Br-ex-ilection 2019

[Umster]

1 hour ago, Maggz said:

 

You should probably read about the Friedman's Chicago school of economics, and their free market ideas. They've done some great work in Panama, Chile and a few other countries which were their playground. Privatised everything, including things like water (rivers, lakes, etc). 

 

Could also read up on Jeffrey Sachs and how he's gone 180. 

 

Free markets have a place but when investors are telling you to invest in critical public utilities because the ROI has stayed in the right place and the CEOs have been pocketing millions in bonuses after sending dirty water or no water to Wales, Yorkshire and/or London, it does make you think twice about capitalism and where it does work. 

[The G Man]

3 hours ago, coldel said:

Did you use the railways in the 80s? If so, what was your experience? I lived in Paris and used cross European and local trains.

 

...and let’s not forget part of the railway is currently nationalised, it’s the bit that fails more often than the trains.

I used the railways in the 80’s, never let me down.  I lived in Holland and Germany, I would still not consider bombing the f#ck out of infrastructure to enable a better service.

 

i work in the railways now, Maggz is right, safety takes 3rd place, I could go way in depth on this, but,  to the everyday user, they don’t really care.  Network rail are a public body, that’s trying to be run on a private, profit making basis, not as a national, critical infrastructure basis.

 

The water infrastructure in Scotland is still in public hands and is thriving, public owned infrastructure can and always has supported private investment, unless it’s the Blairite, PPF initiative, that left me, you and everyone else in debt, to the same extent as the global crash.

 

Can I just implore, any right thinking citizen, not to vote for the profit without public accountability that the Tories and particularly Johnson and his cronies are promoting.

[Maggz]

1 hour ago, The G Man said:

I used the railways in the 80’s, never let me down.  I lived in Holland and Germany, I would still not consider bombing the f#ck out of infrastructure to enable a better service.

 

i work in the railways now, Maggz is right, safety takes 3rd place, I could go way in depth on this, but,  to the everyday user, they don’t really care.  Network rail are a public body, that’s trying to be run on a private, profit making basis, not as a national, critical infrastructure basis.

 

The water infrastructure in Scotland is still in public hands and is thriving, public owned infrastructure can and always has supported private investment, unless it’s the Blairite, PPF initiative, that left me, you and everyone else in debt, to the same extent as the global crash.

 

Can I just implore, any right thinking citizen, not to vote for the profit without public accountability that the Tories and particularly Johnson and his cronies are promoting.

Finally some sense in this thread

[Ekona]

It’s the same old arguments again, isn’t it? Evil money grabbing Tories trying to line their pockets and their mates’ pockets vs stupid magic money tree Labour who will bankrupt the lot of us again and put us back to the stone ages. 
 

Here’s the truth: Neither are correct.
 

Vote Tory and you’ll end up with a very quick (possibly Hard) Brexit, whatever your views on that, and promises to spend more on the NHS and police that won’t really make a difference as they both need 100x more than is being offered. The whole selling the NHS to the US is never going to happen as it’s a complete vote-loser by the millions, no different to legalising cannabis for example. 

 

Vote Labour and you’ll end up with Brexit being delayed for at least a year most likely, and with another angry referendum to take place (again, not saying that’s a bad thing). You’ll get promises to fix the NHS and policing that won’t happen as they both need bucket loads more than is available. You’ll get other promises to nationalise things or give free internets to everyone that won’t happen in the next term as Brexit will be the priority and there’s not enough money to do it all. 
 

 

Neither party will wreck the country, neither will magically fix everything. There’s not enough time or money to do any of what is being promised, not with Brexit in the way. I hate to say it, but until we get that sorted this country cannot move on, so ignore everything else and simply vote for which way you want that to go. Either Labour for the opportunity to reverse the decision and stay, or Tory to get it over and done with. Both have their merits, btw. 

[docwra]

Cant accept that Dan. The Tories are outright lying on a daily basis at the moment, who knows what they will do if they win a majority but its not going to be in the interests of most of the population - the way parliament voted against a hard brexit but they keep bringing it back, or they were happy to mislead everyone for a prorogue or even that Boris is in contempt kind of supports the fact they genuinely dont care about whats right or the actual truth. 
They arent making any real commitment to mental health or social welfare which are both huge issues and the way that Boris, Hancock, Cleverly and Rees-Mogg  fail to answer questions, appear for PMQ's or debates or actually tell the truth on anything is setting us up for 4 years of them doing what they want, if we are out of the EU as well theres no-one to stop them. "They arent going to sell off the NHS" isnt true, the working group paper that Corbyn was waving around earlier in the week lays out what we would need to do for a UK/US trade deal. 

Ive voted Tory all my life, I dont like Corbyn at all and I can see its obvious that they cant implement all of the policies they want to ......... but they arent lying and misrepresenting to anything like the level of the Tories, and you cant be confident about the future of anything from Brexit to the NHS if the people in power are liars that dont have any respect for the electorate.  

 

[Ekona]

That paper was an early discussion outlining what each side wanted, and it’s no surprise that the US want full access. As with everything there will be a compromise, and if the Tories allowed that then they’d be unelectable for years so it would never happen. That much is obvious, much like the Labour proposal to give F2P to every home in the country: something that’s completely impossible to actually happen. 
 

Labour may not be lying, but they’re certainly misleading. Promising the world and not being able to deliver in the slightest isn’t great either. 
 

Tbh all I want is Brexit done and dusted now, nothing else really concerns me as it’s all too messed up to be sorted until Brexit is finished. Get that done, spend four years figuring out the fallout, then the next government in knows where they stand and that will be the really important election. 

[Umster]

1 minute ago, Ekona said:

That paper was an early discussion outlining what each side wanted, and it’s no surprise that the US want full access. As with everything there will be a compromise, and if the Tories allowed that then they’d be unelectable for years so it would never happen. 

Trump and Boris deciding on a trade deal post Brexit. I'm not sure how much of a compromise we will see there in the grand context of these characters, their goals and the manner in which they conduct themselves. 

 

Maybe that's what was meant on his NHS battle bus all those years ago. 

[coldel]

12 hours ago, Maggz said:

Finally some sense in this thread

No. Simply someone that agrees with your point of view.
 

So I take it you never had to put up with the trash that was the rail system in the south east pre-privatisation. Ok glad that’s clarified. Including all the fatal accidents that happened whilst nationalised as well.

Edited November 30, 2019 by coldel

[docwra]

2 hours ago, Ekona said:

The whole selling the NHS to the US is never going to happen as it’s a complete vote-loser by the millions, no different to legalising cannabis for example. 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/21/private-firms-nhs-budget-matt-hancock-promise

 

The last part of the paper was less than a year old as well. Tell yourself what you want but its happening already, it will just be legitimised if they get back in. 

And Im really starting worry on the level of whataboutism Im seeing in defence of Boris - impossible free wifi is hardly the same gravity as selling off the NHS, I had another mate point out that Corbyn has promised an "impossible"* 2Bn trees as a counter argument to the Torys doctoring videos and changing website names, again, slightly different in its impact. 

* Its actually easily achievable. 

[Adrian@TORQEN]

2 hours ago, Ekona said:

or Tory to get it over and done with

How are they going to get Brexit done and dusted by January 31st? It will take 5-7-10 years to negotiate the future relationship (THE DEAL) with EU and whichever way you look at it we will get a worse deal than staying in. It's just another Boris soundbite, "no more dither and delay, we have an oven ready Brexit deal and we will get Brexit done by 29th of March, October the 31st, January 31st" and so on.

 

Labour's solutions seems the best, negotiate the best possible deal, staying in the customs union and keep free movement etc, while leaving the EU. Put that deal against a remain option to the people and have a referendum on far more information than the one in 2016, which was based on lies, to put it simply. 

 

By now we all know a "clean Brexit" will be a disaster for our economy and society, that's not an option. With Tories back in no10, we're still risking a No Deal scenario. 

[Adrian@TORQEN]

On 28/11/2019 at 17:48, coldel said:

Even if you take some serious character flaws out, the fact he belives 1970s Britain is the model for a modern society in the 21st century is enough to make you shudder!

It doesn't make me shudder, but Mogg, Gove, Patel, Johnson, Raab and all their cronies do make me shudder. 

What are the top 5 serious character flaws you spotted in Corbyn? Genuinely curious to see what am I missing, coming from outside the British society / politics as I said. 

 

As for the proposals Labours are making in their manifesto, I can't see anything that screams let's go back to 1970s rather than let's cary on modernising the society: eg better founded NHS, free broadband so business can thrive, people can access services required etc, then the climate emergency measure and so on. To me that sounds modern society. 

 

And what's so 1970s to nationalise the railway? Seems to be working perfectly fine in Germany, to give just one example:

 

https://www.citymetric.com/transport/are-german-trains-really-better-british-ones-rail-nationalisation-deutsche-bahn-3972

 

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/uk-railways-are-already-almost-entirely-nationalised-by-foreign-countries/25/11/

 

[Adrian@TORQEN]

On 29/11/2019 at 07:23, Ekona said:

Because if they didn’t make cuts we’d have been utterly screwed, way more than what we are. Don’t forget I work in an industry directly affected by those cuts now, and would directly benefit from the magic money tree promises that Labour are offering. 
 

Maybe they would only promise to put us back to nearly where we were officer-wise, but that’s surely a good thing regardless of historical staffing levels? 

I'm not sure we would have been more screwed than we are now due to austerity. 

 

Here are some things to consider:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/21/uk-economy-100bn-smaller-because-of-austerity-thinktank

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/15/child-poverty-above-50-per-cent-in-10-uk-constituencies

 

https://fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk-guide-facts-and-figures/

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/datasets/crimeinenglandandwalesappendixtables

 

[Maggz]

1 hour ago, coldel said:

No. Simply someone that agrees with your point of view.
 

So I take it you never had to put up with the trash that was the rail system in the south east pre-privatisation. Ok glad that’s clarified. Including all the fatal accidents that happened whilst nationalised as well.

Your problem is that you think your perception of the railways is the same as the reality. While you can be happy to believe that, your opinions don't make reality different. Reality is what it is. 

I'll post this here in hopes you'll actually read it, but I'm already sceptical you even want to know what actually happened and is happening with UK railways as you'll have to do something incredibly hard...change your mind. 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0155998214000416

 

In case you don't...public funding in the 2000s (after privatisation) is higher than it was before privatisation, tickets are more expensive making train travel less accessible than before, and we still have companies making a profit.  Also how can it be cheaper to fly from London to Manchester and back, than taking a train? 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Maggz

[coldel]

And you are stuck in a blinkered mindset that we are only talking about railways. Corbyn wants to nationalise everything at any cost. If you are happy with repeating failed social experiments like this that’s your prerogative.
 

To reconfirm, you did not have to tolerate nationalised services In the UK in reality, that’s correct yes? Because you won’t seem to admit to this.
 

Your problem is you you don’t even understand why some things cost more than others which exist in two separate industries, If you struggle with that then I would advise you go read some more books on the economics of industry.

 

...and that you seem equally unwilling to listen.

 

... and yes can’t wait for 27 days of strikes to start on Monday. Lovely.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by coldel

[Ekona]

Tbh I’m against anyone and anything that puts more power into the hands of the unions, but that’s a personal principle. And I’m a member of a union that carried out an unofficial strike last year, one that I disagreed with so crossed the picket line and carried on working. 
 

More nationalisation can only lead to more of this, in my eyes and history suggests the same. I’m happy to be proved wrong, but I have my doubts. 
 

 

Re the whole NHS thing, tbh I’m not that fussed what happens really. I’d be happy to see the whole thing fail just so we can start it again from the ground up, but I accept that’s equally unlikely. Honest, I cannot see for one second the US big pharma being given the access they want as it’s not politically acceptable on this side of the pond, but I do accept that it’s possible. Tbh it’s possible regardless of who’s in power!

[ATTAK Z]

For me, life has been so much better since the power of the unions was curbed in the Thatcher era. I was reminded of what it used to be like when I was out for a meal yesterday with my wife. I went to a local (four star) hotel and sat in the bar area waiting to order a drink and some food. There were about 6 oldish men sitting round a table discussing tactics in loud local accents. I thought I'd listen to what they were saying (cos I didn't have much else to do) to find out what they were up to. They were talking about some company about to put ten million on the table. I assumed it was about British Steel but don't know that for sure. It took me back to the days when the unions were powerful and doing everything in their power to prevent good companies from thriving. I hope to never see that again in my lifetime. I left the hotel and went to a local pub for the meal.

[Maggz]

50 minutes ago, ATTAK Z said:

For me, life has been so much better since the power of the unions was curbed in the Thatcher era. I was reminded of what it used to be like when I was out for a meal yesterday with my wife. I went to a local (four star) hotel and sat in the bar area waiting to order a drink and some food. There were about 6 oldish men sitting round a table discussing tactics in loud local accents. I thought I'd listen to what they were saying (cos I didn't have much else to do) to find out what they were up to. They were talking about some company about to put ten million on the table. I assumed it was about British Steel but don't know that for sure. It took me back to the days when the unions were powerful and doing everything in their power to prevent good companies from thriving. I hope to never see that again in my lifetime. I left the hotel and went to a local pub for the meal.

I think you should have probably focus on your missus and not try and create a whole conspiracy theory from what you thought a few half heard words meant across another table lol. 

[Adrian@TORQEN]

On 30/11/2019 at 08:01, Ekona said:

The whole selling the NHS to the US is never going to happen

But is already happening, Dan:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/29/private-firms-handed-15bn-in-nhs-contracts-over-past-five-years

[Ekona]

Okay, but so what? None of those are American owned (that I’m aware of), and if it provides a better service then I’m all for it. I personally don’t buy into the whole thing that every part of the NHS should always stay nationalised, if we get better VFM and services then privatise away. 
 

As I’ve said, I’m okay with the NHS being dismantled completely so it can start again from the ground up, and actually be a decent service again. 

[Maggz]

32 minutes ago, Ekona said:

Okay, but so what? None of those are American owned (that I’m aware of), and if it provides a better service then I’m all for it. I personally don’t buy into the whole thing that every part of the NHS should always stay nationalised, if we get better VFM and services then privatise away. 
 

As I’ve said, I’m okay with the NHS being dismantled completely so it can start again from the ground up, and actually be a decent service again. 

Yup, just like the US one is. Can't wait it works as well as there.

[Ekona]

In some ways, it’s a hell of a lot better. In some ways, it’s much worse. All about the insurance. 
 

That said, I maintain that it simply would never happen here so it’s a non-starter in terms of an argument. 

[Maggz]

19 minutes ago, Ekona said:

In some ways, it’s a hell of a lot better. In some ways, it’s much worse. All about the insurance. 
 

That said, I maintain that it simply would never happen here so it’s a non-starter in terms of an argument. 

Why would it not happen here? 

[Ekona]

Because it’s not electable. In the eyes of the public, rightly or wrongly, the NHS is seen as untouchable. Any government that sold it out completely to US pharma would be unelectable for years. 
 

The public moan that the NHS is sh*t, but they just want more and more money pumped into it without actually sorting out why it doesn’t work for many people sadly. 

[docwra]

18 hours ago, Ekona said:

In some ways, it’s a hell of a lot better. In some ways, it’s much worse. All about the insurance. 
 

That said, I maintain that it simply would never happen here so it’s a non-starter in terms of an argument. 

Who are you and what have you done with the real Dan?

Any system where people dont seek treatment because they know they cant afford it is worse than what we have at the moment, never mind the enormous profits being made off the back of sick people. 

[Adrian@TORQEN]

Just now, docwra said:

Who are you and what have you done with the real Dan?

+1