Brexit again

[coldel]

25 minutes ago, docwra said:

I dont know, I think we have seen the first example of an MP actually admitting the real situation this morning with Hammond saying Brexit is going to hurt the economy.

At some point TM is going to have to come out and say "look lads, I did the best I could, do you honestly think the EU were going to give us the farm? Although I voted to stay in as I its now obvious anything else would damage the country Ive done the best job I can"
This suggestion that anyone else could have done better needs to be shot down ASAP IMO, bloody Corbyn cant even decide if hes anti semitic or not :lo:

The labour 5 point thing is impossible anyway, she could prove that in her opening statement. 

Yes I think it could well be that her tact is to push back on what their plans are and force them into an admittance by inference that they have no plan and would push us into a no deal scenario. Corbyn is highly effective at debating whats put in front of him but I think most people do not trust him with the keys to the economy and thats not going away any time soon. 

 

The only issue I would really have is the undefined backstop clause, like any project, if you do not have a deadline it never gets done. I can see the EU using this as leverage to get the best trade deals for them - the rest of the exit deal is pretty much on par for what any reasonable person might expect from a negotiation.

[Maggz]

8 minutes ago, Adrian@TORQEN said:

I know it's not RT.com, but worth checking, along with all further comments from David:

 

https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1067750985676873728/photo/1

Buahahha Argentina. We could have at least went for Serbia or Albania. Also not in EU, seems that's the only criteria we care about. 

Also 0.2% GDP is a laugh, not to mention it's based on cheqers which wasn't the deal we drafted with the EU.

 

They're having a laugh

[Maggz]

50 minutes ago, Jay84 said:

Even working in the auto service industry as a repairing garage, 50% of my techs fully believed what they were being told about the NHS. They don't work for my any more (not because they voted leave), but I do wonder if they would vote differently if they got the chance. One works for Mercedes now 

People don't realise how many fell for that. Now it's out, almost no one is admitting that's the case, and those that do, are back-paddling like crazy

[Maggz]

42 minutes ago, docwra said:

I dont know, I think we have seen the first example of an MP actually admitting the real situation this morning with Hammond saying Brexit is going to hurt the economy.

At some point TM is going to have to come out and say "look lads, I did the best I could, do you honestly think the EU were going to give us the farm? Although I voted to stay in as I its now obvious anything else would damage the country Ive done the best job I can"
This suggestion that anyone else could have done better needs to be shot down ASAP IMO, bloody Corbyn cant even decide if hes anti semitic or not :lo:

The labour 5 point thing is impossible anyway, she could prove that in her opening statement. 

Watch BBC radio 5 listener questions to May. She got asked that, directly and with a plea not to faf around, and give a straight answer. She choked more than once and didn't answer.

An absolute disgrace 

[Bullet]

 

Feel free to make of that what you will, add/remove words etc whatever fits the agenda

 

It never said 350 million for the nhs and what really gets me is that the remainers were moaning "where's the 350 million ?" a week after we voted to leave, It wasn't if we vote to leave it was when we leave and we haven't done that yet.

[Maggz]

26 minutes ago, Bullet said:

 

Feel free to make of that what you will, add/remove words etc whatever fits the agenda

 

It never said 350 million for the nhs and what really gets me is that the remainers were moaning "where's the 350 million ?" a week after we voted to leave, It wasn't if we vote to leave it was when we leave and we haven't done that yet.

Did you read the message on the bus? Feels like we're not talking about the same bus. 

 

"We send the EU 350 million a week, let's fund our NHS instead. Vote leave"

 

Please explain what this means, thank you. 

[Ekona]

It’s ambiguous at best. It can either read as we’ll give the NHS £350M instead per week, or it can be read as a fact then a suggestion without giving specific figures. 

[Ekona]

It’s the whole ‘Uncle Jack off a horse” grammar example, but on a bus instead.  

[blobbish]

Really this is poor advertising and can be read both ways. Its not explicit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maggz]

Just now, blobbish said:

Really this is poor advertising and can be read both ways. Its not explicit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Ekona said:

It’s ambiguous at best. It can either read as we’ll give the NHS £350M instead per week, or it can be read as a fact then a suggestion without giving specific figures. 

 

I think this is a poor excuse now that we know the money doesn't exist. Worst back-paddling attempt. 

Half of the campaign was wrapped around the 350M for NHS and saying now, that just because it's not specifically stated the whole 350M will be spent on it suddenly means something else, is just a sad attempt to change what the people were told. 

 

When Farage said it 2 days after the vote, I thought it was disgusting.

 

Just my opinion. 

[Ekona]

It’s not a poor excuse, it’s simply down to how YOU choose to read it. That’s pretty obvious given the text and punctuation involved, no? 

[Maggz]

https://amp.uk.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-says-his-350-million-a-week-brexit-claim-was-an-underestimate-2018-1

 

It's not about what I read, it's what the leave campaign people said during the bus times. Their interpretation was what convinced the people. 

[coldel]

It was designed to fool the gullible and it worked on many to be fair. If you look at NHS funding up until 2010 it actually got more than that in increases each year anyway, it wasn't like the NHS historically had never had money like that before. Yes since 2010 funding has flatlined because the country was broke and borrowing billions, but all services had the same problem. 

 

As for 'interpretation' thats just rubbish IMO, we had to sit through endless interviews about how that money would be redirected to fund X Y and Z and within 24 hours of the vote Boris et al were standing there denying that was ever the case. Leave are very quick to point out we didn't slip into a predicted recession last year but who said we would you could argue then? Economists literally said to leave voters 'do you want to see the country slip into recession?' you could interpret the same way. It was meant to mislead and consume the gullible.

 

What was worse than that was that when the treasury (and the guy on the leave campaign that coined the phrase) pointed out that we have never given the EU £350m per week because the rebate is given to us before we pay the bill, even when that was shown as unequivocal fact to no longer be debated, it still stayed on the bus. 

[Ekona]

And still it stayed as THE slogan of the campaign. I hope whoever came up with it was paid handsomely, because it’s absolute genius in terms of marketing. 

[Jay84]

I agree the bus has implications emblazoned on the side rather than promises, but the bus wasn't the ONLY place where such promises were made as Coldel has stated.

That aside, will our manufacturing really leave the country, Toyota Nissan etc, or can that be attributed to remainers giving equal and opposite spin the leavers gave at the start? Airbus is also and interesting conundrum, Trent engines built in Derby and sold to airbus where they are transported to France for assembly. Will it become more cost effective for the engine to be manufactured on the continent now, or even adapt the air frame to hold another branded engine? Or will trade continiue?

[coldel]

I imagine someone in a meeting sat there googling numbers stumbled across the topline figure and divided it by 52 and said 'oi you lot why dont we say we give the EU 350m because the general public will think thats a lot of money without realising in global economy terms its peanuts - they might just fall for it'

 

Which would be followed by 'yes but we don't send the EU £350m, its in black and white on the countries accounts on the treasury website that we don't pay that much and never have done'

 

Which the OP retorted 'yeah but its the general public, loads of them want to leave because of the hot immigration issue, this will just give them something to cling on to that is about economics instead, most of them arent going to be savvy enough to bother to find out the actual number, and this will be on a thousand Memes too which have got to be true'

 

Which the response was 'Nigel, ring up ACME Vehicle Wrappers and order one banner with £350m on it - if anyone notices we can always change the 3 to a 2 pretty easily'

[Jetpilot]

1 hour ago, Maggz said:

Did you read the message on the bus? Feels like we're not talking about the same bus. 

 

"We send the EU 350 million a week, let's fund our NHS instead. Vote leave"

 

Please explain what this means, thank you. 

Funny how the remainers jump to that bus and tell all us stupid brexiters what it meant and how we read it and we were scammed and lied too, did you stop to think for one second maybe we didnt interpret or read it wrong and knew exactly what it meant?? The answer is no of course you didnt, but of course you will want to tell me thats what i and others believed otherwise you just cant seem to get your head around why people voted out, perhaps the most important words to Brexiters were at the bottom

 

LETS TAKE BACK CONTROL 

 

Shame it doesnt seem like its turning out like that.........at the moment 

[coldel]

But taking back control was a fallacy in itself given the conditions being quoted officially in lead leavers interviews. The idea that we could retain all the benefits of the EU whilst out of it and in full control was just as unlikely as the claim on the money on the bus. The whole point of paying to be in a club, is to get the benefits of the club. Sure there is a dress code associated with it along with a membership cost, but thats the price you pay to get the benefits. Along with disproving the £350m claim many people were saying the deal could not be done in the image being painted, and its being played out in front of us, as expected.

[Jetpilot]

Course not, if we are out which is what the majority voted for, we have control  If making a deal means not in control, its not for me  

 

A club is a good reference and if using that analogy i have been a member of a few clubs, in some cases the politics of said club ruins the benefits, in which case i have left and joined another club and whilst that club perhaps doesnt offer as good as benefits and facilities its still a much nicer place to be because its void of politics

Edited November 28, 2018 by Jetpilot

[coldel]

Its a shame there are no other clubs out there that we can viably join as they are on the other side of town, and we are in the wrong postcode to join them 

 

They wanted control, but also promised trade deals, a free trade area with the EU, no costs etc. If the leave campaign said you have control but we couldnt have all that straight off the bat I wouldnt have a problem with that either. But the idea of full control is again in itself something consigned to the past, a global economy, technology, change in the power of services over product provision all that means that being some sort of self sufficient island is not really viable, its not how the world works anymore, everything is interlinked, sure lets stop others fishing our waters, but then we do fish theirs - where does it end? 

[Jay84]

I'm pretty sure the ratio of people to farmable land is wrong here too, to not rely on trade. We could have a mandate that suggests everyone sacrifices 30% of their garden for alotment purposes. You have to grow a portion of your greens, or provide your own egss. I like lots of countries, but it makes sense to trade with those closest.

[coldel]

And the 4m properties in the UK that are flats...they buy potatoes carrots and peas off their better off and better equipped neighbours 

[Maggz]

2 hours ago, Jetpilot said:

Funny how the remainers jump to that bus and tell all us stupid brexiters what it meant and how we read it and we were scammed and lied too, did you stop to think for one second maybe we didnt interpret or read it wrong and knew exactly what it meant?? The answer is no of course you didnt, but of course you will want to tell me thats what i and others believed otherwise you just cant seem to get your head around why people voted out, perhaps the most important words to Brexiters were at the bottom

 

LETS TAKE BACK CONTROL 

 

Shame it doesnt seem like its turning out like that.........at the moment 

I don't mind replying to posts but at least make some sense. Bullet opened the bus topic out of the blue, and my response was to his post. 

 

When it comes to lies, everything which was said with the intention to move the vote even if proof said otherwise is by definition a lie. 

Unless you can find something u said which wasn't factual?

 

You're not taking back control as long as there's any agreement with the EU. In fact by leaving and losing voting rights we've given up this little bit of control we have. Hard Brexit gives control, but also a meltdown economy. 

[ilogikal1]

2 hours ago, coldel said:

And the 4m properties in the UK that are flats...they buy potatoes carrots and peas off their better off and better equipped neighbours 

They can run the battery farms in their front rooms. Leave the free range stuff to those with gardens or ground floor flats. There you go, I have solved everything. 

[Stutopia]

18 hours ago, Ekona said:

Agreed. However the reverse is also true, given the massive rise in popularity of socialism in the younger section of society, without realising the full consequences of what that would actually mean in practice. 

 

For the record though, I’m not saying either is a good thing. Far right policies are equally as damning as far left, and I’m much more comfortable with the middle ground. This is partly why I think the ConLD government of a few years back was actually the right way to go, with the LDs reigning in some of the more extreme ideas from the Tories. Shame that most people only ever viewed it as a bad thing given that it started the much-needed (at the time) austerity. 

Yeah, taking Momentum as a UK example, they certainly seem to have got their act together as a machine for using social media for targeting and recruiting the young voters. However, that’s probably the most leftist of the influential political groups out there and the policies they’re putting out are not even close to hard left. We had nationalised rail and utilities when I was a kid, but even the Tory government in the 80s never described that as communism!

 

Also, whichever way you lean politically, the messaging is different; advocating increased spending is risky from a taxation point of view, but ultimately the message is one of improvement and is not an outright lie, though many disagree with this ideology you don’t see many examples of outright lying. The messaging that the problems in the UK can be solved by things like curbing immigration (which ties nicely in with the Brexit fiasco) are simply factually inaccurate, or, what we used to call lies.