutting edge of technology vehicle, which we all knows is notoriously cheap...

 

The cost will eventually be really cheap... just as soon as all the outlay costs are recouped, maintenance costs, wear and tear costs, cleaning costs, monitoring costs and, ultimately, the greed of businesses who want to make money suddenly disappear too then you’re onto a winner.

 

The biggest cost of running a taxi is not the human at the wheel.

[stanski]

12 minutes ago, ilogikal1 said:

But then you will be being picked up in a brand new, cutting edge of technology vehicle, which we all knows is notoriously cheap...

 

The cost will eventually be really cheap... just as soon as all the outlay costs are recouped, maintenance costs, wear and tear costs, cleaning costs, monitoring costs and, ultimately, the greed of businesses who want to make money suddenly disappear too then you’re onto a winner.

 

The biggest cost of running a taxi is not the human at the wheel.

But I don't want autonomous I was flying taxis!https://youtu.be/IJhlD6q71YA

[GranTurismoEra]

3 hours ago, gangzoom said:

It will be, Taxis are expensive not because you are been picked in a top of the range brand new car (usually the opposite). Taxis are expensive because you have to pay for the human to drive you, get rid of the human cost all of sudden it becomes really cheap especially for EVs. Our EV costs under 5p per mile in fuel+tyres. 

 

Its not just Taxis, you can shift a huge amount of logistic transport overnight, after all autonomous lorries can run mid night just as well as in the morning. Take away the need to park cars at work/home, suddenly you free up massive amounts of land/space to do different stuff with. 

 

The way autonomous personal transportation can change how we work/live will be massive. 

EU, East Asia and America. Oh and any island trying to keep up. Rest of the world is not really interested. Water, Electric and all the stuff we take for granted are priority ofcourse. Then maybe..

 

While you're killing off motoring and depriving yourself of one of lifes freedoms other side dont care

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by GranTurismoEra

[coldel]

I have to scan my shopping and bag it myself instead of a human doing it for me, the price is still the same. A cup of tea from a self service machine is literally hot water and a tea bag but will cost £2+ 

 

There is no logic in what you are saying about human removal reducing cost because that’s been happening for years, decades, across many industries and prices do not tumble to the pence level you are describing. 

[galaxyg]

Just now, coldel said:

prices do not tumble to the pence level you are describing. 

The money will instead go into the pockets of the shareholders.

[gangzoom]

6 hours ago, galaxyg said:

The money will instead go into the pockets of the shareholders.

And that's exactly why this tech will come regardless of what people think or even want. Autonomous vehicles that can drive/work pretty much 24/7 non stop with no unions to worry about, never moan about working conditions etc.

 

Creative companies will be able to send their profits through the roof. 

[gangzoom]

10 hours ago, ilogikal1 said:

The biggest cost of running a taxi is not the human at the wheel.

The biggest cost of any business is HR, if you want to save money reducing you're HR costs is by far the biggest cost. Why is the transport industry any different?

Edited November 26, 2020 by gangzoom

[GranTurismoEra]

And what happens to the mass job losses.....Since you only need one person in a control room pressing X and O buttons in the office?

 

Dont say retrain in something else as most jobs will be automated thanks to advancement in technology. A lot of so called corporate IT networking jobs will be automated and simplified. Not to mention drivers

 

More strain on the benefits systems from automation and mass job losses. Jobs going to China and India. Parking wardens, Street cleans all replaced by robots.

 

Job losses equals increase on benefit claims, insurance claims, benefit and insurance fraud, increased crime, exodus of skilled labour to developing countries. People also not bothered to work due to further wage compression.

 

Cheaper fares not really, increased dividend payouts from increased profits. No ones doing anyone favours. You may share a ride with 3 others in an autonomous vehicle. It will most likely be the same pricing or increased pricing due to government imposed taxes and newly introduced VED on Electric vehicles.

 

The ultimate goal is to ban non commercial vehicles Electric and ICE from the city center and introduce congestion charges on all vehicles by 2030. That will be replicated across all city and town centers by 2030 onwards.

[ilogikal1]

1 hour ago, gangzoom said:

The biggest cost of any business is HR, if you want to save money reducing you're HR costs is by far the biggest cost. Why is the transport industry any different?

As an auditor, I can tell you that it is not. Yes, certain industries have high HR costs, but only in a few specific industries are the HR costs the largest spend.

 

However, as Col more eloquently demonstrated, any cost saving of automation is not typically passed onto the end user, why would taxi services be any different?

[stanski]

I think I should rename this thread - The Dystopian Future thread!  

 

I think all of you are correct in one way or another. If you automate stuff people lose their jobs? If people lose their jobs there is no need to worry about taxis anyway, why would you bother, you cant afford it and have nowhere to go unless its a job interview, which will probably be via zoom now anyway! Current Pandemic perfect example.

 

Most of these organisations will use cloud providers to keep maintenance costs down. The cloud providers will be mega automated and monitored as much as they can be and employ minimal staff to save cost. The price of providing that service will be high to the companies who offer the taxi or coffee supplies or whatever, because the cloud shareholders want their investment growth. The cost to you and me will probably be the same as today, if it is not they will want something else from you such as personal data about you, don't forget that is a commodity in itself? Why do you think phone apps are free, because they want to show off how good their programming is so Google employs them?

 

So the only real change in the future will be less human contact, restricted use of personal vehicles or heavy tax on its use. Every organisation looks at the pay as you go model from mobile phone companies and adapts it to fit their industry. The Americans have been doing this for years.

 

I had to sell my tin hat on ebay last week, so I am using an old Le Creuset pan - bleeding heavy I can tell you - those microwaves wont be infiltrating my head comrade! 

 

 

[Ekona]

Alternatively, what would be the point in pushing for automated taxis if most people who used to commute now work from home? If that continues, then the desire will be a lot less for companies to bother with. 
 

Mass automated motoring is an awful long way off. It’ll only take a couple of software glitches and big accidents to set it back years while safety is reassessed, which will likely happen when the first big push comes. That’s inevitable.