The G Man Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 still waiting for your argument to convince remainers to leave. You’re points are continually mute in this discussion. You have no stance other than, ‘leave is gooder’ What is your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATTAK Z Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Maggz said: So you'd be totally fine with dairy and meat prices increasing by 20% as an example? How do you think that would impact the poorest people in the country? You think they care from where the food comes? They care, and quite passionately, about not being hungry "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 Hugh, I thought better of you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 8, 2018 Author Share Posted December 8, 2018 45 minutes ago, The G Man said: still waiting for your argument to convince remainers to leave. You’re points are continually mute in this discussion. You have no stance other than, ‘leave is gooder’ What is your point? Keep up, we voted to leave, so i actually have no idea why people are banging on about the vote or trying to justify staying its irrelevant, fingers crossed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 Dear oh dear, still no argument to leave then. The electorate have moved on, you know, just like they do at every general election. You have still to put forward the continued case to leave, given the evidence now. im keeping up, not stuck in 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 8, 2018 Author Share Posted December 8, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, The G Man said: The electorate have moved on, you know im keeping up, not stuck in 2016 Look at the polls if you believe that for fear of repeating myself, the forecast/split now is hardly any more in favour of remaining than it was when last polled in 2016 and looked what happened then, they were wrong, so no one can clearly state this time would be any different, for or against so its utterly irrelevant what may or may not happen with regards to a 2nd referendum at this time! Edited December 8, 2018 by Jetpilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 So, what is it you want? hard, soft, Norway+, backstop? Back to terrorism in NI, rickets? Kids up chimneys, what? still waiting to hear what your nirvana is and how it’ll benefit the nation? geez a clue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 How do we know the electorate have moved on? The left made a massive noise on social media during the last election, and still Labour didn’t get into power. Just because there’s a lot of noise right now on BookFace of people calling for another vote, doesn’t mean that’s how the majority feel. I distintly remember everyone thinking Remain would be a landslide, due to that being how the internet said they were going to vote. That didn’t pan out well either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 I don’t do Facebook, so have no idea of your position on it. The fact remains, no one of the Brexit camp has yet to offer or convince that their option is better than the status quo. All the evidence that has been produced on this thread points that way, there’s been no offerable evidence to the opposite. i want a brexiteer to give me the argument that will change my mind on exiting the EU, there has been none offered on here, the opposite has been true of the remain side. The status quo, is what we know of as fact, the rest is pure assumption based on nothing. Have a listen to the video REgards the latest ‘Norway+’ deal and what that bloc thinks. Feel free Dan to support one way or the other, but justify it, don’t just offer platitudes with no input to what we could face as opposed to what we know now. Its a mess, God help us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 "i want a brexiteer to give me the argument that will change my mind on exiting the EU" Just in case you missed it , We already voted to leave and we one. Trying to convince you now would be like teaching you to shut gates after your horse has already bolted. I don't know why the left keep going on and on, The time to argue the point was before the referendum not after. The vote was won by leave and if this was reversed or rerun it would make a mockery of our democracy. Would any vote every stand ever again ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kieran O'Quick Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 The economic argument is pointless. Arguing that leave is costly is not going to convince leave voters to change. They believe what they believe and won't be bought. 20% here or there on commodities is nothing. They're battle hardened - they saw house prices go up by 300%, (unpredicted, no warnings by experts) mainly facilitated by a Parliament who made fortunes off their second homes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 2 hours ago, The G Man said: Feel free Dan to support one way or the other, but justify it, don’t just offer platitudes with no input to what we could face as opposed to what we know now. I voted Remain, I’m in the same camp as you. However, I support democracy and the only clear vote we have had has had Leave as the winner, so that’s what should happen and be damned with the results. We cannot go around and say that the electorate has moved on and people need to put forward a reason to leave: We’ve done that. It’s how we leave now that’s important. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATTAK Z Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, The G Man said: i want a brexiteer to give me the argument that will change my mind on exiting the EU, there has been none offered on here, the opposite has been true of the remain side. Frankly, and without trying to be rude, I don't care whether you change your mind or not; and I certainly don't propose to try to convince you, nor anyone else for that matter, why your opinion should change or count any less than it did when we had the referendum in 2016. Edited December 8, 2018 by ATTAK Z 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 On 07/12/2018 at 22:29, ATTAK Z said: If German milk is cheaper than local milk in the UK that's an excellent reason to leave Europe and pay our local farmers a fair price for their produce. Being self sufficient for stuff we are able to produce ourselves is a good thing IMO. I’ve never understood why farmers don’t have an OPEC for milk, like the milk marketing board, forcing sensible prices for farmers On 07/12/2018 at 22:32, ATTAK Z said: Another serious question for the remainers: How does Switzerland survive and indeed, thrive in Europe ? Opaque banking systems protected by strong privacy, you want to hide/launder money, do it through Switzerland and they live off the banking fees. I think this is likely to end up being the only way of the U.K. making anything “positive” out of Brexit. We can be a giant Cayman Islands. The only down side is the sort of people you're supporting by doing business via numbered accounts, but I think we’ve long since stopped giving a monkeys about ethics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 11 hours ago, The G Man said: I want a brexiteer to give me the argument that will change my mind on exiting the EU George, there’s absolutely no coherent economic argument that can possibly convince anyone who has even the most fundamental grasp of trading, that there are genuine trade benefits to leaving one of the world’s biggest free trade areas and surrendering the group negotiating power we have as a member. There just isn’t any, you may as well stop looking. This leave us with the only vaguely coherent argument for this Brexit deal. I don’t want foreigners. Despite them making demonstrably positive economic impacts, such as funding more school places than they take, or contributing more to NHS budgets than they cost, or being of the perfect working age to pay for the increasing costs of an aging population. The global financial crisis and the resultant years of austerity have been shamelessly blamed on migration and refugees, when anyone with a functioning memory knows bankers did it. We know this because we gave them billions and billions to bail them out, unlike the migrants, who pay in millions and millions. We even saw them on the telly taking the money. People can rightly say that there were lots of other reasons for voting leave, which is definitely true, some of them are very reasonable, but if the referendum had asked; - Remain? - Leave? - Ban Migration? There'd still be 48% next to Remain, but there wouldn’t be 52% beside Leave. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 To be clear i didnt vote to leave for that reason, but so what if they did they were the majority, do you (just summarising as a remainer) not want democracy or do you only want democracy when it aligns with your views and opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 12 hours ago, Ekona said: I voted Remain, I’m in the same camp as you. However, I support democracy and the only clear vote we have had has had Leave as the winner, so that’s what should happen and be damned with the results. We cannot go around and say that the electorate has moved on and people need to put forward a reason to leave: We’ve done that. It’s how we leave now that’s important. Agree with this entirely. We voted remain after discussing the pros and cons with my boys and daughter-in-laws as it is going to be their future and their children's future. To be honest, we were minded to vote out as we were around when the UK voted to join the EU as it was then - a completely different animal to what is nowadays. In typical current EU fashion that we have come to experience, we are now being bullied around over the deal. Mr Cameron has a lot to answer for in my book with the yes/no options that did not spell out at the time the full, truthful, implications of voting ether way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Jetpilot said: To be clear i didnt vote to leave for that reason, but so what if they did they were the majority, do you (just summarising as a remainer) not want democracy or do you only want democracy when it aligns with your views and opinions? Why is voting once is democratic and more than once undemocratic? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 42 minutes ago, SuperStu said: Why is voting once is democratic and more than once undemocratic? Because someone might have changed their mind. Despite the polls showing that absolutrly no one has changed their mind. Polls that might or might not be accurate... At least that's what I've got from this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 (edited) Its not, but the majority voted to leave, democratically do you not think we should leave before we decide to go back to the polls? I really cannot see any good outcome from another referendum for this country, the future may look bleak economically outside the EU, but i reckon the political system would be a total disaster should another referendum go ahead, but i guess it depends again what you see best for the country, economic chaos or political chaos and that will probably align itself with the way people voted in the referendum anyway in all honesty. Edited December 9, 2018 by Jetpilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Jetpilot said: Its not, but the majority voted to leave, democratically do you not think we should leave before we decide to go back to the polls? I really cannot see any good outcome from another referendum for this country, the future may look bleak economically outside the EU, but i reckon the political system would be a total disaster should another referendum go ahead, but i guess it depends again what you see best for the country, economic chaos or political chaos and that will probably align itself with the way people voted in the referendum anyway in all honesty. Not one line of that explains why voting twice is undemocracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 So your saying any vote is null and void under democracy, interesting concept Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 42 minutes ago, SuperStu said: Not one line of that explains why voting twice is undemocracy. The whole idea of a vote is to find out what the masses want and to get them to vote again on the same subject comes across very much like "wrong answer vote again" which is something a dictatorship would do and not a democracy. Are you seriously saying we should vote indefinitely ? who decides what the 'right' answers is in your system ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Firstly I don't think that you have a good grasp of dictatorships. That aside, the referendum was 2 years ago with a significantly different idea of what what was possible. We now have a better idea of what a Brexit deal actually looks like (rather the flight of fancy, wishful thinking and down-right delusional ideas were touted two years ago). How is even remotely undemocratic to have a vote after the facts are known, several years after a proposition? Personally I don't think we should have another vote but that's because I don't trust the general public to be informed enough to make the best decision; not simply because there was a vote historically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, ilogikal1 said: We now have a better idea of what a Brexit deal actually looks like The vote was stay in the eu or leave the eu, nothing more, nothing less, least of all not pending what deal/agreement could be put together. The forecast by remainers for leaving was always chucking the economy under a bus, there is nothing new to the table and now some want to chuck the political system under a bus because it wasnt the right outcome on the vote for a minority! I dont often agree with Ekona but if "people" werent aware of what they were voting for on what was a pretty simple choice, leave/stay, i wouldnt trust them to sit the right way round on a toilet, let alone cast another vote! Edited December 9, 2018 by Jetpilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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