Brexit again

[Andy_Muxlow]

Yes but all this stuff like it shouldn't have happened blah blah blah and stuff is irrelevant. The referendum has happened, counted and leave won. Now whether it was by a small or massive margin, its immaterial,  democracy is about the most votes isn't it? Whether we like it or not leave won end of! That should be respected. Its like saying the government in power won but heyho who cares who won. 

[coldel]

10 hours ago, Andy_Muxlow said:

Yes but all this stuff like it shouldn't have happened blah blah blah and stuff is irrelevant. The referendum has happened, counted and leave won. Now whether it was by a small or massive margin, its immaterial,  democracy is about the most votes isn't it? Whether we like it or not leave won end of! That should be respected. Its like saying the government in power won but heyho who cares who won. 

I think pretty much the very small mentions of it shouldn't have happened were aimed at the issue at hand, in that it was political points scoring, much as it is now. Politics is in a downward spiral right now and I would imagine public confidence and trust in politicians is at an all time low. What is frustrating is the lazy use of language to describe where we are, Leaving is not 'the will of the people' it was the will of the voters, as cited above its pretty clear that the demographic that didnt vote are by and large remainers, something leavers are pretty frightened of which is why they use language like 'will of the people' to make it sound like its anti-democratic otherwise. 

 

For me the worst thing about this vote is not leaving the EU, fine we are going I can handle that, the worst thing is the power being handed to racist bigots like Boris Johnson or Jacob Rees Mogg just to give the government what for. Under some sort of  illusion they are pro Britain when they are nothing but pro career and could not give two hoots about this country or the people in it, even if the economy collapses they have a lovely privileged background and bank account to see them through. 

[Stutopia]

That last bit sums it up nicely Col, this is a group that have literally never done a thing to improve the existence of working class people and are now dressing themselves up nicely as the 'friend of the little man' because it suits a careerist agenda. The fact the Mong has shifted his income source out of harm's way and isn't even ashamed by it, tells you the utter contempt with which he holds these people. Big Nige's super march would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic. People suckered in, then ditched as soon as the cameras go off, paying for the privilege of it all and then having to do all the work - remind you of anything?

[Andy_Muxlow]

This guys I don't doubt at all. It's been to much of a pocket lining exercise by most of the politicians. Too many people point scoring as it has been said, too many people using fear on both sides really imho. It's shameful that it has been drawn out like this really. The politicians should have all come together and sorted this out, instead of trying to undermine people to further their own agenda. It wouldn't surprise me if leaving gets cancelled all together in the near future, much to the remainders glee...

Edited March 25, 2019 by Andy_Muxlow

[coldel]

Much of the above was predicted by remainers, but were told to stop being so negative, to being so anti-Britain etc. 

 

Politicians will never come together and sort this out, because they have diverse ideologies, and god forbid the likes of Boris having a serious say on it. There are too many politicians on the take out of this. I think a deal will be struck, but it will crawl over the line.

Edited March 25, 2019 by coldel

[ilogikal1]

11 hours ago, Andy_Muxlow said:

Its like saying the government in power won but heyho who cares who won. 

 

Like we do every four years you mean?

 

 

 

[coldel]

28 minutes ago, ilogikal1 said:

 

Like we do every four years you mean?

 

 

 

To be quite frank, what did leavers expect? Remainers to just shrug their shoulders and just say well done and let it run its course? If Remain had won, would UKIP and Farage have disbanded and said 'well we gave it our best shot' or would they have been on every political platform banging on about the UK still finding a way to leave the EU - you would be fool to think not. The way I see it is:

 

1. There was a deep divide in the country about immigration and the EU, enough that people had sufficient numbers to vote leave

2. There was enough apathy in remainers that many didnt vote (the young vote) that are now bringing their voice to the debate (but all a bit too late)

3. There was a better machine in play for the leave campaign that was strong enough to convince the electorate that leaving would be easy

4. There is not enough coverage in the media of information sources that tell you the facts i.e. the cost per week of EU membership was easily shown to be false looking at publicly available treasury accounts yet the story ran for weeks

5. Politicians saw the opportunity to further their career, be it Boris or Gove or otherwise some have done better than others, their concerns were not about people less well off than themselves

6. The hard reality of a smaller economy negotiating with an experienced economic bloc has played out as expected but leavers seem to think we are being 'bullied' which drives even further hatred of the EU

7. Groups like the ERG obstruct progress but offer no viable alternative

8. May was stupid to call the GE, stupid in her tactics in it, stupid at failing to connect with voters through debates etc. and has left the government with no means to make things happen in what is one of the most divisive parliaments in decades both Labour and the Tories are miles away from the centre

Edited March 25, 2019 by coldel

[The G Man]

Regarding Col’s point 4 above, I can’t find mine at the minute but my Mrs paid £12 of her tax in 2018/19 to be a member of the E.U.

 

you should all have had your tax codes/where it all went in by now, IIRC mine was @ £62 (I think), about £1.25 a week, wow, what a cost.

 

as for whether I did or did not love my country, as a common weal type person, it was more than pleasurable when HM gov called on me tae help them oot, when despots/terrorists were throwing bombs and terrorism at our way of life.  Auld Lizzy herself, threw a couple of badges at me for helping oot!

 

theres a striking absence on this thread, as Col has highlighted, mainly among leavers, of an understanding of first past the post system when quoting “the will of the people”, just hilarious.

[The G Man]

Just watched this at a break, it’s a bit funny and a bit tragic, but sums up, for me the madness of this Brexit exercise.

 

I’d honestly never heard of this guy, far less seen any of his material.  Not too safe for work, as it’s a bit sweary, enjoy 

 

 

[Maggz]

2 minutes ago, The G Man said:

Just watched this at a break, it’s a bit funny and a bit tragic, but sums up, for me the madness of this Brexit exercise.

 

I’d honestly never heard of this guy, far less seen any of his material.  Not too safe for work, as it’s a bit sweary, enjoy 

 

 

You need to check more of Pies content. It's quite good, stand-up is debatable, but these clips are golden.

 

Fully aware someone may say there's no opinions and only social media links, but this was quite eye opening for me. If anyone has the time to watch it, I'd highly recommend it

 

 

[coldel]

Yes Mr Pie is a made up character been on the Tube for a couple of years now. Brexit was part of his act but he also waded in to stuff like Grenfell per quote 'I bet the new £20m refurb of Buck Palace has a sprinkler system'  or something along those lines. He is a good watch though he does shout out the bleedin obvious that gets lost in rhetoric.

[Andy_Muxlow]

So if the government did decide to revoke article 50, then cancel us leaving as we the British public are to "stupid" to make a decision on it altogether. What happens if the EU then say welcome back, you now need to take on the euro, you have to pay more in and stuff like that? Again this is just a chap rambling on about all this rubbish. But on the other hand what if??? 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Andy_Muxlow

[coldel]

1 hour ago, Andy_Muxlow said:

So if the government did decide to revoke article 50, then cancel us leaving as we the British public are to "stupid" to make a decision on it altogether. What happens if the EU then say welcome back, you now need to take on the euro, you have to pay more in and stuff like that? Again this is just a chap rambling on about all this rubbish. But on the other hand what if??? 

Given the indicative voting that happened this evening though how likely is any of that happening?

[docwra]

15 hours ago, Andy_Muxlow said:

 What happens if the EU then say welcome back, you now need to take on the euro, you have to pay more in and stuff like that? Again this is just a chap rambling on about all this rubbish. But on the other hand what if??? 

They have said since day 1 they are happy for us to remain on the existing terms. They dont want us to go, believe it or not. 

[Andy_Muxlow]

1 hour ago, docwra said:

They have said since day 1 they are happy for us to remain on the existing terms. They dont want us to go, believe it or not. 

Us or our money? 

[Adrian@TORQEN]

One of the best Brexit analysis I've read in the last 3 years, a must read in my opinion:
 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/03/humbling-britain

 

 

[Maggz]

1 hour ago, Andy_Muxlow said:

Us or our money? 

The rules the EU uses for wealth distribution is quite similar to what every country uses for taxes...which is the rich pay most, the poor pay least. I've been in both brackets in my life and agree this is the easiest way it can work. 

So your question is like asking if we, who earn above the average salary in the UK, really need the poor? And do they really need us, or only our money? It's quite a twisted view of the world we live in especially as half the money we pay to EU is returned to us and is invested frequently in poorer regions like Wales, NI, etc.

 

We're a society where everyone needs everyone and as we've been enjoying the longest peace and prosperity in Europe in generations or maybe forever, keeping the union literally saves millions of lives.

 

So the question is... Do you need peace, prosperity, good neighbors, alliances and live in a continent where we work together to compete with Chinese, Americans, and Russians, and not compete between ourselves? 

 

I'd say yes to all above,...

Edited March 28, 2019 by Maggz

[Wayne370Z]

19 hours ago, Maggz said:

The rules the EU uses for wealth distribution is quite similar to what every country uses for taxes...which is the rich pay most, the poor pay least.

So this is why all the poorer countries are scrabbling to sign up? They get more out of it than us £ for £.....?

 

" It's quite a twisted view of the world we live in especially as half the money we pay to EU is returned to us and is invested frequently in poorer regions like Wales, NI, etc."

 

So if we leave all of the money can be invested in our own poorer regions?

 

[Maggz]

47 minutes ago, Wayne370Z said:

So this is why all the poorer countries are scrabbling to sign up? They get more out of it than us £ for £.....?

 

" It's quite a twisted view of the world we live in especially as half the money we pay to EU is returned to us and is invested frequently in poorer regions like Wales, NI, etc."

 

So if we leave all of the money can be invested in our own poorer regions?

 

You clearly know absolutely nothing about what the EU is, why it was created and why it is being maintained. You could have at least read the wiki page on it and your question would be answered.

 

However, I know you're actually not looking for an answer but rather making a point of how great and rich the UK is and how leaching counties are joining it and taking our money (so very Trumpian of you), and implying we don't want to help others, which is fine. Anyone who knows nothing about its countries history, or the history of the continent they belong to, can have that opinion, it's just sad how oblivious some people are.

 

History has thought us that nationalism, borders, heritage, pride and land claims cause wars. Please do yourself a favour and check the list of all wars waged on the European continent, to get an idea how often we've had them.

No one wins in wars, everyone loses. Some more than others but no one has ever benefited from it. It kills and maims, it destroys families and communities, and it bankrupts countries - UK was quite good from living of handouts and credits from the US until it joined the EU. 

 

Now coming back to your "pay less invest more" theory...Our government already said they can't guarantee they will make up the lost funding in Wales or NI or anywhere else because it doesn't have that money. It's fictional... The economy is shrinking, pound falling and that's not the best investment environment, it's a lot better for austerity actually.

Next, the govt also said that we've lost a lot more per month than you guys were promised we'll save, by just the pound tanking, and we've not even left yet. 

 

There will be less money than we have now,  and Wales and NI will have no reimbursement, and NHS will have less money as well. Crazy right? 

 

So no, global economy doesn't work like your personal wallet, where if you take out £5 less, you are actually left with more money....

[Ponsonby]

1 hour ago, Wayne370Z said:

 

 

So if we leave all of the money can be invested in our own poorer regions?

 

That is assuming that our politicians can make good decisions - and the current @*!# show shows that they clearly can not.

I think that I trust Brussels with our money more than I do our own government.

 

[coldel]

1 hour ago, Wayne370Z said:

So this is why all the poorer countries are scrabbling to sign up? They get more out of it than us £ for £.....?

 

" It's quite a twisted view of the world we live in especially as half the money we pay to EU is returned to us and is invested frequently in poorer regions like Wales, NI, etc."

 

So if we leave all of the money can be invested in our own poorer regions?

 

It's not a simple subtraction and addition though the status quo does not remain in place. The obvious difference is that we will be out of Europe, that has a lot of implications at a financial level for the country a lot of which are not positive ones. We will also still have to pay to leave as we have contractual obligations to the projects we were involved in and walking away from, so in the short term we are going to not see some sort of windfall. 

[coldel]

With the deal now dead, EU look convinced we are heading to No-Deal exit with no extension or transition period - I guess now is the time to see how the ERG have planned for this outcome....

[Ekona]

Good. Let’s No Deal and and the facade that this was going to end any other way. Viva la revolucion! 

[ATTAK Z]

My only wish is that those that fly the Union Jack get it the right way up ... other than that, let's go

[Maggz]

It is monumentally ironic that the Member State planning to leave the EU because they want to make their own decisions, can't take any decision on leaving the EU