Ekona Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 I hope no one on here ever has kids that fall into the wrong crowd and need help. I get the anger, I really do, and I’m not saying for one second come home all is forgiven as she clearly wants more than just a cuddle from mum. At the same time she was just a child when all this happened, and really that’s exactly what she is still. There would be no harm in having a conversation with her and seeing what’s what. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nissanman312 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Ekona said: I hope no one on here ever has kids that fall into the wrong crowd and need help. I get the anger, I really do, and I’m not saying for one second come home all is forgiven as she clearly wants more than just a cuddle from mum. At the same time she was just a child when all this happened, and really that’s exactly what she is still. There would be no harm in having a conversation with her and seeing what’s what. I do get your point. However feel it may change when she drives over one of your family members. Or in time helps some other vunrable kid do the same She could of course do all of this from behind a computer screen elsewhere but I'd rather she wasn't allowed back to do it here Edited February 22, 2019 by nissanman312 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 52 minutes ago, Ekona said: I hope no one on here ever has kids that fall into the wrong crowd and need help. she was just a child when all this happened I hope no one here has kids that are killed when a terrorist they have supported being allowed to return detonates themselves in their vicinity, the wrong crowd and fleeing the country to support a brutal terrorist regime are worlds apart. Sorry the child argument is just invalid or do you think the Bulger killers as minors and mentioned elsewhere should have walked free? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZMANALEX Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Ekona said: At the same time she was just a child when all this happened, and really that’s exactly what she is still. A child ?????? There are no children at the age of circa 15 left in the UK I am afraid, those days are unfortunately long gone. She was 15 years old when she defected and then went on to marry a Syrian ISIS fighter at the age of 16 and have his kids. IMHO she is a huge threat to the security of the UK and beyond, why take the chance. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZMANALEX Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Following on from the age related debate. A murder/rape trial has just concluded in Glasow and the accused (15 years old at time of offence) was found guilty and will probably spend the rest of his life in jail. His sentence will not take into consideration that he is/was a minor. Read here: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/evil-alesha-macphail-murderer-serial-14034809 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Given my current job, I do believe that the vast majority of people are capable of rehabilitation. 15 is a child, some may be more mature than others, but they’re just kids. Anyone could have a car accident and kill someone, so I’m not going down that argument. Doesn’t make them terrible people. Don’t get me wrong, if she is completely unrepentant and still holds true to the Daesh principles then of course she should not be allowed back, but if there’s a chance that we can rehabilitate someone who was corrupted at a young age then should we not try and do that? With regards to the Bulger killers, one has remained free from crime and as far as we know is living a normal life. The other is still behind bars, as he clearly is a danger to children. This kinda proves both arguments really, that some can be rehabilitated and some can’t. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Muxlow Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Dan from what I have heard she is unrepentant in every way. Unless what she has said has been edited to make her out to be this way? she wants everyone to feel sorry for her? She knew exactly what she was going over there to do! As has been said above she probably poses a threat to us here. Why does she want to come home now for anyways? oh yes free benefits and childcare probably..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponsonby Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, Ekona said: With regards to the Bulger killers, one has remained free from crime and as far as we know is living a normal life. The other is still behind bars, as he clearly is a danger to children. This kinda proves both arguments really, that some can be rehabilitated and some can’t. Actually Venables has been out twice and locked up again for child porn and drug offences. Upon each of his releases, after extensive rehabilitation behind bars, his identity was changed and he could easily have harmed another child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, Ekona said: This kinda proves both arguments really, that some can be rehabilitated and some can’t. Why would you take the risk? You dont barrel down the roads at 100 mph plus because you know the penalties, implications, danger and loss of life it may cause and you are keen to jump on any thread where someone condones speeding, yet your prepared to risk the possible rehabilitation of a known terrorist, jeez dude, there is no logic that can explain that, your moral compass is all over the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Let's get some accurate terrorism facts and figures in the equation, I'd say. Ben Wallace, the security minister, said around 40 people “have been successfully prosecuted so far – either because of direct action they have carried out in Syria or, subsequent to coming back, linked to that foreign fighting”. But more than 400 people “of national security concern” are believed to have returned from conflicts in Syria and Iraq ... Of more than 900 people who travelled to Syria and Iraq from the UK, he said at least 20 per cent are believed to have been killed. Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/shamima-begum-isis-return-uk-syria-jihadis-terror-threat-prosecute-nationality-a8790991.html How many of these muppets have actually committed a terrorism act in UK after returning? As far as I can see 0 (zero). "Mr Rowley said: "Islamist and right-wing extremism is reaching into our communities through sophisticated propaganda and subversive strategies creating and exploiting vulnerabilities that can ultimately lead to acts of violence and terrorism. "Ten conspiracies of an Islamist nature were stopped since the Westminster attack. "And I can tell you today that over the same period police have been able to prevent a further four extreme, right-wing inspired plots in the UK." He said it was "important we make these figures public in order to illustrate the growth of right-wing extremism". Referring to the banned group National Action, he said: "For the first time we have a home-grown proscribed white supremacist, neo-Nazi terror group, which seeks to plan attacks and build international networks."" There are currently more than 600 live investigations and more than 3,000 people of interest at any one time. While they have not been involved directly in terrorism, he singled out Tommy Robinson, who founded the English Defence League (EDL), and Jayda Fransen, the deputy leader of Britain First, as voices from the far right who stir up tensions. Mr Rowley told the BBC: "In the noise and focus on the global threat, and what we've wrestled with with Daesh [the Islamic State group], I don't think the change and growth in extreme right-wing terrorist threat has been explained or described well enough - and that's one of the things I wanted to do." Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43200966 Home grown terrorism seems to be a lot more concerning now days than anyone returning from Syria. Stripping her from citizenship (under which laws? need to read more about this) is supposed to be the punishment? Has she actually killed anyone, what did she actually do other than "sympathise" with DAESH? And if she did, she should have access to a fair trial like any other human. If found guilty, prison should be the punishment as dictated by the law. I agree with Dan on her being only a child when she was 15 and been groomed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZMANALEX Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, Adrian@TORQEN said: I agree with Dan on her being only a child when she was 15 and been groomed. This is 2019, please join us from the dark ages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 31 minutes ago, Jetpilot said: Why would you take the risk? You dont barrel down the roads at 100 mph plus because you know the penalties, implications, danger and loss of life it may cause and you are keen to jump on any thread where someone condones speeding, yet your prepared to risk the possible rehabilitation of a known terrorist, jeez dude, there is no logic that can explain that, your moral compass is all over the shop. So if it’s just a matter of risk, why do we not lock up for life anyone committed of any crime? Or deport anyone who commits any crime? If she has been an adult when she’d gone to Syria then no, I don’t think there should be any conversation about her coming back. The fact she was a child and thus had been radicalised at a young age means I believe there should be conversations and interviews at the very least, not a blanket no. Like I said, if she is still a risk and there’s no likelihood of rehabilitation then leave her there, but if we can help her we should. As for speeding, my issue is with people doing it in silly places where the cameras and police sit thus contributing to more enforcement. That’s why I have a go at them: I really don’t care if they do it on the fun roads where no-one gets caught 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 2 sides for me here, the legal and the moral. Morally you can either say she was mislead and can be rehabilitated or as she is so unrepentant she will obviously be a threat to the UK if she returns, I do wonder if someone is putting words in her mouth though. The legal side is undeniable though, the only reason we can rock around being world police is our legal integrity. Changing laws or making stuff up on the spot to suit is not what we do, if we did we would be no better than IS is. She isnt a Bangladeshi, we cant leave her stateless so she has to be allowed to come back and then prosecuted for being a member of terrorist organisation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggz Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) Interesting discussion. It's a shame more people don't talk about how she could have been brainwashed so much that she decided to leave her life behind and move to a war zone. Who brainwashed her, where, using what methods, and since she has left, how many others have suffered the same? At 15 no one is capable of making educated and well informed choices. We were all driven by hormones and emotions which I bet someone took advantage off. Bringing her back and finding out absolutely everything about her life and journey is the only way any lessons get learned. Having her kid grow up here offers a bigger chance he'll be normal than in Syria or anywhere like that. The govt should be making sure this doesn't happen again in the future, and not go for cheap political points of revoking her passport, alienating her and probably a few thousand other UK based Muslims. And they can't prevent it if they don't really know how and why that happened. Otherwise your neighborhood, friend, schoolmate could be next on the brainwashing list. Does anyone really want that? Edited February 22, 2019 by Maggz 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, Maggz said: At 15 no one is capable of making educated and well informed choices. Another one stuck in the dark ages, bloody hell, it's 2019! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GranTurismoEra Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) Almost a condescending insult to assume Bangladesh would take her in. Which in reality they wouldnt. Thats like saying shes not good enough to come into UK but Bangladesh can take her. We are more valuable and see ourselves higher than the bengali people. Funny enough their government has said in no uncertain terms she cannot go there. Also even if she was to apply for citizenship she'll probably be denied under the grounds of terrorism You can either allow her back in Britain under arrestand sentenced to prison Offer her deal in exchange for information, but she has to help rehabilitate others under close supervision on a 40 hour contract for the rest of her work life or something similar. Enforce it or send her to prison if she doesn't comply Leave her in Syria to deal with the consequences. Which legally UK has to answer to a governing body on why she isnt allowed back in and left stateless. On the flip side to fully understand this you need to go to the roots of how it all starts. What the causes are. Is it to do with what she watches on the news, sees on the internet, listening to radical teachers at the mosque. The mass destruction of muslim countries in the wars past? On a larger political scale what are the government doing regarding foreign policy. When people are calling into LBC, CNN etc and echoing the same "mind our business" message everytime their are talks of new wars. UK should be promoting a no more wars and meddling in foreign affairs message. A more inclusive culture for those already here. Inner cities should all be running anti radicalisation programs from primary school teaching positive british values. Not the pushing of agendas and left wing trickery. That might reduce radicalisation in the long run. It can still happen as UK historically has been directly involved in the destruction of Syria. Lebanon, Afghanistan and Iraq. A lot of that based on false intelligence and fake news. Speaking of remorse, I doubt she'll ever be remorseful after seeing harrowing pictures from the previous wars in the last 19 years....So everyone can keep waiting on an apology..... Edited February 22, 2019 by GranTurismoEra 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggz Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 3 hours ago, nissanman312 said: I do get your point. However feel it may change when she drives over one of your family members. Or in time helps some other vunrable kid do the same She could of course do all of this from behind a computer screen elsewhere but I'd rather she wasn't allowed back to do it here Syrians don't don't drive over Brits. Brits which are radicalised in Britain drive over Brits. So i think we should focus on preventing radicalisation and not border control or passports being revoked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 33 minutes ago, Ekona said: So if it’s just a matter of risk, why do we not lock up for life anyone committed of any crime? Or deport anyone who commits any crime? If she has been an adult when she’d gone to Syria then no, Like I said, if she is still a risk and there’s no likelihood of rehabilitation then leave her there, but if we can help her we should. As for speeding, my issue is with people doing it in silly places where the cameras and police sit thus contributing to more enforcement. That’s why I have a go at them: I really don’t care if they do it on the fun roads where no-one gets caught We do lock people up for "life" if the bill fits the crime and we have deported people Sorry, the child thing just doesnt wash, she knew what she was doing, she wasnt enough of a child to fund and find her way there with her mates, get married, chuck out a few kids, knowing all the time the risk to her life and her future, most of us know right and wrong even as a child and if she really genuinely didnt know what she was doing was wrong then she doesnt deserve any better than the life she choose. As per first post, lets make it clear, make it law, then there can be no confusion for the future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Plenty of 15 year olds make huge mistakes when they’re that age believing 100% they’re doing the right thing, gang culture immediately springs to mind with all the violent crime and murders that go with that. Give it ten years when they’ve actually grown up and come to realise just how stupid and naive they were back then, and they’re horrified with themselves. Could the same not possibly be true here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) The problem with that is, she’s isn’t horrified with herself... yet. Until she is, my personal opinion is that she shouldn’t be allowed back into the country. Yet. That doesn’t mean we can't send people to her to help her though. This kinda plays into the “she’s just a naive child” argument, but she’s (arguably) currently too stupid to even pretend to apologetic for her actions just yet. Edited February 23, 2019 by ilogikal1 Me English am good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nissanman312 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 15 minutes ago, Maggz said: Syrians don't don't drive over Brits. Brits which are radicalised in Britain drive over Brits. So i think we should focus on preventing radicalisation and not border control or passports being revoked Dose it matter where they are from if they have those ideologies they have them simple and she's not exactly going on like what she did was wrong...she just wants to come back because it's not what she thought it was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 16 minutes ago, GranTurismoEra said: Almost a condescending insult to assume Bangladesh would take her in. Which in reality they wouldnt. Thats like saying shes not good enough to come into UK but Bangladesh can take her. We are more valuable and see ourselves higher than the bengali people. Funny enough their government has said in no uncertain terms she cannot go there. Also even if she was to apply for citizenship she'll probably be denied under the grounds of terrorism As pointed out earlier, the LAW (according to the BBC not me) is she can claim citizenship up to the age of 21, nothing to do with being condescending and if they dont want her for grounds of terrorism why should we, talk about double standards. 2 minutes ago, Ekona said: Plenty of 15 year olds make huge mistakes when they’re that age believing 100% they’re doing the right thing, gang culture immediately springs to mind with all the violent crime and murders that go with that. Give it ten years when they’ve actually grown up and come to realise just how stupid and naive they were back then, and they’re horrified with themselves. Could the same not possibly be true here? Illokigal puts it well above, if she is defending the manchester bombings she still doesnt get it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggz Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, nissanman312 said: Dose it matter where they are from if they have those ideologies they have them simple and she's not exactly going on like what she did was wrong...she just wants to come back because it's not what she thought it was My point was that not letting her back, does not reduce the terrorist risk in the UK as most terror attacks in the last few years were carried out by homegrown Brits. Leaving her there, does in fact increase the terror risk as her son will be brought up in a very non democratic and extremist environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggz Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 21 minutes ago, Jetpilot said: We do lock people up for "life" if the bill fits the crime and we have deported people Sorry, the child thing just doesnt wash, she knew what she was doing, she wasnt enough of a child to fund and find her way there with her mates, get married, chuck out a few kids, knowing all the time the risk to her life and her future, most of us know right and wrong even as a child and if she really genuinely didnt know what she was doing was wrong then she doesnt deserve any better than the life she choose. As per first post, lets make it clear, make it law, then there can be no confusion for the future. It's clear that you've not had a conversation with a 15 year old yet. It's even clearer that you've never met or talked to a person who lived or has survived a war. So you're just thinking of how you would act in your current state and are projecting this to everyone as the only way people function. What's the word I'm looking for... oh yeah, ignorant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 41 minutes ago, ilogikal1 said: The problem with that is, she’s isn’t horrified with herself... yet. This. However, its also pretty stupid that we would let her back in as long as she pretends to be sorry ......... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.