Ekona Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 The legendary Supra only sold 3600 models last year, so what will this sell? Half that at best? And how is making a car with retro styling going to attract younger buyers? I really hope Nissan didn’t spend £250M on this, as that’s way too much going on some crap maths by me. Assuming £35k selling cost (hey I’ll be optimistic!), 2000 cars a year over four years gives £280M income. Now assume each car costs £10k to build (incl labour and sell through costs etc) and you can see why I’m worried. This will need to be a £40k plus car minimum, prob nearer £45k, and then you’d be bonkers to buy one over the rivals. Just like how you’d be bonkers to buy a Supra over the rivals too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 Have you ever actually seen a cost price for a new vehicle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msitpro Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Ekona said: Just like how you’d be bonkers to buy a Supra over the rivals too. Confused by this... Competition being ... M2 at it's price point? Far less interesting to look at. What other cars am I missing that are rwd coupes around £45-60k? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 1 hour ago, davey_83 said: Have you ever actually seen a cost price for a new vehicle? Nope, hence poor maths Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 10 minutes ago, msitpro said: Confused by this... Competition being ... M2 at it's price point? Far less interesting to look at. What other cars am I missing that are rwd coupes around £45-60k? Cayman and A110, both significantly better to drive and also more interesting to look at, if that’s your main thing. Cayman available as a manual as well, Alpine a complete one-off that you’ll very rarely come across (I’ve still not seen one in the flesh round here!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msitpro Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 15 minutes ago, Ekona said: Cayman and A110, both significantly better to drive and also more interesting to look at, if that’s your main thing. Cayman available as a manual as well, Alpine a complete one-off that you’ll very rarely come across (I’ve still not seen one in the flesh round here!). Good ideas... The Alpine I can see holding value as well. I've heard very good things. Only downside is it's a 4 cyl. Amazing curb weight around 1100kg. I'd say it's quite a different car to a Supra, M2, M4, Cayman. Cayman is one of few cars I'd realistically move to from the Z, although I think running/parts costs would be far higher. Also the GTS with the 6 cyl is £65-80k... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 3 hours ago, Ekona said: The legendary Supra only sold 3600 models last year, so what will this sell? Half that at best? And how is making a car with retro styling going to attract younger buyers? I really hope Nissan didn’t spend £250M on this, as that’s way too much going on some crap maths by me. Assuming £35k selling cost (hey I’ll be optimistic!), 2000 cars a year over four years gives £280M income. Now assume each car costs £10k to build (incl labour and sell through costs etc) and you can see why I’m worried. This will need to be a £40k plus car minimum, prob nearer £45k, and then you’d be bonkers to buy one over the rivals. Just like how you’d be bonkers to buy a Supra over the rivals too. I saw a build sheet for a mk7 Golf GTi *basic spec which was 10k less than RRP. Fair to say VW are able to build cars a lot cheaper than Nissan due to the massively shared platform of the Golf, compared to what will be the Z35. If RRP is to be 35k for the new base Z car, I would guess the cost to build and ship to a dealer would be nearer 28k. So yes, poor maths guessing 10k lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoogyRev Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 4 hours ago, msitpro said: What other cars am I missing that are rwd coupes around £45-60k? Mustang? Camero? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 3 hours ago, davey_83 said: I saw a build sheet for a mk7 Golf GTi *basic spec which was 10k less than RRP. Fair to say VW are able to build cars a lot cheaper than Nissan due to the massively shared platform of the Golf, compared to what will be the Z35. If RRP is to be 35k for the new base Z car, I would guess the cost to build and ship to a dealer would be nearer 28k. So yes, poor maths guessing 10k lol Hey, I was hoping that it would be cheap given that the Z34 has been around for years and it costs them nothing to design that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 You mean like 911's....... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 Hey, compared to how long Nissan have dragged out the Z33 and Z34, Porsche look positively proactive in that department! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GranTurismoEra Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) Development of a new car on a new platform from the ground up of a GTR according to a former shareholder is close to a billion dollars. Thats why the R36 is on hold until 2023 at least until the have recovered losses from the last 2 years. Similar costs could be applied to a totally new Zed. The car will be at least £45,000 as the Supra is around £52,000. Design wise it will look slimmer and less bulky which was the complaint with the 370...... people wanted it to return to the original. A simpler design than the Supra with less busy curves and plastic bodykit A 4 pot Cayman will still be more expensive with barely any options. They are bringing back more 6 cylinder options at the very least will be £65,000. Competition is around the £50,000 mark and this car will undercut all of them. If UK doesnt buy America and Canadian market will make up for it. Why wouldn't young people buy a retro looking car. The designer said the car isnt completely retro looking. Its still a modern car with some retro looking cues.. Lots of young people are buying the Honda E despite its poor range. Nissan probably wont make £250 million from sales. Thats what the volume sales of SUVS and Trucks are for. So people need to go buy SUVs and fund the vanity projects involving sports cars for people who dont need more than 2 seats. Sports cars have their uses for the brand like Marketing capabilities. People see the 370 Nismo and think that cant be a Nissan. Is that a Nissan, says it is. Didnt know they make cars that look like that. Might visit later on..etc...Ends up buying an SUV...which in turn funds the existence of a 12 year old Z and another one. The uk management are definitely interested in bringing it to the uk having spoken to a GTR Salesman. We just need joe public on board or they might skip EU altogether. Which is fine as maybe some dealers will import them from Japan. Edited July 25, 2020 by GranTurismoEra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 The Cayman, Z4 and TT were always the main competitors to the Zeds, price wasn’t relevant to the masses when buying a sports car as (usually) a 2nd or 3rd car. What makes you think this time will be any different? The extra cost can be financed away, and the tempting resale value (compared with a Nissan) makes having a premium badge worth it for some. Put it this way, Alpine have struggled with a class-leading car that genuinely stands out from the crowd: why would a rebodied 370 which wasn’t even class-leading when it came out ten years ago fare any better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Dan you are on a Z forum you know........ No one on here bought a zed due to it being the best car in its class on paper? Or because it has great resell. A Z is a corner stone of the modding scene, a Z3/4 or Cayman certainly aren't. At the recent successful mids meet, every single Z there was different and all modified. Maybe this is the appeal over its competitors to potential owners. Back in the day, the Z4, TT and Cayman sounded rubbish compared to a VQ and look like girls cars - subjective I know but hey we're on a Zee forum right. Just because something doesn't out sell its competitors, isn't a barometer to whether its a good car or not. Nissan doesn't just build cars to be a success in the UK, other markets as mentioned above play there part in weather something is economically viable. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Which is why I’m concerned, as the Z34 never did the business. And ultimately, this is business. I’m not even going to go there on the flat six sounding worse than the VQ. Apart from recommending Otex to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Fact is no Japanese sports cars out sell their European rivals, Nissan Toyota are not sports car manufacturers like Porsche and don't need to rely solely on sport car sales. It's no secret that Porsche rely heavily on Cayenne sales to prop up the rest of the range. If you understand the above to be correct, then your concerns aren't nothing to worry over. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Ekona said: Which is why I’m concerned, as the Z34 never did the business. And ultimately, this is business. As I have said before, the 370 was released just after the world-wide Financial collapse in 2008 and by the time people had money in their pockets to buy niche cars again in the following years the market had moved on. When the 350 was released back in 2002/3 there were no serious competitors, apart from which the 350 was a real game changer (justifiably) in days when car perks for reps was rampant they became the mile-muncher of choice, as echoed by the respected car testers at the time. When I bought my first one-year old Zed in 2005 it was one of several ex-company Zeds in one garage alone to choose from, hence it remained hugely popular for several years. We still do not know exactly what the 370 successor will be, but with car technology changing so fast I fear Nissan will be behind the game again, given what has been said so far.....unless they uncover another real game changer like the 350 was.....and if the price is right. Edited July 25, 2020 by Ebized Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 4 hours ago, GranTurismoEra said: Design wise it will look slimmer and less bulky which was the complaint with the 370...... people wanted it to return to the original. A simpler design than the Supra with less busy curves and plastic bodykit "People" "wanted" a GT86/BRZ. Until it was an option to buy one. As one of plenty examples. What "people" "want" and what people actually buy are two different things and Nissan are only interested in the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GranTurismoEra Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, davey_83 said: Fact is no Japanese sports cars out sell their European rivals, Nissan Toyota are not sports car manufacturers like Porsche and don't need to rely solely on sport car sales. It's no secret that Porsche rely heavily on Cayenne sales to prop up the rest of the range. If you understand the above to be correct, then your concerns aren't nothing to worry over. They frankly dont outsell Germans anywhere. Japanese also love european cars. Based purely on that. These cars shouldn't exist. Probably explains Mazda, Hyundai and Kia stance on performance cars. The Stinger might soon be Electric. Thank goodness for Nissan, Honda and Toyota. The vanity project continues. @ebized i cant see much tech in the new Z apart from POSSIBLE valvetronic, LSD and start/stop for emissions. The tech will remain in their SUVs etc. Whatever that may be in 16 months. If people want game changer just chuck up an extra £20-£40,000 for the privilege and then they can leave Z shortcomings to the fanboys to deal with? lol Hoping for a lighter car to make up for lack of gimmicks and gizmondos Edited July 25, 2020 by GranTurismoEra 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msitpro Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 On 25/07/2020 at 07:50, Ekona said: Put it this way, Alpine have struggled with a class-leading car that genuinely stands out from the crowd: why would a rebodied 370 which wasn’t even class-leading when it came out ten years ago fare any better? Because Nissan actually do have more (modern) reputation for sports cars. Renault's Alpine history is a lot longer ago and out of most people's memories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRF4N Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 And it looks $hite 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msitpro Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 On 25/07/2020 at 09:57, davey_83 said: Fact is no Japanese sports cars out sell their European rivals, Nissan Toyota are not sports car manufacturers like Porsche and don't need to rely solely on sport car sales. It's no secret that Porsche rely heavily on Cayenne sales to prop up the rest of the range. If you understand the above to be correct, then your concerns aren't nothing to worry over. I'm pretty sure I see more 911s and Caymans than Cayennes, Panameras and Macans. (Modern ones - not counting 996s, 987s etc.) Maybe regional though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msitpro Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 Just now, LRF4N said: And it looks $hite If the latest render is anything to go by then yes I agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_83 Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 1 hour ago, msitpro said: I'm pretty sure I see more 911s and Caymans than Cayennes, Panameras and Macans. (Modern ones - not counting 996s, 987s etc.) Maybe regional though You have to consider other markets, not just the UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 You have to consider other markets, not just the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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