Jetpilot Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 It gets worse, just seen on the news the eu court of justice has met to see if the UK can legally change its decision to leave the EU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 You'd have hoped we would've checked that first really. I hope the answer is no. Right now, we're going to get exactly what we deserve IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Excellent news, it feels 5 degrees warmer outside this morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Well the economic impact reports are coming out today, no doubt will say No Deal is much worse than the Exit Deal but that's obvious. Interesting I saw Hammond this morning in an interview say that TM would be open to a TV debate on the deal with Corbyn. Risky strategy, but must mean she isn't confident it is going to make it through parliament given her non attendance last time that had such a negative impact on public perception of her and subsequent loss of seats at the election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted November 28, 2018 Author Share Posted November 28, 2018 Oh that would be fun, i would love to hear what deal Labour plans to get on the agreement, rather than just disagree with anything TM has done Probably just some more fairyland promises of a never ending pot of gold to pump into the machine, abolish uni fees etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Exactly, all the vitriol has been around the backstop (and rightly so) but what miracle is everyone expecting? Boris, JRM, DD, Farage, UKIP etc. all promised how easy this would be, Gove saying 'the day after we vote leave we hold all the cards and can choose our own path' before DD caved in on day one and made no progress thereafter. I would like to know what deal you can get on the table where: We pay no exit money to cover liabilities we still have in Europe We have tariff and check free borders for trade We decide what traits of the EU bloc we implement i.e. free movement To be able to implement trade deals with immediate effect I am not sure how you tick all those boxes whilst the EU has its own agenda, it just doesn't look possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggz Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 46 minutes ago, Jetpilot said: Oh that would be fun, i would love to hear what deal Labour plans to get on the agreement, rather than just disagree with anything TM has done Probably just some more fairyland promises of a never ending pot of gold to pump into the machine, abolish uni fees etc etc You literally described the Brexit leave campaign. Funny how standards work 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggz Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 19 minutes ago, coldel said: Exactly, all the vitriol has been around the backstop (and rightly so) but what miracle is everyone expecting? Boris, JRM, DD, Farage, UKIP etc. all promised how easy this would be, Gove saying 'the day after we vote leave we hold all the cards and can choose our own path' before DD caved in on day one and made no progress thereafter. I would like to know what deal you can get on the table where: We pay no exit money to cover liabilities we still have in Europe We have tariff and check free borders for trade We decide what traits of the EU bloc we implement i.e. free movement To be able to implement trade deals with immediate effect I am not sure how you tick all those boxes whilst the EU has its own agenda, it just doesn't look possible. Of course it doesn't. EU is rigid, it has no option to break apart the 3 pillars. Thats the whole point of being locked in. Each member hates a part of the 3 pillars, but all benefit so massively from it, that no one wants to destroy their country economy by leaving. Leave campaign lied in order to convince people it's possible and that even no deal will have no consequence. Easy trade deals, easy WTO rules, trade with everyone we want, etc. This is a week old: But due to political consequences - meaning parties will lose votes if they go against what people want even if it's detrimental too the country, they're willing to go to the end, no matter how bad for everyone it will be. Well everyone but the 1%, they'll definitely not be hungry in any case. Can't say the same for people just above the poverty threshold, but who cares about them, right? It's not "me" is what it matters to most I hope no **** ever calls a referendum with a question around going against basic human rights, as it seems the UK parliament has no issues doing whatever people want. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 22 minutes ago, Maggz said: Well everyone but the 1%, they'll definitely not be hungry in any case. Can't say the same for people just above the poverty threshold, but who cares about them, right? It's not "me" is what it matters to most Interestingly the breakdown of votes by class (so broadly taking into account wealth by definition) indicates that those in the lower earning brackets were far more likely to vote Leave than those earning much more. This equally applies to the unemployed and the stay-at-homers as well, compared to those working full and part time which was much closer but in favour of Remain. Arguably the cows voted for their own slaughter. Source: https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2016-eu-referendum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) Yes economic group and age were big drivers of decision making in the vote. I remember in the early stages of the counts being announced on the night the jubilation in Sunderland with imagery of people there rejoicing, many of whom are supported by jobs in the car industry, which is now likely to be under threat if the right deal is not thrashed out as we export so many cars to the EU. Oh the irony. Oh the lack of willingness to do anything other than read the Daily Mail of the average voter. Edited November 28, 2018 by coldel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted November 28, 2018 Author Share Posted November 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Maggz said: You literally described the Brexit leave campaign. Funny how standards work Its nothing about standards, no one ever knew how the deal would go, but now everyone has shown their hands, so its very easy for JC to sit there and criticise TM's deal/agreement but i would like to see him do better, he wont and he knows that, he is just playing party politics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Which is the most disturbing thing, all the political point scoring. If he was serious about helping the people he'd have been offering his advisors and ideas for free on day one, but at no point have any of the other parties offered to join in. They knew it would be a clusterf*ck, and all wanted to distance themselves from it rather than actually do something about it. May doing a live TV debate with Corbyn is suicide. As much as May normally gets the better of him in PMQs, he'll rip her to shreds over this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 I think people knew that the promises of the Leave campaign were quite frankly ridiculous, anyone believing we could just walk away, pay nothing, start knocking out trade deals all over the world with impunity whilst continuing to exist in a free trade arrangement with the EU probably have white coats with the arms tied behind the back hanging up in their wardrobes. But what is true is that in the meantime no one has come up with an alternative that isn't a hard leave. JRM made up some crap about Canada+++++++ which was quickly dismissed as more of the above i.e just making stuff up but otherwise its all points scoring without anyone making any progress on getting us out of this mess with something credible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, Ekona said: Which is the most disturbing thing, all the political point scoring. If he was serious about helping the people he'd have been offering his advisors and ideas for free on day one, but at no point have any of the other parties offered to join in. They knew it would be a clusterf*ck, and all wanted to distance themselves from it rather than actually do something about it. May doing a live TV debate with Corbyn is suicide. As much as May normally gets the better of him in PMQs, he'll rip her to shreds over this. It is political now, the real possibility is that we car crash into a no deal leave, May etc. get booted out and we are then open to the hard brexiters stepping in. It could be that was the plan all along that moderates take the fall of failing to implement the unimplementable and we spiral into a hard right wing nationalist run Tory government which is quite frankly a terrible thought. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Oh I dunno... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 2 hours ago, Ekona said: Interestingly the breakdown of votes by class (so broadly taking into account wealth by definition) indicates that those in the lower earning brackets were far more likely to vote Leave than those earning much more. This equally applies to the unemployed and the stay-at-homers as well, compared to those working full and part time which was much closer but in favour of Remain. Arguably the cows voted for their own slaughter. Source: https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2016-eu-referendum It’s an interesting phenomenon this. I met people in the States getting free Medicare who were dead against it because it’s “communism”. Literally voting to make their own lot worse. The right has really got its **** together when it comes to convincing, particularly less well off, people that money should flow from poor to rich. Whilst I disagree with the lies they pedal to achieve it, you can only marvel at the effectiveness, be it Brexit, privatisation, healthcare, here or abroad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Agreed. However the reverse is also true, given the massive rise in popularity of socialism in the younger section of society, without realising the full consequences of what that would actually mean in practice. For the record though, I’m not saying either is a good thing. Far right policies are equally as damning as far left, and I’m much more comfortable with the middle ground. This is partly why I think the ConLD government of a few years back was actually the right way to go, with the LDs reigning in some of the more extreme ideas from the Tories. Shame that most people only ever viewed it as a bad thing given that it started the much-needed (at the time) austerity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 And as a case in point to almost go along with people voting to cut their own throats, bearing in mind I’m now employed directly by the State, every time I vote Tory I’m basically voting for my own wage freeze. I do it though because right now I believe a Lab government would be worse for the country as a whole, so I put others before me. Then again, a more sensible Labour could convince me to vote for them in the future, like I have done in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Even working in the auto service industry as a repairing garage, 50% of my techs fully believed what they were being told about the NHS. They don't work for my any more (not because they voted leave), but I do wonder if they would vote differently if they got the chance. One works for Mercedes now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 2 hours ago, Ekona said: May doing a live TV debate with Corbyn is suicide. As much as May normally gets the better of him in PMQs, he'll rip her to shreds over this. I dont know, I think we have seen the first example of an MP actually admitting the real situation this morning with Hammond saying Brexit is going to hurt the economy. At some point TM is going to have to come out and say "look lads, I did the best I could, do you honestly think the EU were going to give us the farm? Although I voted to stay in as I its now obvious anything else would damage the country Ive done the best job I can" This suggestion that anyone else could have done better needs to be shot down ASAP IMO, bloody Corbyn cant even decide if hes anti semitic or not :lo: The labour 5 point thing is impossible anyway, she could prove that in her opening statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 I did like her shopping list comeback this morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 I know it's not RT.com, but worth checking, along with all further comments from David: https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1067750985676873728/photo/1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggz Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 58 minutes ago, SuperStu said: It’s an interesting phenomenon this. I met people in the States getting free Medicare who were dead against it because it’s “communism”. Literally voting to make their own lot worse. The right has really got its **** together when it comes to convincing, particularly less well off, people that money should flow from poor to rich. Whilst I disagree with the lies they pedal to achieve it, you can only marvel at the effectiveness, be it Brexit, privatisation, healthcare, here or abroad. Not only that, they voted against Obamacare because Obama, not knowing they're actually voting against the affordable care act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Again, this is why the public shouldn’t be allowed to vote. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Just now, Ekona said: Again, this is why the public shouldn’t be allowed to vote. At the very least, spin should be banned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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