Brexit again

[coldel]

In response to the OP I would probably say without going into much depth

 

Could or should TM (or any other politician) have got a better deal - depends on who you ask, for some industries the deal is a good one. The main contentious issue for me is the backstop which requires EU sign off, effectively a new article 50.

 

Should we have another referendum - people demanded a vote on leaving the EU, leave won, leave voters pushed any argument against the process back saying the people had voted, then give people the vote now we know what the withdrawal looks like. Comments from Boris like 'they can go whistle' etc. about paying money clearly were not representative of the final outcome, now we know, lets vote - the question is, what is the actual question!

 

Should parliament back her - politics is politics, many politicians will not be taking actions in the interests of the country. Economically no deal is worse than the deal, it really depends on if politics plays a bigger role than economic security

 

Should she resign - not really, nothing more can be done by anyone else given the EU have said the deal is the deal. If she goes who goes in? A JRM candidate who would push us straight to a no deal anyway and be an immediate barrier to any future discussions with the EU, or a TM fan who just continues as is and nothing changes except a load of disruption? She is though unelectable I think so maybe post next year she is moved on and damage limitation in place for the next GE

 

Should we have another election - we will, in 2022  

[marzman]

There should be another referendum in my opinion, but then i am a remainer.

 

How 52% to 48% can be considered definitive on such a massive issue is beyond me.  It's like Night vs Day... because it's night time for 5 mins longer one day, we must now go to permanent night time for the rest of our lives?  

 

If there was another referendum and the leavers won again then a) i'd eat my hat, and b) i'd accept it.  But i think if they voted again it would be more like 25% vs 75% for the remainers.

 

And if HSBC had released their advert with Richard Ayoade before the Brexit vote, it would have been a landslide for remain. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-1UNaA92fg

 

 

[Jetpilot]

Great add, i think that dude is ace 

 

If the voting system in your words was not definitive on such massive issues, i presume this time round you would want it definitive, so 75% majority, what if it wasnt, would we vote again and again and again?

 

The polls suggest a swing towards remain this time, but only by 2% over the winning margin last time. hardly definitive and to be fair, the polls got it wrong last time.

 

I think the only vote we should have now is, this deal or no deal personally!

 

 

Edited November 19, 2018 by Jetpilot

[Ekona]

There should be no extra vote. The people of this country have already proved once they’re not capable of making a reasoned decision, why give them a second go at doing the same? 

 

I voted Remain, but I’d vote Leave if we ran again tomorrow. Just on principle really, I believe that one referendum is enough and we’re not all Scottish and feel the need to keep asking the same question until we get an answer we like. 

 

Brexit was always going to be a short-term clusterf*ck. I do believe that regardless of result this country will be better off in maybe 20-30 years time, but in the immediate 10 years or so we’d be screwed. I still hold that view. 

[Stutopia]

2 hours ago, coldel said:

Should we have another election - we will, in 2022  

Having a vote after a previous vote is undemocratic.

[Irn Bru]

1 hour ago, marzman said:

There should be another referendum in my opinion, but then i am a remainer.

 

How 52% to 48% can be considered definitive on such a massive issue is beyond me.  It's like Night vs Day... because it's night time for 5 mins longer one day, we must now go to permanent night time for the rest of our lives?  

 

If there was another referendum and the leavers won again then a) i'd eat my hat, and b) i'd accept it.  But i think if they voted again it would be more like 25% vs 75% for the remainers.

 

And if HSBC had released their advert with Richard Ayoade before the Brexit vote, it would have been a landslide for remain. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-1UNaA92fg

 

 

I think it would have been the opposite tbh,  the advert was about global networking, and how we're all interlinked with preferences, if anything it shows everything globally is better. But I'm yesser  and a leaver !!.

[G1en]

6 hours ago, Jetpilot said:

The EU fishing quotas are an absolute farce Doc, throwing dead fish back into the sea because youve met your quota??? 

I now understand that famous Eric Cantona quote. why the seagulls follow the trawler, its not because they think fishermen will throw fish into the sea BUT because the seagulls know they have to throw them back because of EU quotas. Clever seagulls. 

 

I just wish the whole brexit debacle would hurry up and finish. It was always gonna be a lose/lose senario. I didnt vote and i wouldnt vote if there was another chance as i do not know enough or have access to the complexities involved and neither do most people. Like has been said before, it was a case of saying what people wanted to hear. The main problem now when you turn on the radio is most businesses still dont know how/what to plan for. 

[Maggz]

 

 

[Maggz]

2 hours ago, Ekona said:

There should be no extra vote. The people of this country have already proved once they’re not capable of making a reasoned decision, why give them a second go at doing the same? 

 

I voted Remain, but I’d vote Leave if we ran again tomorrow. Just on principle really, I believe that one referendum is enough and we’re not all Scottish and feel the need to keep asking the same question until we get an answer we like. 

 

Brexit was always going to be a short-term clusterf*ck. I do believe that regardless of result this country will be better off in maybe 20-30 years time, but in the immediate 10 years or so we’d be screwed. I still hold that view. 

But people voted based on lies, fabrications, fear of millions of immigrants coming over the uncontrolled borders, NHS collapsing, and with Cambridge Analitica targeting people with fake news. Accepting funding from abroad, which is ilegal as well, not to mention breaking funding laws by not reporting all gathered funds.

How can that be a legitimate vote?

How can we say people voted already. They didn't know what they're even voting for (apart from intolerant ones who wanted just to vote against all foreigners). 

 

Also how are we willing to swallow 2-3 ****ing decades of being worse of, for something which will maybe be better later? 

 

This is life and people's livelihood were playing with 

[Maggz]

2 hours ago, Jetpilot said:

 

I think the only vote we should have now is, this deal or no deal personally!

 

 

So vote on two things people got scammed in to and ignoring what the majority wants and what's 100% financially better for everyone in the UK? 

 

Where's the logic in that?

[Irn Bru]

One thing in all this brexit talk that NEVER GETS LOOKED AT is what is the eu going to look like in 10 years time ??. Misery, thats what. Eu army, more integration, more power to them, we'll be a vassel state alright, except we asked for it by staying in this abomination. Everybody bangs on about what the consequences will be in leaving, what about the consequences of staying,  how much are they going to demand in annual payments and power grabs. Any remainers got a lucid answer for me ??

[Maggz]

4 minutes ago, Irn Bru said:

One thing in all this brexit talk that NEVER GETS LOOKED AT is what is the eu going to look like in 10 years time ??. Misery, thats what. Eu army, more integration, more power to them, we'll be a vassel state alright, except we asked for it by staying in this abomination. Everybody bangs on about what the consequences will be in leaving, what about the consequences of staying,  how much are they going to demand in annual payments and power grabs. Any remainers got a lucid answer for me ??

I think you're infected with the good ol'British imperialism bug. Everything you've mentioned is a benefit. 

 

Let me break it down for you:

EU army - the only chance we have at competing versus the USA and China is by joining resources and utilising best areas of each country. Some are good at manufacturing, others in software, some in making mushy pea's. One country in EU cannot afford investing to a degree to compete with economies like the US and China and their insane military spend.

 

More integration: 

Economic integration brings the benefits of greater size, internal efficiency and robustness to the EU economy as a whole and to the economies of the individual Member States. This, in turn, offers opportunities for economic stability, higher growth and more employment — outcomes of direct benefit to EU citizens.

take 5 mins and read this - please just read it, don't ignore it thinking you know best (I don't, that's for sure, that's why reading is important) 

 https://www.usnews.com/opinion/world-report/articles/2017-03-24/sixty-years-later-european-integration-has-benefited-eu-countries

 

About the vassal state, talk about Borisisms... No, we'll be a member state with equal rights and benefits, no customs, no tarrifs, cheap imports and most of all, oranges from Spain you can afford.

 

And lastly, the consequences of staying are all positive actually. Even the contributions you were all lied about are not really what you think they are... The UK is the only country with an negotiated rebate (thank Thatcher for that) where 50% of paid money gets reinvested in to the UK. 

 

Power grabs.... For the love of God, what does that even mean? You do know there's a EU parliament where you need to vote on things... And if your idea sux, people won't vote. Of it's generally a good one, and helps more than yourself, it tends to have the opposite effect. There's politics as well, but we got that in the UK as well. So what power grabs?

[Stutopia]

1 hour ago, Irn Bru said:

One thing in all this brexit talk that NEVER GETS LOOKED AT is what is the eu going to look like in 10 years time ??. Misery, thats what. Eu army, more integration, more power to them, we'll be a vassel state alright, except we asked for it by staying in this abomination. Everybody bangs on about what the consequences will be in leaving, what about the consequences of staying,  how much are they going to demand in annual payments and power grabs. Any remainers got a lucid answer for me ??

I’ll have a try.

 

Personally I’m not arsed about an EU army, the sheer amount of money we waste tooling up for the [insert current rogue nation] war that’s apparently coming is a disgrace when we’ve got working people who can’t afford to eat or pensioners freezing to death. We’re lost in some sort of world police delusion that’s caused us no end of problems, rooted in “we used to run 70% of the world” nostalgia. Whether it’s a few billion in the pot here or over the water, if the Commies do invade, then we’ll be fighting alongside other Western powers anyway, we’ll just have different uniforms to one another. If it really gets out of hand, then it’ll be a very short and very nuclear holocaust. If it’s the terrorists that come for us, no amount of aircraft carriers having GB or EU bumper stickers will make the blindest bit of difference in deterring those lunatics.

 

The parts I rather like are stuff like the protections that the EU provides us from the Tories. I don’t want to go back to filthy beaches and rivers that were around when I was a kid, that came from lack of decent regulation and a “profit above all other considerations” approach to the countryside, waterways and agriculture. Improved workers rights are no bad thing either. I do also want the opportunity to go and work in other countries. I’d quite like to continue academic coordination across Europe, instead having to do all the same stuff their going to have to do, twice.

 

In terms of sovereignty/freedom/taking back control and the subsequent get rid of the foreigners rubbish that’s been emboldened by all this rabid nationalism, it has done far more to damage my pride in being English than anything multiculturalism could possibly do. I’ve certainly never been embarrassed before about being English, not like I am when Tommy Robinson or Nigel Farage starts speaking, apparently on my behalf. I remember my Grandad telling me about the Poles he worked alongside in WW2, trying to learn a few words of Polish to have a crack with them and vice versa, or the Italian he learnt fighting over there. Anyone who tells me that my Englishness is diminished because someone else on a bus is speaking Romanian, is off their rocker. It goes without saying that that’s not a dig at you Brian, I know you’re not one of the nutters, I’m speaking generally.

 

I do agree with a lot of the problems that are rightly cited with the EU. I’m certainly not for greater control than is already with the EU, or even greater payments into the pot, but at least we had a say in it prior to Brexit. Then this new deal came along, where we get the worst of both worlds. Worst of all, any money we do save (ignoring the obvious self inflicted damage to the economy that’s already underway) will go on tax breaks for the wealthy. Look at the money we wasted when we got rich on North Sea oil, chucked away in tax breaks instead of invested for the future.

 

Last but not least, if Trump thinks it’s a good idea, you know it’s because it suits his protectionist agenda for US trade. Then there’s Vlad, who’s also got a vested interest in breaking up the EU for Russia’s benefit. Anyone who thinks those two are pro Brexit because they’re looking out for the British working man, please explain why they would be?

 

If I honestly thought we’ll take our EU contributions back and invest like Norway did in the 90s, and plan for the future and invest in over burdened services, I’d be running around saying what a bloody great idea hard Brexit is. But the only people making any money out of this, are already up to their eyeballs in cash, making fortunes out of the market and currency volatility and rubbing their hands at the prospect of U.K. deregulation as we desperately try to convince businesses, that are already here now, to stay put.

[Adrian@TORQEN]

"In his article today, Mr Johnson says that he supports legislation backing a referendum – but warns that Britain’s problems will not be solved by simply leaving the EU as many of his Conservative colleagues apparently believe.
“If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and underinvestment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure,” the London Mayor says."

 

A column penned by Boris Johnson in 2013 that advised fellow ministers to stop blaming Brussels.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052646/Quitting-the-EU-wont-solve-our-problems-says-Boris-Johnson.html

 

[Irn Bru]

1 hour ago, Maggz said:

I think you're infected with the good ol'British imperialism bug. Everything you've mentioned is a benefit. 

 

Let me break it down for you:

EU army - the only chance we have at competing versus the USA and China is by joining resources and utilising best areas of each country. Some are good at manufacturing, others in software, some in making mushy pea's. One country in EU cannot afford investing to a degree to compete with economies like the US and China and their insane military spend.

 

More integration: 

Economic integration brings the benefits of greater size, internal efficiency and robustness to the EU economy as a whole and to the economies of the individual Member States. This, in turn, offers opportunities for economic stability, higher growth and more employment — outcomes of direct benefit to EU citizens.

take 5 mins and read this - please just read it, don't ignore it thinking you know best (I don't, that's for sure, that's why reading is important) 

 https://www.usnews.com/opinion/world-report/articles/2017-03-24/sixty-years-later-european-integration-has-benefited-eu-countries

 

About the vassal state, talk about Borisisms... No, we'll be a member state with equal rights and benefits, no customs, no tarrifs, cheap imports and most of all, oranges from Spain you can afford.

 

And lastly, the consequences of staying are all positive actually. Even the contributions you were all lied about are not really what you think they are... The UK is the only country with an negotiated rebate (thank Thatcher for that) where 50% of paid money gets reinvested in to the UK. 

 

Power grabs.... For the love of God, what does that even mean? You do know there's a EU parliament where you need to vote on things... And if your idea sux, people won't vote. Of it's generally a good one, and helps more than yourself, it tends to have the opposite effect. There's politics as well, but we got that in the UK as well. So what power grabs?

Had a read at that, hell of a lot "could's"  and "estimates" involved in the author's write up of the eu. A bit like Osbourne's predictions of if we voted leave !!.

So we get a vote on things, big deal, it'll only be scuppered by the drunkerd who can't put a pair of shoes on. As long as that halfwit is a main player I'll never be convinced of the eu's integrity.

Power grabs ??, none you say, have you watched the eu parliamentary debates lately ??, 

Sleekit positioning of jobs for their boys is pretty much their game.

Integration and benefits to us all, really, have you researched how many British factorys have been moved to the eu, with eu grants, 000's of jobs gone abroad, businesses that have been here for decades lost because of eu grants. Fishing, steel, Ford van production all gone to other eu members, what industries have the eu paid directly to setup in Britain and create 000's of jobs here ??. What about Turkey getting membership, Oh that'll never happen, yeah just like the eu army was never going to happen. Turkey isn't even a European country, but they'll let them in. The only reason the eu want Britain is because we're a cash cow, nothing else.

[Irn Bru]

52 minutes ago, Adrian@TORQEN said:

"In his article today, Mr Johnson says that he supports legislation backing a referendum – but warns that Britain’s problems will not be solved by simply leaving the EU as many of his Conservative colleagues apparently believe.
“If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and underinvestment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure,” the London Mayor says."

 

A column penned by Boris Johnson in 2013 that advised fellow ministers to stop blaming Brussels.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10052646/Quitting-the-EU-wont-solve-our-problems-says-Boris-Johnson.html

 

Adrian, any chance of you're own input instead of just copying and pasting other people's words, genuine question.

[Irn Bru]

1 hour ago, SuperStu said:

I’ll have a try.

 

Personally I’m not arsed about an EU army, the sheer amount of money we waste tooling up for the [insert current rogue nation] war that’s apparently coming is a disgrace when we’ve got working people who can’t afford to eat or pensioners freezing to death. We’re lost in some sort of world police delusion that’s caused us no end of problems, rooted in “we used to run 70% of the world” nostalgia. Whether it’s a few billion in the pot here or over the water, if the Commies do invade, then we’ll be fighting alongside other Western powers anyway, we’ll just have different uniforms to one another. If it really gets out of hand, then it’ll be a very short and very nuclear holocaust. If it’s the terrorists that come for us, no amount of aircraft carriers having GB or EU bumper stickers will make the blindest bit of difference in deterring those lunatics.

 

The parts I rather like are stuff like the protections that the EU provides us from the Tories. I don’t want to go back to filthy beaches and rivers that were around when I was a kid, that came from lack of decent regulation and a “profit above all other considerations” approach to the countryside, waterways and agriculture. Improved workers rights are no bad thing either. I do also want the opportunity to go and work in other countries. I’d quite like to continue academic coordination across Europe, instead having to do all the same stuff their going to have to do, twice.

 

In terms of sovereignty/freedom/taking back control and the subsequent get rid of the foreigners rubbish that’s been emboldened by all this rabid nationalism, it has done far more to damage my pride in being English than anything multiculturalism could possibly do. I’ve certainly never been embarrassed before about being English, not like I am when Tommy Robinson or Nigel Farage starts speaking, apparently on my behalf. I remember my Grandad telling me about the Poles he worked alongside in WW2, trying to learn a few words of Polish to have a crack with them and vice versa, or the Italian he learnt fighting over there. Anyone who tells me that my Englishness is diminished because someone else on a bus is speaking Romanian, is off their rocker. It goes without saying that that’s not a dig at you Brian, I know you’re not one of the nutters, I’m speaking generally.

 

I do agree with a lot of the problems that are rightly cited with the EU. I’m certainly not for greater control than is already with the EU, or even greater payments into the pot, but at least we had a say in it prior to Brexit. Then this new deal came along, where we get the worst of both worlds. Worst of all, any money we do save (ignoring the obvious self inflicted damage to the economy that’s already underway) will go on tax breaks for the wealthy. Look at the money we wasted when we got rich on North Sea oil, chucked away in tax breaks instead of invested for the future.

 

Last but not least, if Trump thinks it’s a good idea, you know it’s because it suits his protectionist agenda for US trade. Then there’s Vlad, who’s also got a vested interest in breaking up the EU for Russia’s benefit. Anyone who thinks those two are pro Brexit because they’re looking out for the British working man, please explain why they would be?

 

If I honestly thought we’ll take our EU contributions back and invest like Norway did in the 90s, and plan for the future and invest in over burdened services, I’d be running around saying what a bloody great idea hard Brexit is. But the only people making any money out of this, are already up to their eyeballs in cash, making fortunes out of the market and currency volatility and rubbing their hands at the prospect of U.K. deregulation as we desperately try to convince businesses, that are already here now, to stay put.

Some great stuff there Stu, but do you really believe the eu hierarchy are any better than Trump. Love him or hate him, he delivers on his election promises. Sure he leads a divided country, but what country isn't when it comes to politics.  I just can't trust the eu  politicians, their worse than our own !!.

Ah the oil revenues, please don't get me started on that subject lol.

And just for the record, I have no problem with legal migrants, every country in the world is built off the back of migration and continues to be built with them.

[Ekona]

8 hours ago, Maggz said:

But people voted based on lies, fabrications, fear of millions of immigrants coming over the uncontrolled borders, NHS collapsing, and with Cambridge Analitica targeting people with fake news. Accepting funding from abroad, which is ilegal as well, not to mention breaking funding laws by not reporting all gathered funds.

How can that be a legitimate vote?

How can we say people voted already. They didn't know what they're even voting for (apart from intolerant ones who wanted just to vote against all foreigners). 

 

Also how are we willing to swallow 2-3 ****ing decades of being worse of, for something which will maybe be better later? 

 

This is life and people's livelihood were playing with 

I can say we voted because we did. There was enough information out there to make a reasoned choice, however I believe that most people did not bother to avail themselves of that (and that goes for both sides!). It was no different to every single General Election, where every time millions of people choose who to run the country based on nothing more than their parents hating a woman who hasn’t been in power in a generation, or because there was once a rough winter even further back when people went on strike a bit. It’s pathetic, and is exactly why the current political system doesn’t really work. 

 

People are idiots. What we really need is a benevolent dictatorship, not more votes. 

 

[Jetpilot]

8 hours ago, Maggz said:

But people voted based on lies, fabrications, fear of millions of immigrants coming over the uncontrolled borders, NHS collapsing, and with Cambridge Analitica targeting people with fake news. Accepting funding from abroad, which is ilegal as well, not to mention breaking funding laws by not reporting all gathered funds.

How can that be a legitimate vote?

How can we say people voted already. They didn't know what they're even voting for (apart from intolerant ones who wanted just to vote against all foreigners). 

 

8 hours ago, Maggz said:

So vote on two things people got scammed in to and ignoring what the majority wants and what's 100% financially better for everyone in the UK? 

 

Where's the logic in that?

 

You are equally as guilty as those very people you condemn above by believing the press propaganda that the majority voted by being scammed. I dont doubt a few did fall hook line and sinker, i am not naive but as Ekona says, it went both ways.

 

We are not ignoring what the majority wants, they wanted to leave and as i asked Marzman, what do we do keep doing voting until everyone is happy or there is a definitive majority (which will never happen), as mention after "the deal" the polls suggest a 54 to 46 (and we know the polls can be wrong, based on before and the same number voting, thats only another half a million people above the majority last time, is that enough of a majority to be definitive in your eyes, no matter what you "want" to believe, its just not the case, the country is still very much roughly divided on this one.

[coldel]

Its a shame people didn't vote because they didn't know what to believe, ultimately you will never have the full facts about anything be it a referendum, GE or local elections (all sides claim perfection under their regime right). That nearly a third of the country didn't put their vote to this but I have yet to meet a single person who doesn't have an impassioned view on staying or leaving.  

 

That aside, we have activated article 50, we have voted to leave, thats in the past and probably best left there. 

 

Lets be honest, the majority of people saw the situation where we are now coming except the most idealistic people like JRM who are just career climbers and using this as their vehicle. We are negotiating a withdrawal from one of the most powerful economic trading blocs on the planet, they have all the leverage in that half our trade is with the EU, around 5-10% of the EU is with us, its basic business and no surprise we have been pushed to the position we are today. Whats also interesting is that clearly we have had to spend a lot of time negotiating emotive industries like fishing etc. despite it being such a tiny part of our countries welfare - clearly to try and keep the population happy around the idea of sovereignty rather than any sort of economic benefit. The fact that the CBI have generally agreed on the exit deal shows that economically it could be viable and probably wasn't the worst case scenario but one that is acceptable given the situation we are in. The issue is a political one for me, do we allow the EU power of veto on the indefinite backstop, its a huge point as effectively it gives the EU power over the trading arrangements.

[Maggz]

7 hours ago, Irn Bru said:

 

So we get a vote on things, big deal, it'll only be scuppered by the drunkerd who can't put a pair of shoes on. 

Well not anymore, obviously we don't like to operate in democratic unions because we don't get the things we want, and have to rely on voting systems. I guess we're too used to dictating what others have to do. 

 

7 hours ago, Irn Bru said:

Power grabs ??, none you say, have you watched the eu parliamentary debates lately ??, 

What kind of an argument is that? Let me do the same...have you ever watched our parliament? Bigly power grabbing and taking positions for themselves. Gove, Bobo, Farage,...

 

7 hours ago, Irn Bru said:

have you researched how many British factorys have been moved to the eu, with eu grants, 000's of jobs gone abroad,businesses that have been here for decades 

So you're mad at the EU, that owners of privately owned companies moved abroad because the UK couldn't provide the same economic and working environment?  Interesting logic.

 

7 hours ago, Irn Bru said:

Fishing, steel, Ford van production all gone to other eu members, what industries have the eu paid directly to setup in Britain and create 000's of jobs here

That's like the EU crying and trying to punish the UK for taking over the European financial markets in the City. Some countries are good at cheap production (E Europe), others at finances. Being in the union means we all benefit from the cheap prices and can afford more stuff because if it. 

 

7 hours ago, Irn Bru said:

What about Turkey getting membership, Oh that'll never happen, yeah just like the eu army was never going to happen.

You are absolutely oblivious when it comes to international politics. Turkey will never get in. It has the largest uncontrollable border of all "potential" members, is the key smuggling route into EU because of it, is officially still at war with Greece over Cyprus (meaning Greece will veto their membership as long as Cyprus isn't returned) meaning, they will NEVER get in. 

 

7 hours ago, Irn Bru said:

The only reason the eu want Britain is because we're a cash cow, nothing else.

When the EU took in Britain, we were a toothless bumb in dire need of help, with a shrinking economy. Read a book or two buddy. On your own countries history and on the basic principles on which the EU was based when it was formed. 

Absolutely clueless.

[Maggz]

7 hours ago, Irn Bru said:

Love him or hate him, he delivers on his election promises

Yup, he took away affordable health care from millions who can't afford the basic help now. 

He also pulled out of a international deal only because he had to be against everything Obama did in order to get the republican vote. 

A person who in the 90s told Oprah I believe, that if he ever run for office he'd run as a republican, as they're too stupid to get he's playing them. A person who's been a democrat his whole life. 

What's not to love?

Oh...and a person who branded a whole nation as rapists and murders, and promised a wall he knew he can't afford only to get the crazy right vote. What did I forget? Oh and he didn't want to get wet so he didn't pay respects to the vets and fallen soldiers. Lovely leader indeed. They're so lucky

[Maggz]

1 hour ago, Ekona said:

I can say we voted because we did. There was enough information out there to make a reasoned choice, however I believe that most people did not bother to avail themselves of that (and that goes for both sides!). It was no different to every single General Election, where every time millions of people choose who to run the country based on nothing more than their parents hating a woman who hasn’t been in power in a generation, or because there was once a rough winter even further back when people went on strike a bit. It’s pathetic, and is exactly why the current political system doesn’t really work. 

 

People are idiots. What we really need is a benevolent dictatorship, not more votes. 

 

What information? Fishing quotas... Anything else? Did the whole country votenl leave because of cod's and crabs? 

Also I know you're trying to be funny but some people came from places with actual benevolent dictatorships, and let me tell you... It's not fun or funny at all

[Maggz]

1 hour ago, Jetpilot said:

 

 

You are equally as guilty as those very people you condemn above by believing the press propaganda that the majority voted by being scammed. I dont doubt a few did fall hook line and sinker, i am not naive but as Ekona says, it went both ways.

 

We are not ignoring what the majority wants, they wanted to leave and as i asked Marzman, what do we do keep doing voting until everyone is happy or there is a definitive majority (which will never happen), as mention after "the deal" the polls suggest a 54 to 46 (and we know the polls can be wrong, based on before and the same number voting, thats only another half a million people above the majority last time, is that enough of a majority to be definitive in your eyes, no matter what you "want" to believe, its just not the case, the country is still very much roughly divided on this one.

No one proved yet the remain campaign broke every single election law out there, that American money and influence was spent on it like it was on Leave, not to mention the Russian money as well. How can you compare those two sides as equal is beyond me. Full investigation, punishments for ALL who broke laws, annulling the referendum for funding, fraud, and any other allegations which get proven, and a new vote. That would make the new vote, the first one that was legal. Unless laws dont matter, because your side won?

Edited November 20, 2018 by Maggz

[coldel]

There is so much at stake here I also think we are missing the point on this withdrawal in that its not all in our hands also - we could see member states push back on it as well.