Early ban on New Petrol and Diesel Vehicles

[davey_83]

Both ev and ice vehicles produce emissions during running, building and disposal. Only ev running emissions are greater controlled than ice emissions. 

[G1en]

I agree @Ekona i didnt mean to imply going EV is the right thing to do, I just meant going greener in general to help the planet regardless of global warming. Whether EVs turn out to be the saviour, im on the fence like most people on the forum. What i am trying to get at is the mass consumer market need a serious tempting offer to change so until a nissan leaf is cheaper than a micra or the teslas have a 10 min charge point at every petrol station and car park its gonna be a long slow uptake. 

[Daisyduke]

Would like to know the tow capacity of most electric vehicles and ranges at rated weights. 

 

Will never be able to get rid of lorries.

Ships have no regs when 12 miles out so What about them?

 

Where does all the power come from? I work in a biomass power station and we get 10 trucks in per day for fuel stock. 

 

Think we are going a little the wrong way, but every little helps.

[Jetpilot]

16 hours ago, davey_83 said:

Both ev and ice vehicles produce emissions during running, building and disposal. Only ev running emissions are greater controlled than ice emissions. 

 

So show me conclusive proof that ev's from production to end are more environmental friendly.

 

I agree with G1en, you cannot argue the average temps are up, however, the planet has been like that (up and down) long before we smoking around in cars and industry was about and dont think again there is any conclusive evidence its solely the fault of "us".

 

Saying that, I cant remember what programme i saw it on but they were talking about the co2 levels that the volcano in iceland put up, it was horrific, however, it actually worked out less than the planes that were grounded during that time, if you want to look at cutting vehicle emissions its got to universal as Daisy says, no good us spinning around on the ground when the highest polluters are still in the air.

 

I just cant help but think motorists are the easy target as ever, green taxes and emissions taxes will get higher and then what when we are all in ev's. whats going to fill the void left from no petrol and diesel sales, oh of course, there will be duty on electric, its the only possible outcome. 

 

 

[davey_83]

Show me one whereby an ICE vehicles life cycle is more efficient. I don't mean that, it's just incredibly easy to say.

 

It's obvious if you have cars all over the place producing emissions and more so in grossly populated areas, compared to a power station away from populated areas allowing for greater control of emissions.

 

Even if ev's weren't more environmentally friendly, the consideration of waste is worth mentioning also. Clearly brake discs and pads last alot longer, no need to manufacture, package and ship engine oil, oil air and fuel filters, exhaust system, clutchs, dmf, gearbox and diff oils, spark and glow plugs all your auxiliary components. All those items multiplied by all the millions of vehicles in the UK alone. Again all the fossil fuels need to haul all that lot all over the country in greater volumes that the SMR for a full ev's and yeah to me it's pretty obvious the in life 'foot print' should be less.

 

Very possibly there's a reason almost every manufacturer is offering hybrid or producing/has plans for full ev's. Yes to make money *what business isnt, however something will only sell if the consumer wants it.

Edited October 21, 2018 by davey_83

[Jay84]

It's actually pointless putting rear discs on electric cars, they'd be better with drums, I've seen so many come through our doors with knackered rear discs through corrosion and then splitting. 

[coldel]

I think also we are just at the very beginning of the EV development in relative terms. I was out having a few beers last week with a guy heavily involved in renewable energy and it was an interesting chat. Many power companies moving to renewables and their technology advances are huge, lots of developments around batteries i.e. batteries as we know it now are not the future, in ten years a battery as we know it will be gone and something much better would be in its place. Technology improvement around collecting, transferring, storing and distributing energy is changing at quite a frantic pace in the energy sector. 

 

I think for your average commuting, plod along, shopping run car an EV is quite acceptable, which actually is the majority of drivers out there. The main problems are price of EVs is still well above average and out of reach for the majority affecting take up, infrastructure isnt accelerating at required rate and the whole perception of the EV still scares most people. 

 

A model 3 is still going to be more expensive than the average price of a car, other manufacturers are looking at Teslas horrendous P&L which is propped up by the US government and treading carefully. Like any business they wont jump in two footed until there is a market there, this is what sales looked like up to last year - dieselgate and other government decisions smashing into diesel sales but people are still shifting to petrol not just EV

 

 

The government has a massive role to play but are clearly in these times of penny pinching not putting the finance into the infrastructure, their policy is generally to allow private companies to lead but no one is stepping up. They need to support companies in building methods of charging cars, doesnt have to be a cable from a house, could be a pack that is charged in the house then taken out to your car parked up the road and plugged in or whatever. But like our favourite chicken and egg, who is going to invest when sales are so low relative to a wider market.

 

Also I think companies need to invest in showing EV can work for your average joe plodding about - the fear of just running out of electric is always there. What if for instance there was a service like the AA but for supercharging cars stuck out on the road if in the event people do run out of juice for instance. 

 

Anyway, just some points of view me and this chap discussed the other night...that I remember...beer permitting...although he did accept my argument that ultimately if you are a proper car enthusiast the ICE is a better option 

[Andy_Muxlow]

Sort of off topic a little but along the same lines. Well batteries anyway, I work in the powered access industry. They have been looking into the different types of batteries to power machines, we are still heavily using lead acid batteries. But some companies have been looking into the use of lithium or li-ion batteries.  But they are so expensive they wont use them. as it is a 19 foot scissor lift may be hired out for lets say £100 per week. if they used li-ion batteries that hire would cost at least £400 per week. The companies know people would not want to pay this price...

[coldel]

...and to add, the government and local councils need to sort their politics out. How we can have an ULEZ being extended around west and south west London at the same time they sign off on an extra runway at Heathrow to fly an extra 700 planes over the same area just shows how being 'Green' only suits them when they want to. 

[Jetpilot]

19 hours ago, davey_83 said:

Show me one whereby an ICE vehicles life cycle is more efficient. I don't mean that, it's just incredibly easy to say.

 

It's obvious if you have cars all over the place producing emissions and more so in grossly populated areas, compared to a power station away from populated areas allowing for greater control of emissions.

 

Even if ev's weren't more environmentally friendly, the consideration of waste is worth mentioning also. Clearly brake discs and pads last alot longer, no need to manufacture, package and ship engine oil, oil air and fuel filters, exhaust system, clutchs, dmf, gearbox and diff oils, spark and glow plugs all your auxiliary components. All those items multiplied by all the millions of vehicles in the UK alone. Again all the fossil fuels need to haul all that lot all over the country in greater volumes that the SMR for a full ev's and yeah to me it's pretty obvious the in life 'foot print' should be less.

 

Very possibly there's a reason almost every manufacturer is offering hybrid or producing/has plans for full ev's. Yes to make money *what business isnt, however something will only sell if the consumer wants it.

Sorry Davey, thats typical gangzoom, you just believe it is the case but absolutely nothing factual to back it up and the bit about power stations being away from populated areas is just nonsense, pollution is pollution, no matter where its created. I obviously believe differently about the environmental impact of an ev, but have never said its fact and am more than happy to be proved wrong, but am not going to believe you just because you say its "obvious", give me some data.

 

I seem to recall modern cars are heavily made from recycled materials and recycling of dead cars is also high, can the same be said for ev's, what about when batteries die, we all know the problems with battery disposal, good for the environment, definitely not!

 

The reason manufacturers are producing them is, they have to to meet "emissions" targets, supply/demand and profit, at what point do any of those include being environmentally friendly, i refer you to diesel and with the latest emissions scandals, its pretty clear the manufacturers dont give a flying f about the environment.

[coldel]

2 hours ago, Andy_Muxlow said:

Sort of off topic a little but along the same lines. Well batteries anyway, I work in the powered access industry. They have been looking into the different types of batteries to power machines, we are still heavily using lead acid batteries. But some companies have been looking into the use of lithium or li-ion batteries.  But they are so expensive they wont use them. as it is a 19 foot scissor lift may be hired out for lets say £100 per week. if they used li-ion batteries that hire would cost at least £400 per week. The companies know people would not want to pay this price...

 

From my basic understanding of Lithium is that prices have skyrocketed lately because of supply and demand - car makers demanding it but the supply industry not reacting to it. Bizarrely Lithium mainly comes from a brine process out of South America, those countries have seen demand multiply hundreds of times over but havent increased their own capacity to match it. They are reacting now, as soon as lithium supplies become more available prices will fall inevitably again. I think from memory its Chile that has the biggest supplies of Lithium, play their cards right and they could be the next Saudi Arabia of the energy world..! 

[davey_83]

2 hours ago, Jetpilot said:

Sorry Davey, thats typical gangzoom, you just believe it is the case but absolutely nothing factual to back it up and the bit about power stations being away from populated areas is just nonsense, pollution is pollution, no matter where its created. I obviously believe differently about the environmental impact of an ev, but have never said its fact and am more than happy to be proved wrong, but am not going to believe you just because you say its "obvious", give me some data.

 

I seem to recall modern cars are heavily made from recycled materials and recycling of dead cars is also high, can the same be said for ev's, what about when batteries die, we all know the problems with battery disposal, good for the environment, definitely not!

 

The reason manufacturers are producing them is, they have to to meet "emissions" targets, supply/demand and profit, at what point do any of those include being environmentally friendly, i refer you to diesel and with the latest emissions scandals, its pretty clear the manufacturers dont give a flying f about the environment.

Regarding SMR, please see the below data. Pretty clear which would have less impact on the environment. I don't drive an EV, however I am generally able to see the wood for the trees.

 

 

[GranTurismoEra]

I remember seeing back in the day when I started driving in 2008. Joe Bloggs floors it to overtake a petrol car and all the black soot coming out the exhaust. I remember saying to a mate there is no way the government can think this is clean fuel. Low and behold 8 years later emissions scandal and diesel fumes being bad for the human respiratory system.

 

I agree that disposal and energy required to produce the batteries cause a lot more pollution than people think. I mean where to the old batteries end up?

[coldel]

57 minutes ago, GranTurismoEra said:

I remember seeing back in the day when I started driving in 2008. Joe Bloggs floors it to overtake a petrol car and all the black soot coming out the exhaust. I remember saying to a mate there is no way the government can think this is clean fuel. Low and behold 8 years later emissions scandal and diesel fumes being bad for the human respiratory system.

 

I agree that disposal and energy required to produce the batteries cause a lot more pollution than people think. I mean where to the old batteries end up?

The government never said diesel was clean fuel, the global directive was to reduce CO2 emissions which were prevalent in petrol cars - switching to diesel cars achieved this goal. Surely its clear that anything that emits pollution in the immediate vicinity of human life is going to have some sort of detrimental effect. 

 

There will need to be a process for old batteries, again I am by no means an expert but Lithium can be recycled into other uses (happy to be told otherwise) once it has expired there just is no infrastructure for doing this at scale at the moment. 

[Jetpilot]

1 hour ago, davey_83 said:

Regarding SMR, please see the below data. Pretty clear which would have less impact on the environment. I don't drive an EV, however I am generally able to see the wood for the trees.

 

 

One small snippet of a lifetime of a car from production to death, so it costs less to service, it goes absolutely nowhere near the bigger picture which is what i am asking, all that does show is why you are justifying it in your head, show me some real world data, start to finish, put the discussion to bed, its pretty easy, i am happy to be proved wrong, but please dont just give me fragmented pieces of info that you "think" makes something the truth, show me the data to support your side of the fence, i am happy to jump over and sing the praises if you can. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Jetpilot

[GranTurismoEra]

2 hours ago, coldel said:

The government never said diesel was clean fuel, the global directive was to reduce CO2 emissions which were prevalent in petrol cars - switching to diesel cars achieved this goal. Surely its clear that anything that emits pollution in the immediate vicinity of human life is going to have some sort of detrimental effect. 

 

There will need to be a process for old batteries, again I am by no means an expert but Lithium can be recycled into other uses (happy to be told otherwise) once it has expired there just is no infrastructure for doing this at scale at the moment. 

Ive heard the term "clean diesel" used in the past either by manufacturers or diesel retailers. I dont know maybe I was hearing things or hallucinating at the time. 

 

Directive created by government ministers to reduce emissions. Fair play. Lots of people bought diesels. That eggy smell at petrol stations was commonplace. 

 

If the lithium batteries can be recycled in an "environmentally friendly" and humane manner then its all good. 

 

Tbh as an IT guy I have no issue with EV, Hybrid etc. I drive a Hybrid and Im all for full electric or integrated motor assist if it helps the environment. As long as they arent forcing everyone to buy EV and ditch big V6 V8 V10 and V12 engines then a choice is good for everyone. 

 

We just need better pricing on EV

[Jay84]

I'm not going to quote it, as both Jetpilot and Davey have quoted the big price and don't want to fill the page, but Davey, the only things on that page that don't change between ICE and EV is the filters. Tyres, brakes, s+s will all still wear out. Plus things like CV boots will perish, wheel bearings will become rough etc. Most manufacturers build the bearing into the hub now, more waste  but less labour. Oil costs garages about 2-3 pounds a litre depending on grade and ash quantity, your VAG only needs it changing every 20K miles. How much would a replacement set of batteries cost? What would cost more: The filters changed in the life of the battery, or the new battery?

[Jetpilot]

Just as an addition with the mention of renewable energy, its far from being the future (at present) the tech isnt even close. I have just built a house and every new home as to have some form of renewable energy, most people opt for pv panels, if i have a 2.5kw panel on my roof that would save me circa £360 over a year, sounds good, however the cost of the panels is £8k,  so 22 years to pay it off and i cant help but think in 22 years they will be obsolete and broke.

 

I am not against any of this stuff, ev's included, but to keep stating "its the future" is just so blinkered its borderline insane.

[Jay84]

It was the same when double glazing first came out, it cost more than you'd ever save. The only people who benefited were the ones who bought your house of you ever sold it.

[coldel]

3 hours ago, Jetpilot said:

Just as an addition with the mention of renewable energy, its far from being the future (at present) the tech isnt even close. I have just built a house and every new home as to have some form of renewable energy, most people opt for pv panels, if i have a 2.5kw panel on my roof that would save me circa £360 over a year, sounds good, however the cost of the panels is £8k,  so 22 years to pay it off and i cant help but think in 22 years they will be obsolete and broke.

 

I am not against any of this stuff, ev's included, but to keep stating "its the future" is just so blinkered its borderline insane.

I guess its a point of how much do you generate on site vs via the energy companies. Scottish Power now generates all its electricity via wind power and announced this week they are investing in solar. Forcing people to buy solar panels on houses is not really sensible when energy companies can purchase at scale for much less. Its a shame the government spins such a negative story around energy companies around pricing - they don't tell you that they force energy companies to reinvest most of their profit into developing renewables of course leaving the companies having to charge more to stay afloat - but that wouldnt suit politicians eh easier for them to say 'hey we are going to cap those robbing energy suppliers' 

 

I would say the future is not now but we cannot sit around and wait, which is why fears about lithium supply etc are a bit of a red herring as of course demand goes up, supply goes up, then 40 years down the line something else is invented to replace it. But we kind of do need to do keep innovating, changing, moving forwards when the opportunity arises. 

 

All that said, I would never trade in my ICE for an EV for my fun car just see ourselves as the lucky ones who still get to enjoy them whilst they are still around.

[gangzoom]

9 hours ago, Jay84 said:

It was the same when double glazing first came out, it cost more than you'd ever save. The only people who benefited were the ones who bought your house of you ever sold it.

 

The previous owners of our current house fitted a 4KW solar PV setup. This summer we generated more electricity than we use in a whole year excluding charging the car - on top we get paid 14p per kWh for every kWh generated. Even this week I'm seeing 10-20kWh generated on a non cloudy day, thats enough for our use including charging the car.

 

Next year we'll be getting a battery storage system, so in the summer we'll be nearly 'off grid' even with charging the car. In winter we'll be able to time shift our entire electrical demand to cheap off peak electricty.

 

When the roof needs doing I'll 100% be looking into more solar PV capacity. Shame small wind turbines need planning permission, as with a big enough solar PV setup and microturbine I reckon we go even shift some gas heating use to eletric heat pumps - But that does have a massive initial cost, and the boiler is barely 3 years old so makes no sense at all to replace.

 

Prices of solar PV will come down, as will battery storage. Just like a flushing toilet, central heating solar PV/home battery setups will become the norm so some point.

 

Actual EV use for getting from A to B not even worth disscussing. 40K now covered in EVs since 2015, just come back from a 890 mile family road trip to France in the EV. It was so easy next year we're aiming for lake Como.

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by gangzoom

[davey_83]

@Jetpilot I'd say you've either done a small bit of background into life costs of an ev compared with an ice vehicle OR you haven't. If you have you therefore must be confident that this information isn't forth coming and the ev/ice data that you so crave actual isn't there as possibly not enough time has passed to allow for fair compassion.

 

If you haven't well then your beliefs are no more founded than my own as you haven't done any background in seeking out this 'data' and you are therefore happy to believe what you want. 

 

Data, pictures and documents can be forged and even if ones were present, you don't have to means to go away and test them yourself anyways. Therefore you either believe blindly facts and figures from government/government funded university 'independent' analysis or you believe in your own ideas 'possibly safer' 

 

In short, you say on your unfounded side of the fence and I'll say on mine. 

[GranTurismoEra]

@gangzoom you mentioned small wind turbines and I almost laughed out loud. Not because of the idea of having a big turbine fan in your garden. But the fact you need planning permission to set one up. Welcome to the UK.....

 

In some countries no one cares...Love red tape

[ilogikal1]

7 hours ago, gangzoom said:

 just come back from a 890 mile family road trip to France in the EV.

I wondered where you’d been for the last few months...

 

[gangzoom]

2 hours ago, ilogikal1 said:

I wondered where you’d been for the last few months...

 

Been too busy driving on roads like these :).