Permitted Development & Boundary Wall Heights

[Stutopia]

Planning a little redevelopment of my back yard and I've a got question I can't find an easy answer on the google. Video to explain.

 

 

Any help or relevant experience is appreciated.

[ATTAK Z]

I would say the 2 metres is measured from ground level and that would be interpreted as in your third diagram but to confirm I would ask a planner. I think @Ebized is the forum planning expert.

[vroom811]

I belive it's option two.   Max fence height is 2m from street level.

[Ebized]

2 hours ago, ATTAK Z said:

I would say the 2 metres is measured from ground level and that would be interpreted as in your third diagram but to confirm I would ask a planner. I think @Ebized is the forum planning expert.

Over 8 years now since I was a "Town Planner" so had to do some research knowing the OP's issue has always been the subject of frequent debates for decades.  This link will give you a flavour on the subject (ignore the non-boundary discussions) but about a third of the way down is a helpful summary:

https://www.planningresource.co.uk/article/1209017/general-permitted-development-order-part---2-q---dcp-section-434

 

"As you say there is no guidance to be found in the GPDO but the normal rule observed in appeal decisions is that natural ground level is the appropriate datum. While in some cases natural ground level may not easily be established with any precision, particularly when the wall in question has already been erected on uneven ground, it is reasonable to try and estimate the position before the ground was disturbed. A number of cases are summarised in Development Control Practice at 4.3447."

 

You touched on a building next to the boundary and there is an anomaly in that on sloping ground the height restriction is taken from the highest ground level meaning that the normal 2.5metre limitation for house extensions/outbuildings can easily 'grow' to a more substantial height where the land slopes down.

 

Hope that helps, but you can apply to your Local Planning Authority for a formal determination as to whether you require planning permission or not.  Where there is a known neighbour concern, getting a certificate can give you confidence to proceed. Ask about the process at you local authority.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ebized]

31 minutes ago, vroom811 said:

I belive it's option two.   Max fence height is 2m from street level.

Not sure what you mean by "2m from street level" but where a boundary abuts a highway (footpath/verge etc)  the maximum height is 1 metre without planning permission.

[G1en]

Found this online, offers “some” explanation

 

https://www.lgo.org.uk/decisions/planning/other/16-004-729

[Stutopia]

16 hours ago, Ebized said:

Over 8 years now since I was a "Town Planner" so had to do some research knowing the OP's issue has always been the subject of frequent debates for decades.  This link will give you a flavour on the subject (ignore the non-boundary discussions) but about a third of the way down is a helpful summary:

https://www.planningresource.co.uk/article/1209017/general-permitted-development-order-part---2-q---dcp-section-434

 

"As you say there is no guidance to be found in the GPDO but the normal rule observed in appeal decisions is that natural ground level is the appropriate datum. While in some cases natural ground level may not easily be established with any precision, particularly when the wall in question has already been erected on uneven ground, it is reasonable to try and estimate the position before the ground was disturbed. A number of cases are summarised in Development Control Practice at 4.3447."

 

You touched on a building next to the boundary and there is an anomaly in that on sloping ground the height restriction is taken from the highest ground level meaning that the normal 2.5metre limitation for house extensions/outbuildings can easily 'grow' to a more substantial height where the land slopes down.

 

Hope that helps, but you can apply to your Local Planning Authority for a formal determination as to whether you require planning permission or not.  Where there is a known neighbour concern, getting a certificate can give you confidence to proceed. Ask about the process at you local authority.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers Colin, I read the link and also the one from Glen too (thanks also). Seems like it's just a thing that is really not that well defined, I have interpreted this

 

There is no prescribed method for measuring the height of walls where the land is uneven. The general practice is to measure this from the adjacent natural ground level.

 

to mean that Option 1 - the blue wall - is the correct approach (I intend to photograph the lot extensively, in case of any dispute).

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, having got going on the detail in the links you guys supplied, I noted this lot further down.

 

The definition at paragraph 3, article 1 of the General Permitted Development Order 1995, which provides that measurement should be made from the highest adjacent ground level, applies only to buildings and plant and machinery and does not extend to walls and fences. There is no prescribed method for measuring the height of walls where the land is uneven. The general practice is to measure this from the adjacent natural ground level. This is normally taken from the median point between ground levels on the high side and the low side. Cases where this issue has been considered are examined in Development Control Practice 4.3447.

 

Now this reads to me like Option 2 - the pink wall - is actually viable (which is what I would prefer) as it is based on the 'highest adjacent ground level".

 

 

as it says this...

 

"applies only to buildings and plant and machinery and does not extend to walls and fences."

 

...which suggests otherwise. The wall in situ, is joined to the house at one end and the other end, is the existing outbuildings. So I think I could argue for the pink wall but it's more of technical argument than a common sense one.

 

How do you read it @Ebized you think Option 1 is the appropriate view, based on the guidance and examples laid out?

 

Also, you mention contacting the Local Planning Authority for a certificate, do you know, if I go down this route, are they likely to want to speak to the neighbour and/or view the wall from his side - I don't want to provoke him.

 

 

[rabbitstew]

Your blue wall above is correct. Its 2 metres from the ground level. You could do it slopping like in the blue or stepped. My neighbour went with the stepped approach which is what you normally would do with fence panels.

 

I am assuming the ground the other side is on the same slope from what you said above so it should be fine.

 

Boundry fences very often cause arguments as to where the boundry is. I was lucky that my neighbours either side have replaced my boundry fences this year at their own costs - even though technically one of them is mine. An erring on the side of caution they put the fence so it was on their land, which means ive actually gained a foot each side of garden! Result all round for me!

 

I found my local planning officer to be very friendly & helpful when I undertook my house & garage extensions the other year. I could just call him up and ask him stuff and he would advise accordingly.

[Ebized]

"How do you read it @Ebized you think Option 1 is the appropriate view, based on the guidance and examples laid out? "

 

Yes, I would say you are safe with option 1 for your new wall, providing you are satisfied the slope either side is "natural" as possible and has not been artificially raised.  As

 

"Also, you mention contacting the Local Planning Authority for a certificate, do you know, if I go down this route, are they likely to want to speak to the neighbour and/or view the wall from his side - I don't want to provoke him. "

 

See if you can have a chat with the planning officer with your proposals before considering a formal submission for a determination. I'm not sure if the 'rules' have changed from when I was working when there was no legal requirement for Local Planning Authorities to notify neighbours about 'Certificate' applications, although some would do so just to see if neighbours had other evidence. By getting a Certificate that rules in your favour the neighbour will have to lump it, without a Certificate then there is a risk of a challenge if you do the work without agreeing with him.