Stutopia Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Bullet said: Are you seriously saying we should vote indefinitely ? Isn't that what we do every time there's a general election, or is that undemocratic too? Not one post in this whole thread is advocating how good this deal actually is, in any quantifiable way! Doesn't that say something? And let's face it, if your argument against a vote is not based on the deal being so good, but on an incorrect technicality that "it's just not democracy", it illustrates beautifully how pitifully weak the deal is. And still no one knows why voting once is democracy, but more than once isn't. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, SuperStu said: Isn't that what we do every time there's a general election, or is that undemocratic too? Not one post in this whole thread is advocating how good this deal actually is, in any quantifiable way! Doesn't that say something? And let's face it, if your argument against a vote is not base on the deal being so good, but on an incorrect technicality that "it's just not democracy", it illustrates beautifully how pitifully weak the deal is. And still no one knows why voting once is democracy, but more than once isn't. You will only ever hear what you want to hear. A continuing theme in this thread is remainers demanding other people give them information, I would suggest that is why you're a remainer in first place. Trying to talk to you people is like trying to convince someone they have Stockholm syndrome. Case in point is that you would imagine that remainers would be pro Eu but when i put up a video of the European parliament voicing concerns about The UN trying to make talking about immigration a hate speech......I'm the racist one ????? you people cannot see though your brainwashing and main stream media education. I'm done here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 The irony here is strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, Bullet said: you people cannot see though your brainwashing and main stream media education. I spoke ages ago, way back on page 8 of this thread, about my main stream media views and enquired about your “reliable source for truth” (your words, not mine) that you claim to be tapped into, all you did was ignore it. 11 minutes ago, Bullet said: I'm done here. Don’t forget to collect your toys on the way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 As to why we should only have a single referendum on this issue, but we have continuous votes for the general elections, I would say that both are very different things. One is a single question on a single issue, to give a single solitary answer: It's not based on party politics, or on that of a single person. It's far more simple, and should not be asked more than once in a generation. Another is more general voting, one that most certainly comes down to party politics but also covers a vast spectrum of topics and issues that are perhaps less vital, less defining and something that can be changed from year to year if required. I think this is why some are saying that a second vote is undemocratic, not meaning it in a literal term but more because this was a very specific issue. I think I've probably used the term undemocratic in my posts about this, and maybe that's wrong. Maybe I actually just mean 'fair'. I don't consider it to be fair to keep voting over and over and over in a short space of time. Ask us again in 20 years if you like, I've no problem with that at all. I don't think we have any more information now than prior to the original referendum with regards to how damaging it will be to leave the EU: That was never really in question. Ultimately it more comes down to personal preference, and I very much doubt that a significant proportion of voters from either camp will have changed their minds after learning of what the deal entails. Do I have proof? Honestly, no I don't. It's a feeling from constant browsing and reading of various sites and news sources, and I may well be wrong. That's just how I view the whole thing. Is May's deal dreadful? No. It's exactly what we should've expected. That doesn't make it bad, that makes it realistic. It's more of the same, just more awkward and with more risk. Is a Hard Brexit going to be worse? Of course. It cannot be any other way. I hope that the politicians can find a way to smooth the waters before the ultimate deadline, but I doubt they will. I believe we're heading for a Hard Brexit, that very little can stop that now, and that we're going to suffer for years. But that's what we as a country voted for, and we will have to find a way to make the best of it. The best of a bad deal, if you will. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATTAK Z Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 I believe the Government will get a bit more out of the EU when the vote on Tuesday is a resounding negative. Whether that be Teresa's or someone else's doing doesn't really matter. Just consider how the French people would be reacting now if they were being offered a similar exit deal ... it would be mayhem ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 I am afraid to say i dont think the EU will bend at all unless they are staring down the barrel of no deal, they are playing hard ball and unified and until we are too i dont think they will give any more concessions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATTAK Z Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Jetpilot said: ........... (the EU) are playing hard ball and unified .......... I don't think they are unified (I mean the people of the EU, not the negotiators) - just wait till we get a deal and see how many other countries make a move to disengage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 10 hours ago, ATTAK Z said: I don't think they are unified (I mean the people of the EU, not the negotiators) - just wait till we get a deal and see how many other countries make a move to disengage Absolutely, but i meant the member states/junker/negotiators, it would be interesting to see what they do if staring down the barrel of a no deal. France wasnt a million miles away with Le Pen, Italy and others talking about a referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) Well this week will be the telling week - EU have said no way they will renegotiate, its this or nothing and that all negotiations are done. Really it depends on what happens when its rejected in parliament, if May goes, if the no confidence vote appears, if Labour win a GE. Ultimately it is not in the EUs interest to suddenly give a load of concessions because our MPs reject the deal, otherwise as above it will embolden the more far right politics of certain EU countries. What is a shame is that the ground that the EU claim they have given up to the UK to allow us to find the deal has not been clearly cited. It would demonstrate to people how we have arrived where we have. Negotiation is not about getting your ideal scenario (so the views of Boris et al), both sides if stuck by that principle would never agree. We have probably given more ground than the EU, but of course thats the nature of negotiating with a hugely powerful bloc - I would have liked to have seen what they gave up to get to where we are - the only analysis I can find is this one https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-concessions-factbox/factbox-where-the-eu-has-made-concessions-in-brexit-talks-idUSKCN1NL1WA To be honest, if it wasn't for the backstop, would the exit deal be such a bad one? What parts of it are people generally annoyed at that its so terrible? Edited December 10, 2018 by coldel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Well this will no doubt get people on both sides fired up... https://news.sky.com/story/european-court-of-justice-rules-uk-can-unilaterally-revoke-article-50-and-halt-brexit-11576865 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATTAK Z Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I think that's last week's news Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 No its new, last week a leading EU law maker said the UK could possibly revoke article 50 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46428579 clearly that was opinion only and not legally binding - this news is breaking right now that the court has officially said we can. I am sure you can imagine those against the exit deal and no deal will be holding it up in the air shouting with renewed vigour. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Keep an eye on the news around 1pm, TM has called a conference call with senior ministers for one hour from 11:30am. Is she going to pull the vote? Or are they literally going to re-inforce the message that the deal is a hard fought one that is not going to be renegotiated (as mentioned by Irelands deputy PM this morning). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 ...and its still going ahead. With a further reiteration from the EU that the deal has already been negotiated and agreed. I think we might see a few bloody noses tomorrow, not only TM but also those MPs who think we can just go back to the negotiating table if MPs vote against it - alternatively, it could be that the EU are saying this to pressure MPs into voting for the deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Voting postponed... More cowardice from May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Govt sources saying its postponed...statement at 3:30pm. Must be embarrassing for Gove who was telling everyone this morning it is on. Its like watching an episode of the 'Thick of It' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATTAK Z Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Bye Bye Teresa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 I see little no point in not going to the vote, the mp's arent going to come round, the eu is not going to come round, so lets just get the vote done, reject it and go from there! The only arsenal in her locker will be to tell the Eu if they cant renegotiate its going to be a no deal, but that is just calling their bluff and i dont think they will have their bluff called! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATTAK Z Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 DD may step in now ? Hope so ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 What it does do is delay the lost vote > general election direct route, which is why Jezza is out there screaming bloody murder right now. He is probably going to lose a load of cash on all those election posters he pre-paid on for delivery Weds...vote of no confidence on the way possibly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, ATTAK Z said: DD may step in now ? Hope so ... I would love to know why? He was brexit secretary for 2 years and failed his remit spectacularly, made no progress, couldnt negotiate, lost time and subsequently weakened our negotiating power - given this complete failure to get a deal, I can only presume he would come in to oversee a no deal exit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATTAK Z Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 minute ago, coldel said: I would love to know why? ................. I can only presume he would come in to oversee a no deal exit? Yep that's the way forward now if we are to leave the EU as the country voted for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Just now, ATTAK Z said: Yep that's the way forward now if we are to leave the EU as the country voted for Then we do not need him for that, in fact we do not need a brexit secretary as no deal exit is a much more straightforward and quickly destructive process. DD for me is fundamental to the entire mess we are in now, he is as culpable as Cameron and anyone else. He was set a task to create an exit deal and wasted 2 years failing because he couldnt negotiate away from the fantasy land he and the JRM cronies hung onto. The guy should not be given another job, unless we believe catastrophic failure should result in reward as a way forwards. Somewhat ironically the deal on the table is a leave EU deal, fundamentally it is. The backstop is the only thing that would technical tie us to the EU and even then its an option that may or may not be introduced. By pure definition the deal does give the option to leave the EU. And lets also bear in mind not all leave voters voted for a hard no deal brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 Personally people should have been working in the background on wto deals for this very scenario, i hope thats the case! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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