Br-ex-ilection 2019

[Maggz]

On 01/12/2019 at 17:28, Ekona said:

Because it’s not electable. In the eyes of the public, rightly or wrongly, the NHS is seen as untouchable. Any government that sold it out completely to US pharma would be unelectable for years. 
 

The public moan that the NHS is sh*t, but they just want more and more money pumped into it without actually sorting out why it doesn’t work for many people sadly. 

I'm sure you know this already, but I'll play the game...

 

No public service in modern days gets sold like a pair of sneakers...with a fixed price, and on a specific date when it goes from public to private.

 

How I see this happening is closer to taking a 20K piece puzzle which is assembled, and you take 1 piece and privatise it. Then another, and another, and before you know it you've removed a dozen, and as the companies running them are interested in profits, and not in the best possible service, things tend to degrade.

As service degrades and people complain, company says they can't make it better with the low fees they're charging and huge costs  they have, and that prices will go up to ensure a better service. And so the govt. helps with some public funding so the people wouldn't need to pay everything (doh, it's still a public service) and to reduce a bit of outrage.

So it's not fully privatised, but it is in the process.

Govt. is spending billions trying to keep it somewhat good and accessible to all, while having more and more sections private. So you end up with private hospitals, private ambulances, outsourced nurses, doctors, and probably full treatments as well, as it's easier to pay someone to do your job, than sort out  and reorganise your own public service.

As the costs of outsourcing increases, all this time the govt. is convincing people that they just can't afford a public NHS, that it's spending billions maintaining it, and that costs are going up year after year, and it's still failing, and after it runs out of foreigners and immigration to blame, it comes up with a perfect solution to all the problems - insurance, which you can get as an extra to whatever is in place at that moment. It's a fair (cough) one as well...The more you pay, the better and more luxurious the service you get. Insurance companies have deals with private clinics. All the money and treatment of 'better off' people goes to private insurance companies and private clinics, making the NHS only a service for the poor.... By this time 1/3 of the NHS is private, outsourced, and ran still with @*!# loads of public money, but only the poor ones use it. 

Because the govt. obviously can't afford the NHS which performs worse and private sections work gloriously (for those that can afford it), the media campaign starts which convinces people the public NHS is money burned, and that with some proper regulation, private healthcare with subsidized insurance for the poorest will be loads better.

Makes sense, right? We know the govt. pisses millions on daily basis on inefficiencies and what not, and private businesses don't....so it makes sense. 

Right?

 

This can happen within a single full government term. Now someone please tell me how many Brits will see, or protest, or fight for each individual puzzle being privatised?

 

Also if you're well off (I am), or not barely making ends meet, this may sound like a great idea. I'll pay a bit more (I can afford it) and I'll get a lot better service. The problem is, I don't want people who can't afford to pay a bit more, to be shafted and forgotten, as all poorer people always are in a privatised public service...no money, no service or no money no product (medicine). 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Maggz
Grammar

[Maggz]

@Ekona and @coldel is this one of you? 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Maggz

[coldel]

I would find that funny actually like most fictitious comedy, if it wasn't for the real chance that some gullables would actually believe the content. Some people are just so easily led I guess.

[The G Man]

What’s fictitious in that video?   

[Maggz]

6 minutes ago, The G Man said:

What’s fictitious in that video?   

It doesn't fit his capitalist and free market (cough tory) narrative. Also, I assume as it was posted by a politician he doesn't like, he just decided it's not true. 

[coldel]

Who said I was Tory? Like many other posts, your arguments start off with incorrect assumptions which makes what follows just pointless. if you want to blindly believe every aspect of a video posted on a political site then knock yourself out. However, I am genuinely concerned that you struggle so much with someone having a differing opinion to yourself and resorting to belittlement/crap videos or the like, it really does make you look rather petty and takes a lot away from the strength of your side of the debate. Someone doesn't agree with you, get over it.

 

I get you don't like my side of the debate. I am sure there are some positives to nationalising everything, but they do not in my opinion (and given I have experienced both here in the UK - which again lets mention you haven't) outweigh the negatives. So there we are.

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by coldel

[Maggz]

36 minutes ago, coldel said:

Who said I was Tory? 

 

No one actually. However it's definitely what they stand for and the narrative they're pushing. I couldn't say who you'll vote for and honestly I don't care. I'm more talking about the similarities between your statements and their rhetoric. 

 

36 minutes ago, coldel said:

However, I am genuinely concerned that you struggle so much with someone having a differing opinion to yourself and resorting to belittlement,

Never belittle, I try to educate. The difference is massive.

 

36 minutes ago, coldel said:

I get you don't like my side of the debate. I am sure there are some positives to nationalising everything

I also never said everything. No need to twist my words when everything is written, just go back and read my posts again.

 

Every country and government has the obligation to ensure basic public services are available to all its citizens, and that includes things like public transport, energy, water, healthcare, etc. Without any of those services, individual people would not have a normal life, or even worse, would suffer horrifically on daily basis. 

My problem is that some people don't understand, that calling for privatisation instead of reorganization and optimization means, that the core services become expensive due to profits which private organisations chase, and with that, poor people lose them all together as they can't afford them.

It's one of the most unpatriotic thing anyone can do. 

For a proud country like the UK, I'm shocked how little some people care about their fellow countrymen. It's honestly making me sad on daily basis. 

Nothing to do with Corbyn, Labour, socialism or Boris...but only with the expectation that all people deserve basic and free or at least cheap public services, as otherwise they will be left behind and will not have a half decent life. 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Maggz

[coldel]

9 minutes ago, Maggz said:

 

Never belittle, I try to educate. The difference is massive.

 

...and there you go, honestly, you need to go back, read it, and if you cannot see it, seek professional help.  Although you might not find the right people who will just agree with you and massage that over inflated and confused ego. 

[Maggz]

Just now, coldel said:

...and there you go, honestly, you need to go back, read it, and if you cannot see it, seek professional help.  Although you might not find the right people who will just agree with you and massage that over inflated and confused ego. 

Attack is the best form of defence when your arguments run dry 

[coldel]

7 minutes ago, Maggz said:

Attack is the best form of defence when your arguments run dry 

Or when you realise you are dealing with someone who literally has no intention of considering anything anyone says that doesn't comply with your point of view, so making debate moot. You leap to so many incorrect personal assumptions that it has kind of made the point of debate tiresome and I don't have the energy to keep pointing them out. 

 

You are not right, neither am I, we both simply have a point of view. However You think the point of the debate is to be right and to convince me I am wrong whilst I am simply citing my reasons for not voting for Corbyn. You cannot discern the difference. Therefore I have ceased bothering to debate it with you. This is clearly illustrated in your 'haha I have won' comment above. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by coldel

[Maggz]

18 minutes ago, coldel said:

Or when you realise you are dealing with someone who literally has no intention of considering anything anyone says that doesn't comply with your point of view, so making debate moot. You leap to so many incorrect personal assumptions that it has kind of made the point of debate tiresome and I don't have the energy to keep pointing them out. 

 

You are not right, neither am I, we both simply have a point of view. However You think the point of the debate is to be right and to convince me I am wrong whilst I am simply citing my reasons for not voting for Corbyn. You cannot discern the difference. Therefore I have ceased bothering to debate it with you. This is clearly illustrated in your 'haha I have won' comment above. 

Are you sure you're talking with the right person? The above makes no sense to me.

 

Privatisation of public services being bad for poor people is fact with quite a few really well documented examples. Those are not opinions, mine or yours, those are facts. And you saying no one is right, let's please stop talking about it now, is just silly and childish. These are serious topics impacting every single person living here.

 

Where have I mentioned Corbyn or why do you think I'm trying to convince you who to vote for? 

 

I also don't need you to agree with me, or to believe me...but it would be great if you read a few articles, studies and economic impacts on privatisation of public services which were not made by a political party.

 

Also, you thinking that your perception of how good your personal train line is, actually equals facts on why privatisation is good or bad, is concerning if not scary. But I guess you were alive in the 80s which makes you a privatisation SME 

[coldel]

This came from a question around why wouldn't I vote for Corbyn, I stated my reasons. You responded by sarcastically saying that my point of view was in effect a joke. Since then you have posted all sorts of personal assumptions along with a political propaganda video  Really, the only fact here that is absolutely correct is that you do not realise you have just demonstrated what I have said on my previous post about you, is fact. Which is why I am not going to continue any sort of political or economic debate with you.

Edited December 3, 2019 by coldel

[The G Man]

^^ your opinion, not a fact IMO   Don’t take yer baw hame as a conclusion 

 

Anyhoo's, we’re getting a new gang of bandits tae rob the lucrative WCML, First/Avanti, to be known as Avanti, which the MD of First told us was Italian for ‘forward’, he’s such a good egg that one 

 

All the Brexit supporting parties and voters must be delighted at all this European ownership of rail franchises, Italian, French, Dutch and German and all mostly state run 

 

 

[Adrian@TORQEN]

On the NHS sale:

 

"Start with the shocking privatisation in 2013 of the NHS blood plasma supplier, on which thousands of patients depend. To protect the quality of the blood product, David Owen, as health secretary in 1975, took blood plasma collection into public ownership as Plasma Resources UK. But Jeremy Hunt, as health secretary, sold that off for £200m to a US private equity firm, Bain Capital, while Britain kept a 20% stake. Co-founded by Mitt Romney in 1984, Bain has over the years acquired such well known health products as Burger King, Dunkin Donuts, Dominos Pizza and much else. Protesters, David Owen among them, warned that the company had a predatory reputation for asset stripping, but Bain promised it would develop the company into a “life sciences champion” in Hertfordshire. Instead, it sold it on to a Chinese company in 2016 for £820m. Was there any protest from our government, losing its last remnant of control? Not a word. Instead, an irony, the US government is expressing concern at China taking over a vital US-owned health asset."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/25/boris-johnson-conservatives-nhs-funding

 

Piece by piece, until the last piece. 

[Ekona]

Is there anything wrong with our blood supplier then? I hadn’t heard anything. 

[Stutopia]

1 hour ago, Ekona said:

Is there anything wrong with our blood supplier then? I hadn’t heard anything. 

Had you heard there was anything wrong with it, before it was sold?

[Ekona]

Fair point. Circular argument, I guess.  

[Ekona]

Didn’t even know it had been sold tbh!

[Umster]

OK, a question to turn the conversation in a different direction. 

 

Has the divide between the North and South grown more? Is this in any way related to SNP making gains in recent times? Is it related to how the Tories "paid" for DUP support? Has Brexit changed the dynamic? 

[Maggz]

3 hours ago, Ekona said:

Didn’t even know it had been sold tbh!

I was sure you said it selling off NHS wouldn't happen, because it's "unelectable" and people wouldn't stand for it...

 

I guess now you see how that can happen, by selling off small pieces, bit by bit, and hoping no one notices, a bit like you didn't notice/know

[docwra]

15 hours ago, Ekona said:

Is there anything wrong with our blood supplier then? I hadn’t heard anything. 

Other than the fact that we used to set the price and oversee the supply and now we dont, nothing at all.  

Edited December 4, 2019 by docwra

[Adrian@TORQEN]

5 hours ago, Ekona said:

Didn’t even know it had been sold tbh!

Does that mean you're going to reconsider your opinion / your vote, now that you can see facts / implications? 

[Stutopia]

7 hours ago, Ekona said:

Fair point. Circular argument, I guess.  

Yeah, me neither. Apparently it’s not as important as 5G infrastructure!

[Ekona]

8 hours ago, Adrian@TORQEN said:

Does that mean you're going to reconsider your opinion / your vote, now that you can see facts / implications? 

Nope, because it’s made zero difference to me or anyone else and someone has made a few quid out of it. Win/win really. 
 

If I don’t notice a change, then I really don’t care either way. Same with if stuff gets nationalised really, if it happens and everything stays the same then meh. It’s just that history tends to show that doesn’t work, hence my reluctance to endorse it. 

[Ekona]

As before though, this election is really about Brexit, nothing else. Don’t kid yourselves that anything else will change at all in the next 5 years otherwise, regardless of who wins.