370Z Price Tanking?!

[Jetpilot]

16 minutes ago, HRAB said:

I think you are mixing current demand with the speculated demand that we are talking about. 

 

I’m not suggesting a 370 is going to be an NSX “like” future classic. (Damn I want an NSX now). Purely talking about that I don’t think the 370 will hit the same low as the 350. I’ve not looked at how many HRs were sold in comparison to the others. What proportion of HRs make up the 350s currently on road?

No i am just looking at the history of pricing over many models and given examples as has Doc (s13 to s14), there is absolutely no reason to think the 370z is going to completely defy this, its nothing special, sorry. 

12 minutes ago, davey_83 said:

 It's not a far superior car. 

In your opinion, as obviously the majority think it is, which is all thats important with regards to values, as even the cheapest is at least twice the price of what you can get a 350z for of the same age and in some cases 5 times +, when not so long ago it was only a couple of grand away if not less.  

 

Enough from me on the subject 

 

 

[davey_83]

Yes but price when new was 40k, a good fair wack more than a 350z in 2004....... Like comparing directly the price of a 09 Focus ST and a same yr Golf R a glance. 

 

From 8mins for giggles....

 

 

Edited August 4, 2018 by davey_83

[Ekona]

You do realise that those Best Motoring vids are the equivalent of a Top Gear challenge? 

 

You say say you’ve sat behind an M3, have you never driven one? It’s dangerousiy close to perfection for the money, only the brakes let it down. The chassis control is sublime. Honestly, I love the 350 but the M3 is better in every way outside of looks. 

[nissanman312]

1 hour ago, Ekona said:

In every measurable way, they are. Better chassis, better engine, better gearbox, faster point to point and round corners, higher quality parts etc. 

 

You our may not prefer it personally because generic BMW, but it’s the better car. 

And a lot more money so it's all relative 

 

[Ekona]

It’s really not. Better is better, regardless. Especially now both cars are very affordable...

[Jetpilot]

Davey we are not discussing new values, we are discussing trends in values and what makes a car depreciate and appreciate and there is nothing to suggest a 370z wont depreciate to current 350 values, as said elsewhere, its a mass produced japanese car with no outstanding features or following and that is what drives the market (see m3), not what came before it and its respective values.

 

Its fairly clear neither you or hrab want to accept some good examples of history or any supporting facts so little point going round in circles.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Jetpilot

[nissanman312]

59 minutes ago, Ekona said:

It’s really not. Better is better, regardless. Especially now both cars are very affordable...

Agreed better is better but in most cases that comes at a premium that people can't afford so chose what they can afford me included 

 I didn't chose a 370 because I wanted one over a Porsche I chose one because I didn't want an older higher mileage Porsche/bmw/audi in my budget

That's what I meant by relative you have what you can afford  

 

[davey_83]

Completely hear what you say Dan, I've not driven one however if an M3 had to make do with 60hp less would it be able to keep up with a 350z round a track like the above? Obviously not, so how can it in performance terms be far superior? 

 

Just trying to understand your comments from a performance POV. 

 

[HRAB]

3 hours ago, Jetpilot said:

Davey we are not discussing new values, we are discussing trends in values and what makes a car depreciate and appreciate and there is nothing to suggest a 370z wont depreciate to current 350 values, as said elsewhere, its a mass produced japanese car with no outstanding features or following and that is what drives the market (see m3), not what came before it and its respective values.

 

Its fairly clear neither you or hrab want to accept some good examples of history or any supporting facts so little point going round in circles.

Got no problem with stats being used to help put your opinion forward mate. That is what it is though, an opinion....not a fact. None of us can see the future!

 

I’ve got no problem with the examples you used to get your point across. I don’t necassarily agree that those are what is going to happen in this situation. In fairness Davey didn’t agree with my point of view either so probably isn’t right to club him with me 

[Jetpilot]

Absolutely fair comment, it is an opinion, but its an opinion supported by a long history of factual statistics and market values/trends thats available to us all to see with nothing to suggest otherwise, youve already been surprised in your own words (hence the thread about prices tanking), maybe its all worth a 2nd thought rather than be surprised again. 

 

 

 

 

[Ekona]

13 hours ago, davey_83 said:

Completely hear what you say Dan, I've not driven one however if an M3 had to make do with 60hp less would it be able to keep up with a 350z round a track like the above? Obviously not, so how can it in performance terms be far superior? 

 

Just trying to understand your comments from a performance POV. 

 

Assuming the car weights were the same, and the power levels were the same, then yes the M3 would be quicker. It's the chassis that will do it, and in terms of feel the E46 is one of the best and most neutral cars I've ever driven (and given how bloody good the Z33 is, that's high praise!). It's likely the driver in front of you was crap, but then you also don't know how hard he was pushing or whether the car was 100% or level of experience etc. I refer back to the video I posted some years back of me in an MR2 all over the arse of a 360 at Anglesey: Now there's no way that's down to the car, it's got to be down to the driver. Trackdays are a terrible way of comparing cars unless you're willing to swap keys with someone else to do back to back runs.

 

And that S54 is one of the all-time great engines. The DE (or even HR) cannot get anywhere close to it, it's like comparing a filet mignon with a Big Mac.

 

Keep everything the same including drivers, track, day, weather etc and the E46 M3 will be quicker. More enjoyable? Perhaps, certainly I think so but there's an awfully good case for the 350Z to be equally or more so. I personally wouldn't buy an E46 over a 350Z, but I won't argue it's the better car. 

[davey_83]

42 minutes ago, Ekona said:

Assuming the car weights were the same, and the power levels were the same, then yes the M3 would be quicker. It's the chassis that will do it, and in terms of feel the E46 is one of the best and most neutral cars I've ever driven (and given how bloody good the Z33 is, that's high praise!). It's likely the driver in front of you was crap, but then you also don't know how hard he was pushing or whether the car was 100% or level of experience etc. I refer back to the video I posted some years back of me in an MR2 all over the arse of a 360 at Anglesey: Now there's no way that's down to the car, it's got to be down to the driver. Trackdays are a terrible way of comparing cars unless you're willing to swap keys with someone else to do back to back runs.

 

And that S54 is one of the all-time great engines. The DE (or even HR) cannot get anywhere close to it, it's like comparing a filet mignon with a Big Mac.

 

Keep everything the same including drivers, track, day, weather etc and the E46 M3 will be quicker. More enjoyable? Perhaps, certainly I think so but there's an awfully good case for the 350Z to be equally or more so. I personally wouldn't buy an E46 over a 350Z, but I won't argue it's the better car. 

Disagree completely, the M3 with 60hp more is only a tiny fraction quicker than a DE at said track. So how will it maintain its advantage with way less power? Fact is this far superior car with alot more power is only .3sec per mile quicker at the Nurburgring.

 

Also Silverstone National is mainly straights into 3rd gear left corners, not very technical. 

 

Never said the 350z would be quicker, but it difference is from what one would expect for a far superior car with 60hp more over the other car. 

[Ekona]

I never said far superior. I said better in every measurable way, which it is. Where are you getting your lap times from?

 

Power isn't everything, just ask Caterham owners.

[Jetpilot]

I said it was far superior and to me if better in every measurable way, thats far superior, doesnt mean i want to own one though. 

 

Pinning it down to single lap times is just one dimension, it does not mean the chassis, gearbox, engine etc isnt better, you are just comparing a time, nothing with regards to how it may feel in steering, a slick gearbox and silky smooth engine, least of all interior quality. I would like to bet your average handy driver would find the m3 easier to drive near the limit and therefore quicker because of the confidence it inspires.

 

If you want lap times, get an elise, vx220, caterham, atom etc, in no shape or form does it make them a better car than a 350z or m3, just quicker round a track.

[davey_83]

1 hour ago, Ekona said:

I never said far superior. I said better in every measurable way, which it is. Where are you getting your lap times from?

 

Power isn't everything, just ask Caterham owners.

From Tsukba and Ring times. 

 

No, when the weights are near enough the same and one has 60hp less and laps times are very similar. I remain it's clearly not better in every way, however I've said my piece on the matter and backed up with facts not subjective feels or impressions.

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by davey_83

[docwra]

On 05/08/2018 at 10:57, davey_83 said:

Disagree completely, the M3 with 60hp more is only a tiny fraction quicker than a DE at said track.

The guys are being very polite here but Ive only got 10 minutes to finish my lunch. The above is wrong but this bit:

 

backed up with facts not subjective feels or impressions.

 

Is delusional. Ekona, me and about 25 other people I could pull out have driven both, on the road and in my case on the track and Im pretty sure they would all agree the E46 M3 is better in nearly every respect. The Zed has some positives, like being a purpose built sports coupe with amazing brakes, probably a better drift car in standard form but thats about it
Doesnt matter about Tsukuba laptimes, J. Clarksons opinion or what it cost to start with, drive one and then tell me its not as good. Likewise, some of the reasoning behind the 370 holding its value are comical, when a the HR's are holding money better then theres only one way thats going to go over the next few years.
 

We might all be surprised and 370 values might suddenly start shooting to the stars but I cant see why as they dont have the all round performance (M3), rarity (S13), folk legend (R34 or AE86) or were particularly sought after (Ford RS's) ...... and theres always going to be a Z33 available too. 

[Jetpilot]

A good point made in reference to me today regarding this topic which probably hasnt helped 2nd values is that they are punting Nismos out at £30k odd and seem to remember another fella looking at buying a new 370z at £23k with discounts and dealer contributions and suitably low apr, hopefully that might give you some more insight op. 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Jetpilot

[FallenAngelX]

On 01/08/2018 at 11:24, HRAB said:

Bought a 350 about 5 years ago. Sold it a year on for a similar price. 

 

Bought my 370 2 years ago and the prices people are putting up online seem really quite low! I don’t think I over paid at the time. 

 

Am I just imagining it?!

2 words. Depreciation curve.

On 01/08/2018 at 11:32, HRAB said:

Nah mines not new. 60 plate. I’m just surprised at how quickly and by the level of drop in value.  I’d expect it more for the newer cars. I guess I was kind of hoping the older 370s were close to their bottom as the 350s are.

Did you over pay? I have friends who bought around last year, and in that time prices have not moved at all.

On 02/08/2018 at 18:45, nissanjuke said:

the laws of supply and demand   

This has a huge part to play as well, as nice as the 370Z is, it does not have the same prestige as "PORSCHE" or "BMW" and thus lacks desirability for a lot of people no matter how good a car it is. 

On 02/08/2018 at 22:30, davey_83 said:

It'll come from folks wanting a big front engined naturally aspirated, 6 speed manual rwd sports car. A combination already rare to be had out the showroom. 

Enthusiasts crave this trait imo, the 370Z is a very old school car. Big NA engine, RWD, Fat tyres, Hydraulic steering. No fancy sport modes or electronics, just old school driving, how ever this is not something that appeals to everyone. Saying that I bet if BMW produced a similar car it would be "loved" by critics and people would flock to it lol.

On 04/08/2018 at 00:15, Ekona said:

Shock news, 100 Jap car fans in the UK don’t buy an M3  

 

I very much doubt the minuscule amount the 350 bought in had anything to do with bringing the GTR back, bearing in mind how long cars take to design and when the prototypes were first shown. 

Agreed, how ever the GTR may have a positive affect in terms of the "Prestige" factor of Nissan as a brand, or maybe not lol.....

On 04/08/2018 at 14:43, Jetpilot said:

Ive agreed with you dude, an M3 was in budget but i wanted a 350 (i am that man you describe), but no matter the romantic ideal of wanting a lesser car imho more characterful, i thought my my 350s were a pleasure to own, you cannot escape the facts and you only have to look at M3 prices now, opinions of being visually lost on the road has absolutely zero bearing on current prices or demand, surely that is clear, argue the merits of each car all day if you like and they were direct competition by the way but thats a completely different topic. We are talking values and demand and its clear because of the M3's prices in comparison to either z where that demand lies, there is no speculation, it is just the case plain and simple. Or lets ask another question, is there any Nissan Z car worth more than its counterpart M series? I will save you the time, No.

 

Hrab you are right, there is always an exception to the rule, NSX is a good example, low sales but now an appreciating classic and i shall choose my words carefully, if you honestly think the 370z has the merit of the NSX to break the rules, go buy a few and see how you get on in a few years. Regarding the HR, it is the best and last incarnation, thats where its value lies, same as the Spirit R Rx7.

 

There have been many cars that at the time were very poorly rated, yet later became classics, the automobile world can be odd at times. At the same time I can see your point about the M3 being a better car all round, refinement, speed, chassis, handling. But as an investment piece I wouldn't bet on it either. Way too many E92 M3's produced for it to ever appreciate, its just like most other mass produced cars.

On 04/08/2018 at 17:49, davey_83 said:

Whilst on the subject, I do struggle to see the 'far superior' car thought pattern. Just to add I've sat behind a M3 being driven very well round Silverstone national and it weren't getting away at all. Similar weight and giving up cicra 60hp, I weren't blown away. Also around the Nurburgring taking into consideration acceleration, braking, high speed corners, low speed corners - it's all of 4 seconds faster over the 13 miles.....

 

Reliability, we all know the horror stories of the S54 and rear subframe. It's not a far superior car. 

 

Subjective I know, but they don't sound a patch on the VQ35 either....  

 

Either the Z33 goes rounds bends faster or is better on the brakes. Saying as i see it.....

 

 

There is more to a car than speed. The Z34 platform has soul, the way it drives makes it something special. It has imperfections sure, but its part of what makes the it, it feels like a raw driving experience that is not matched by many other cars on the road today. An M3 technically is a better car in every aspect, but does it make you feel the same way, or are they just to clinical?

On 04/08/2018 at 18:37, Ekona said:

You do realise that those Best Motoring vids are the equivalent of a Top Gear challenge? 

 

You say say you’ve sat behind an M3, have you never driven one? It’s dangerousiy close to perfection for the money, only the brakes let it down. The chassis control is sublime. Honestly, I love the 350 but the M3 is better in every way outside of looks. 

The M3 is a very nice car, but its very different to a 370Z in terms of drive and feel. German cars are very clinical and precise, almost too the point of perfection. Japanese cars tend to be more around the soul of the car, the car culture, the way the car makes you feel. Two very different types of car. The M3 is no doubt the better car, but is it the more "enjoyable". 

[Ekona]

Rubbish. Jap cars got away with ‘soul’ because they had sh*t interiors, German cars got labelled as bland because they didn’t. I don’t buy into that at all, any car that’s fun has soul regardless of where it’s from. 

[FallenAngelX]

1 hour ago, Ekona said:

Rubbish. Jap cars got away with ‘soul’ because they had sh*t interiors, German cars got labelled as bland because they didn’t. I don’t buy into that at all, any car that’s fun has soul regardless of where it’s from. 

What? Most German cars are hardly better than Jap cars in terms of interiors, with the exception of Porsche which do have phenomenal interiors.  And most German cars are bland in the styling and excitement department no doubt about that. 

Anyhow we are going off topic here lol. 

[Ekona]

If you don’t think an E46 is a nicer place to be than a 350z, you need your eyes testing  

 

But yeah, we are some way off tangent here. All I know is that every German car I’ve owned has been equally as fun and soulful as anything Japanese, and I’ve had equal amounts of both (ish). 

[antnee]

9 hours ago, FallenAngelX said:

What? Most German cars are hardly better than Jap cars in terms of interiors, with the exception of Porsche which do have phenomenal interiors.  And most German cars are bland in the styling and excitement department no doubt about that. 

Anyhow we are going off topic here lol. 

I take it you don't work in the automotive industry or design   

[Jetpilot]

15 hours ago, FallenAngelX said:

What? Most German cars are hardly better than Jap cars in terms of interiors, with the exception of Porsche which do have phenomenal interiors.  And most German cars are bland in the styling and excitement department no doubt about that. 

Anyhow we are going off topic here lol. 

Nothing quite like sitting in  the luxury of a 350z with two massive slabs of plastic in front of the driver and passenger, two massive slabs of textured plastic for door cards and handles if you look in the rear view mirror, more textured plastic, at least they thought of adding some knobbles to plastic on the centre consul and gear surround, classy those Japanese 

[MDMetal]

The market is pretty clear as to the value of the e46 vs the 350z you can debate which is really nicer and everyone will have their own opinion but the market is pretty clear. Unless your holding something unique or something rare then it's down to what the wider world considers worth putting money into and classic bmws have for awhile now been safe bets

[MrLizard]

19 hours ago, Jetpilot said:

A good point made in reference to me today regarding this topic which probably hasnt helped 2nd values is that they are punting Nismos out at £30k odd and seem to remember another fella looking at buying a new 370z at £23k with discounts and dealer contributions and suitably low apr, hopefully that might give you some more insight op. 

I purchased a 18 plate 370z for less than your mentioned 23k direct from Nissan - I suspect im not helping the residuals - I was pushed hard towards the GT and the Nismo but stood my ground - got a base spec red one with black accents - 21.5k